Likely a stupid question, but I know in a sub panel the neutral and ground are not to be bonded. With my panel, both ground and neutral bars are isolated on plastic, so do I need to keep the ground bar connected to the panel or can I remove the entire bar used to bond the neutral and ground?
Load Center Wiring
- Thread starter FrkyMnky
- Start date
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
if your talking about the jumper between the ground and neutral bars it needs to be removed in a sub panel and i think the ground bar would be bonded to the panel.
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
i would say yes, the panel needs to be grounded.
thats what i have and it was inspected.
thats what i have and it was inspected.
That "ground bar" is really a split neutral bar so the neutrals can be landed on both sides (very handy), & a lot of people do not do it right when the jumper is removed, it's better to spend a few dollars for a ground bar kit it makes it EZ to do right.
Thanks for the heads up. I got excited when I saw it because I thought it was their ground bar kit already installed. Anyways, I have a Eaton CH 100a panel. After looking at it a little more, it looks like its not really designed to have two neutral bars. If I use the neutral strap to bond them together, I have to screw it into the case, which would in effect bond the neutral and ground once I get a new ground bar kit. I could buy a piece of aluminum and make a new strap long enough to reach both bars without having to screw it into the case, but its still directly resting on the case over punched holes, so it seems that wouldn't be a great idea either. I could also simply use a jumper wire to connect the two bars, however I am running 2-2-2-4 which would require me to buy two lug kits or downsize the wire to at least a #4.
Think you better post up PICTURES if you want to get best/accurate advice. Need picture of subpanel, at minimum.
Still doesn't sound quite right when considering current code for detached garage which must have 4 wire setup (from main panel in house, and be ONLY electrical supplied to detached garage) and also have 2 ground rods in soil at the detached garage. I'm no expert but I have read lots of posts by GJ guru's !!
Also electrical codes vary by location, so now would be good time to Update GJ Profile with your City / State / Country.
Still doesn't sound quite right when considering current code for detached garage which must have 4 wire setup (from main panel in house, and be ONLY electrical supplied to detached garage) and also have 2 ground rods in soil at the detached garage. I'm no expert but I have read lots of posts by GJ guru's !!
Also electrical codes vary by location, so now would be good time to Update GJ Profile with your City / State / Country.
Xtremetalworks2
Well-known member
The jumper is to be removed from the neutral to ground and if there is a screw grounding the neutral to the box its removed also! The neutral should not be bonded to ground on subpanel and ground should be grounded to the box which intern is grounded. Only time ground and neutral are bonded is on main panel. Common mistake alot of people make is bonding ground and neutral on sub's
dirtydogintex
Well-known member
For sub panels this is the easiest and quickest way to setup 'neutral' and 'ground' buses
- remove the factory installed jumper (usually a bar of sorts) between the two 'neutral'/'ground' buses
- install the bonding screw in the one bus to be used as 'ground'
- verify the other bus ('neutral') is isolated from 'ground' (no bonding screw installed)
Properly color code the incoming 'neutral' and 'ground' wires (usually white and green) and it's easy to tell which bus is what.... failing that it won't hurt to label the buses....
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Aceman
Well-known member
Post up some pics or at the very least maybe you can give us the model number and one of us can look up the specs.
I can't remember ever having to jump any neutral or ground bars together on a new install.
dirtydogintex
Well-known member
+1
Some of the responses are making this install more complicated/expensive than necessary....
Here you guys go.
The bar and ground post are just laid in their respective positions, but you guys should be able to get the point. Every other panel I have seen has the same bar going from neutral to neutral with black rubber around it and then you have the little ground post in a separate spot and you either keep that or remove it depending upon if you want them bonded or not. The way it looks like this was designed to work is to keep the bar running across screwed into the panel so I have ground on one side and a neutral on the other. I am fine with that as I will have few circuits, but it sounds like it is easier to have a neutral on both sides. So to do that, as best I can tell I would have to remove the bar going across since it isn't insulated and either find one from a different panel at the supply house, or run a jumper from one neutral to the other neutral bar. Then I would simply purchase a ground bar kit like most and be done with it. I have the same panel in the house except its a 200a and it has the insulated bar connecting the neutrals going all the way across. Hope this explains everything better.
The bar and ground post are just laid in their respective positions, but you guys should be able to get the point. Every other panel I have seen has the same bar going from neutral to neutral with black rubber around it and then you have the little ground post in a separate spot and you either keep that or remove it depending upon if you want them bonded or not. The way it looks like this was designed to work is to keep the bar running across screwed into the panel so I have ground on one side and a neutral on the other. I am fine with that as I will have few circuits, but it sounds like it is easier to have a neutral on both sides. So to do that, as best I can tell I would have to remove the bar going across since it isn't insulated and either find one from a different panel at the supply house, or run a jumper from one neutral to the other neutral bar. Then I would simply purchase a ground bar kit like most and be done with it. I have the same panel in the house except its a 200a and it has the insulated bar connecting the neutrals going all the way across. Hope this explains everything better.
Also, once you get over 6 circuits you need "master" shutoff so a single throw can kill power to the entire detached garage.
What wire is feeding this subpanel ??
What Amps are you trying to obtain at subpanel??
What breaker is on other end in the main panel??
What country ?? Are you getting a permit, or involving an electrician??
What wire is feeding this subpanel ??
What Amps are you trying to obtain at subpanel??
What breaker is on other end in the main panel??
What country ?? Are you getting a permit, or involving an electrician??
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
If this is a sub panel, the bar connecting the neutral bars either needs to be insulated or removed and a different method should be used to connect the bars together. Most panels that have a neutral bus connecting bar will have rubber wrapped around them if they come in contact with the can. There should NOT be ANY screws bonding these to 2 bars to the can!
Hopefully your feeder wire is 4-wire- 2 hots, neutral and EGC/ground!
Add 2 ground bars, one on each side of the panel, which will help keep the panel clean as ground wires wont have to cross from one side to the other!
Hopefully your feeder wire is 4-wire- 2 hots, neutral and EGC/ground!
Add 2 ground bars, one on each side of the panel, which will help keep the panel clean as ground wires wont have to cross from one side to the other!
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Xtremetalworks2
Well-known member
The neutral is on the right or top of the picture hence the larger lug at the top ! The ground is the bar on the left side of the panel or bottom of the picture..They are currently bonded with the cross bar you will want to remove the bar if this is a sub-panel from which I have read it is! Then what I would do is goto lowes or Home depot and pick up a ground terminal kit which is under ten bucks !
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Due to the poor picture/lighting, i couldnt tell if the bar on the bottom was on risers or not...
The 100 amp at the top of the breaker is the main. I don't know how much I like this design as I was expecting a dedicated breaker where there would be main lugs. I was going to go with the Square D QO 100a panel, but the rear knockouts weren't large enough for 2" and I wasn't very found of the stacked neutral/ground bars. I also wasn't a too found of all of the plastic.This is actually a very nice panel, heavier than the same size Square D and is a copper bus.
This will be a sub-panel. The neutral and ground bars will not be bonded. I have a few options on how to run this.
-I can leave it the way it is without the bond bar and have neutral only on one side while picking up a ground bar kit from Lowes.
-I can put the bond bar back without the little bracket that actually bonds both bars, screw it back into the panel and I will have a ground on one side and a neutral on the other. Not sure how much I like this idea as I would prefer to minimize connections.
-I can pick up a ground bar kit, put that on one side and then run a jumper wire going from one neutral bar to the other neutral bar. I would have neutral bars on both sides while only having ground on one side.
-Finally, I can try and locate the insulated aluminum bar that comes on the larger Eaton panels to connect both neutral bars. Then I can buy a ground bar kit and would have neutral on both sides and ground on the other. I like this option the best as its most factory.
Only real questions I have are which one would be best as far as making wiring simpler and if I pick up two ground bar kits, will the screws that are used to mount it be enough to connect both bars or would I need to run jumper wire from one to the other? I have only seen panels with one ground bar kit and I only have one wire coming in so not sure what would be the preferred way to have two.
BTW, I am in Goldsboro, NC and will be doing the wiring myself. It will be "inspected" by an electrician once done. We are on NEC2011.
This will be a sub-panel. The neutral and ground bars will not be bonded. I have a few options on how to run this.
-I can leave it the way it is without the bond bar and have neutral only on one side while picking up a ground bar kit from Lowes.
-I can put the bond bar back without the little bracket that actually bonds both bars, screw it back into the panel and I will have a ground on one side and a neutral on the other. Not sure how much I like this idea as I would prefer to minimize connections.
-I can pick up a ground bar kit, put that on one side and then run a jumper wire going from one neutral bar to the other neutral bar. I would have neutral bars on both sides while only having ground on one side.
-Finally, I can try and locate the insulated aluminum bar that comes on the larger Eaton panels to connect both neutral bars. Then I can buy a ground bar kit and would have neutral on both sides and ground on the other. I like this option the best as its most factory.
Only real questions I have are which one would be best as far as making wiring simpler and if I pick up two ground bar kits, will the screws that are used to mount it be enough to connect both bars or would I need to run jumper wire from one to the other? I have only seen panels with one ground bar kit and I only have one wire coming in so not sure what would be the preferred way to have two.
BTW, I am in Goldsboro, NC and will be doing the wiring myself. It will be "inspected" by an electrician once done. We are on NEC2011.
I put it back the way it is shipped and took a better picture since there was some confusion.
Both bars are isolated except for the flat aluminum bar running underneath. If I remove the little bracket on the right side then the left is connected to the case by the green screw. If I remove both the bar and the bracket, then both bars are isolated from the case. There is no way for me to connect both bars without buying something else or using a jumper wire. I understand how everything works just fine, but I lack the experience so I was hoping you guys would chime in as to the preferred way to setup this panel.
Xtremetalworks2
Well-known member
Personally I would buy 2 ground terminal kits @ 6.97 ea have one on the right side of the box one on the left side. leave the "jumper" bar currently thats bonding neutral and ground and call these your Neutral lugs anything coming into left side all wires run cleanly up left and right on right and label your 2 ground terminals . Will provide a cleaner look as Wylie stated above
I can't just leave the bar because not only is the bar bonding both sides, on the right it is screwed into the case.
Here is a good picture to show it mounted to the case.
This is how my large panel at the house is setup. You can see the bar going from one side to the other except its covered in black rubber. It also doesn't stop short of the other side and isn't screwed into the case.
Also, if I buy two ground kits, do I need to run a jumper from one to the other or will the mounting screws and panel be enough of a bond?
No need to buy any additional bars.
Remove the flat aluminum bar between the bars.
Take the "Z" bracket, put it on the left bar where the flat bar was attached. There should be a threaded hole under the flat bar. Now you bonded the bar (left) to the panel which made it into a ground bar.
There is nothing wrong with a main breaker in a sub panel but not required. It might be required where the sub panel is being installed.
Billy T.
gnxtc2@aolcom
After all of the comments about having neutrals/ground on both sides, that was really the only reason I was questioning best way to bond both bars and buying a separate ground bar kit. It was designed to work as is, I just wasn't sure if that was the best way to have it setup and don't mind spending $10 if it will make wiring simpler.
Xtremetalworks2
Well-known member
Normally you lose the bar thats bonding neutral to ground and ground still stays attached to the panel for a sub panel app like yours. I personally like additional ground terminals just to keep a cleaner look just my preference! to prevent it from looking like a rats nest. lol and yes I would run a jumper ground wire btwn the two ground terminals! You do have your sub panel ground going direct to ground rod correct?
Don't need a ground rod unless the sub panel is in a detached structure, seperate from the main.
Billy T.
[email protected]
Xtremetalworks2
Well-known member
Guess I assumed it was in a detached...sorry
You are correct
You are correct
It is in a detached structure, I am running 4 wire 2-2-2-4 and there will be 2 ground rods driven in connected with #6. I haven't wired anything yet or even mounted the panel. I just got it shipped on Friday. While I am asking questions, and getting a little confused with the responses, I connect the ground #4 from the main to the ground bar, and then also connect the #6 from the ground rods to the same ground bar, correct?
Xtremetalworks2
Well-known member
Yes that is correct ! Are you still confused on the ground and neutral ?
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
just curious how many feet is it from the main panel to the sub panel
Nope not confused. Just with everything that was being said, it was making me second guess. I found everything I needed though. If I want to have both sides neutral, I can run a jumper wire between the two bars and be just fine. I can also run one or two ground bar kits and the mounting bolts into the panel will work for bonding them together. I set it up for now by bonding one of the bars to the panel for ground and isolating the other. If I feel its a PITA while wiring to have neutral on one side and ground on the other ill figure out what I want to do then.
As for distance, its 180' or so. I will be putting a 60a breaker in the main to limit voltage loss and because its a lot cheaper than a 70 or 90a. I should never be pulling more than 45a at a time and that is on the high side.
As for distance, its 180' or so. I will be putting a 60a breaker in the main to limit voltage loss and because its a lot cheaper than a 70 or 90a. I should never be pulling more than 45a at a time and that is on the high side.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I put it back the way it is shipped and took a better picture since there was some confusion.
Both bars are isolated except for the flat aluminum bar running underneath. If I remove the little bracket on the right side then the left is connected to the case by the green screw. If I remove both the bar and the bracket, then both bars are isolated from the case. There is no way for me to connect both bars without buying something else or using a jumper wire. I understand how everything works just fine, but I lack the experience so I was hoping you guys would chime in as to the preferred way to setup this panel.
Ok so my first comment was right. I went back and edited my comment #15.
The jumper bar is touching the can. It cant be left in place connected to the neutral bus bar!
I can't just leave the bar because not only is the bar bonding both sides, on the right it is screwed into the case.
Here is a good picture to show it mounted to the case.
This is how my large panel at the house is setup. You can see the bar going from one side to the other except its covered in black rubber. It also doesn't stop short of the other side and isn't screwed into the case.
Also, if I buy two ground kits, do I need to run a jumper from one to the other or will the mounting screws and panel be enough of a bond?
Is this panel in your house the main service panel or a subpanel?
A breaker is required in a subpanel in a DETACHED structure if there are more than 6 breaker handles!