Locating buries irrigation valves

[Dolfan]

I'm hoping the knowledge base here has dealt with the same issue I have. I need to find a irrigation valve as one zone, #4, is tripping the system and it is most likely that valve.

I have 5 zones, 3 valves are located about 15 feet from the shut-off valve and both are next to my driveway in the front of the house. Zones 4 and 5 were added just before moving in as the builder only did the front of the house, but I had the same contractor finish it and add the back zones. But, I didn't realize until now, THEY DIDN'T PUT THE NEW VALVES INTO ACCESS BOXES! The #4 zone is in the back of my house at least 60-75 feet from the location of the 3 valves in the front.

I have purchased on of these from Amazon but just can't get any clear signals to help me, or I'm just doing it wrong! I can run zones 1-3 but as soon as #4 is signaled the small fuse in the controller blows

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0086GE2C2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

Just looking for some helpful tips to try to find a way to find this valve. Any help would be appreciated

 

[flat tire]

do you have a dowser in your area ?
he/she could find it

 

[volleyball]

Contact the installer and have him show you the box or valve location

 

[Dolfan]

do you have a dowser in your area ?
he/she could find it

What is a dowser????

 

[Dolfan]

do you have a dowser in your area ?
he/she could find it

Contact the installer and have him show you the box or valve location

I contacted the contractor but it has been many years, I was just hoping maybe they had a record of the job and maybe some notes.

 

[RossABQ]

Are the lines PVC? That tool won't find them.

Do you know where the valve is tied in to the water supply? Start there and start digging. Or follow the wires.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Finding a Radio Sahck will be harder than finding the valve

 

[WhiffySpark]

Call an irrigation contractor. They can find it

 

[sselander]

When my dad repaired these, he would put a crushed soda can near the box to locate it later with a metal detector.

 

[Cyberbear]

This may not work in your case but we used a small metal rod with a tee handle which we used to pierce the soil until we hit something solid, but didn't push so hard as to damage anything. It wasn't that difficult with moist dirt, and it sure beat digging up the yard.

 

[wasfuzz]

If you really are in dire need contact a local electrician who does underground locating. They can come out clip in to the control wire with the "proper" freq. on the locator and tell you where it is. Not cheap - but reliable. When I first retired I worked as a locator for our local utility company. I have seen people open up a pvc line, shove a metal fish tape down the line and locate that with a metal detector. When I redid mine I put a locate wire in the trench with the pvc pipe.

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

Sounds like you're not using the locator properly.

It shouldn't be blowing any fuses. You need to disconnect the wires for the zone you're looking for from the controller.

Hook the leads from the locator signal generator to those wires; now go out in the yard with the signal reader and find the wires. Once you locate where they start you should be able to trace down the valve rather quickly.

Installers like to run pipe as straight as possible, so once you establish a line you can narrow down the location pretty quick. Though this doesn't need to be stated but, once you find the valve put it in an access box. But also measure from two fixed points and draw a map- keep the map in the controller box. This was one thing that my irrigation contractor always did. That probably saved him 100's of service calls a year.

 

[premierplayer]

yes, disconnect the z4 wire from the controler before attaching the signal generator
the SG can damage the circuit board

listen for the clicking made by the valve on/off is another good option
you can disconnect the z4 wire from the terminal, set the controler to manual on z4 and have a helper touch the wire to the terminal on/off rapidly so you get a click click click click while you listen in the yard, get the idea?

you'll usually find a valve box under some grown over turf or covered with several seasons of mulch

 

[flat tire]

QUOTE:A dowser is a person who believes he can find your valve using sticks. About the same as believing prayer will lead you to it.
We've had this discussion before.
There's an unclaimed million dollar bounty on proof that dowsing works.
It's a uoiji board for landscape
laugh all you want. it does work. fyi you don't use sticks to find metal!
I have been called upon many times to find water or to find buried items and I have yet to fail

 

[Dolfan]

yes, disconnect the z4 wire from the controler before attaching the signal generator
the SG can damage the circuit board

listen for the clicking made by the valve on/off is another good option
you can disconnect the z4 wire from the terminal, set the controler to manual on z4 and have a helper touch the wire to the terminal on/off rapidly so you get a click click click click while you listen in the yard, get the idea?

you'll usually find a valve box under some grown over turf or covered with several seasons of mulch

OK, I should have noted more about what I have done.

First off I'm in the Atlanta area and digging in this clay is brutal, and even piercing the ground is tough, so I'd like to narrow down my dig as much as possible.

When using the locator I always disconnect the zone 4 signal wire from the controller, and then I've tried two ways. One I have put the ground wire from the transmitter onto the common wire that goes to all zones, the other is the method to drive a long screw driver into the ground and connect the wire there.

The issue I have had is that I seem to get a signal near my 3 known valves even though I'm looking for zone 4. I can trace the wire out of the garage for about 8-10' until it goes under a sidewalk then it goes under brush and then across the concrete driveway to the other side where the 1-3 valves are.

I guess at this point I need to just try with the locator a few more times to see if I can find anything????

The only other known item I have with the zone 4 is the location of the heads, is there any trick like pulling one of those and pushing compressed air back into the system or something else. Just trying to brainstorm now!

 

[Dolfan]

Also, I can't listen for any clicking on Zone #4 as immediately when it switches to that zone the fuse blows. The owners manual says this is likely a short in that line or failed solenoid.

 

[ishiboo]

Hire a utility locator. It will take them 5 minutes. They have much more expensive, sensitive equipment for locating it.

 

[volleyball]

You know where it leaves the building, you know the general direction. It cannot be deep if they didn't install a box.

 

[Lassen Forge]

BEFORE you start the "great chase" below, get your replacement solenoid valve (you have to get it anyway, right?), unhook station 4 from the controller, hook up the replacement solenoid valve (you don't need a lot of wire to do this - a couple feet or so will do), run thru the cycle, and and see if the fuse still blows with the new solenoid hooked up. If it does, the problem is in your CONTROLLER and you may have saved yourself a boatload of hassle. (And yes, controllers go sour on occasion).

Lets say it didn't blow, meaning you have shown the fault is in the wires or solenoid. The steps to take are as follows...

(1) call the person who installed it (that was the best suggestion by far)... Hopefully they made notes, drew up a plan, something. Or they have a good memory.

(2) If your installer fails, or was a kid, or does so much work they don't remember one install from the other, next down the list is to hire an electrician or a good landscaper electrician (or pal who works for ma bell ) that has a "Crybaby" and see if they can chase the wires for station 4 from the controller to the solenoid valve... or to where the wires are broken. (A crybaby hooks to and sends a modulated signal through a wire, and is paired with an audio box or receiver with a directional antenna. Unless you're buried deep, these usually will find the wire to where a break occurs.)

(3) If they can't locate it this way, then you get to dig. It's a slow, meticulous, and (usually) a day or 2 job. I did this more than once on a freeway interchange (that's how I started my current job - amazing how a sol box will get buried over time!) and believe me, it *****. NOT a fun job. Anyway, Start from the controller, unhook #4 (you already did this), make DAMNED SURE you've got the right wire, and slowly and gently (all day job at best) dig by hand, using the wire as a guide (DON'T JERK ON THE WIRE, NO MATTER HOW TEMPTED YOU MAY BE!!), to the solenoid. Unless the wire broke and you can't pick it up again (not very common, but it could be your short), it will lead you to the solenoid valve. Just be damned sure you have the right wire.

(4) This is the suckiest option, even worse that #3, but it may be the only one you got if none of the above worked. IF you know which sprinklers Station 4 runs, take an educated guess which one is likeliest to be closest to the solenoid and start backdigging the water line until you get to your solenoid. You WILL find it this way, but there is a chance that you will end up digging up the entire water system for station 4. Yeah, I got to do this one ONE TIME, and I swore (a lot, er, um) I would NEVER go thru that ******** futile exercise again. It took... 6 full 8 hour days to find that solenoid box, buried under 9" of gravelly dirt *and* 2" of an asphalt parking pad. It was a really good motivational tool for me to either transfer, promote, or do something else.

:A dowser is a person who believes he can find your valve using sticks... It's a uoiji board for landscape

laugh all you want. it does work. fyi you don't use sticks to find metal!
I have been called upon many times to find water... and I have yet to fail

Me too. Been able to do it as long as I remember. Did it through my teens and early 20's, and even once for an irrigation well when I was about 30. Strangely enough, I hadn't used it (or even thought about it) for decades, when we had to do the location for our new well, it hit me - I tried it, and sure enough, 220 feet, 30+ GPM sustained flow rate. I found an alternate spot as well (actually better) and a couple likely candidates, but didn't want to run electric and water lines across 2 acres.

I know, it doesn't seem like it makes ANY sense, it's like flipping voodoo , I've heard all kinds of explanations that are then debunked (someone should give a million dollar reward to explain how and why it works), some are just hokey... I just know from experience it works. Don't know how or why, just that it does - for me at least.

 

[flat tire]

whether you believe or not. there is a lot of things that can not be explained, even by you.
can you explain why it will not work.
your theory of a bag of water buried is ludicrous. dowsing is not about finding mud puddles
some to this day believe man was never on the moon, are you one of them?
you may have the last word, because I was taught never to argue with a fool. because they will bring you down to their level

 

[Mongo68]

Will this work? Pull one of the sprinkler heads from zone 4 and stick a metal fish tape in there and hope there arent any 90's. Then use the locator to find the fishtape?

 

[Dolfan]

BEFORE you start the "great chase" below, get your replacement solenoid valve (you have to get it anyway, right?), unhook station 4 from the controller, hook up the replacement solenoid valve (you don't need a lot of wire to do this - a couple feet or so will do), run thru the cycle, and and see if the fuse still blows with the new solenoid hooked up. If it does, the problem is in your CONTROLLER and you may have saved yourself a boatload of hassle. (And yes, controllers go sour on occasion).

This is a good option that I need to vet, but I can do it possibly as easy as pulling zone #5 out and moving it over to zone #4, if I then have zone 4 it has to be from the #4 wire to the solenoid where my problem is!

Thanks, move to do and of course we are in a drought! Rain would be a great temporary fix to all this!

 

[premierplayer]

you own a multimeter?
if so, detach the common wire and zone 4 wire from the controler
you should read 20 - 60 ohm on a good selenoid

here's a little more troubleshooting info
http://www.wplawinc.com/irrigation-trouble-shooting-guide.htm

as for controler going out on error trying to click, click, click using zone 4 wire, try using zone 5 wire, chances are very good both add on rear valves are in the same location

Weathermatic controlers have a valve chatter feature in their more recent clocks, which is really the click, click, click thing I am trying to convey.

6.2.4 LOCATOR
This feature will create a
“chatter” for a selected
valve as a convenient
method of locating buried
valves. Use NEXT and
BACK buttons to scroll to the
valve you want to “chatter.”

 

[NotEnough]

I rented from these guys when i needed to find a valve. Looks to be a bigger version of what you bought.

http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Irrigation-Rental-Equipment-s/7214.htm

 

[Dolfan]

you own a multimeter?
if so, detach the common wire and zone 4 wire from the controler
you should read 20 - 60 ohm on a good selenoid

here's a little more troubleshooting info
http://www.wplawinc.com/irrigation-trouble-shooting-guide.htm

as for controler going out on error trying to click, click, click using zone 4 wire, try using zone 5 wire, chances are very good both add on rear valves are in the same location

Weathermatic controlers have a valve chatter feature in their more recent clocks, which is really the click, click, click thing I am trying to convey.

Yes I do have a multi-meter so I'll check this based on you input, thanks!

 

[Dolfan]

I rented from these guys when i needed to find a valve. Looks to be a bigger version of what you bought.

http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Irrigation-Rental-Equipment-s/7214.htm

I tried to find one of these from my local rental place but they didn't have it.

 

[James E]

I don't believe, I'm not caring enough to disbelieve(which is a much greater task than belief) I want to be able to take a stance. Logic dictates the stance cannot be placed without facts, or it's religious belief not truth.

I disbelieve dowsing.

If Flat Tire can call you a fool because you do not believe in a thing that cannot be proven, then I can use the same burden of proof to justify my disbelief. It's only fair.

whether you believe or not. there is a lot of things that can not be explained, even by you.
can you explain why it will not work.
your theory of a bag of water buried is ludicrous. dowsing is not about finding mud puddles
some to this day believe man was never on the moon, are you one of them?
you may have the last word, because I was taught never to argue with a fool. because they will bring you down to their level

Ducks might be using argumentum ad logicam, but in your response, I'm seeing argumentum ad ignorantiam AND straw man fallacies. You can't combat a logical fallacy with two of your own.

 

[Capegls]

I was looking for my valves to get them into a in ground box. When I bought the house the previous owner gave me a rough idea (front yard near driveway.) I attempted to call the installer, but he was no longer in business. I paid a company to blow out my lines one fall, and they narrowed it down to (near the driveway light pole.) I turned the system on (zone in the back yard) and put my ear to the ground and was able to hear the humming of the valve, and ended up finding them. Maybe this would work?

 

[dodgejunkie]

Are zones 4&5 fed from the same manifold, or do they originate from a different location? If not, the valve should be close to the others.

 

[WhiffySpark]

Jesus Christ this is crazy

Call a professional. $300 or spend 2 weeks dicking around shoveling up half your yard. Take your pick

Some of these suggestions are borderline insane. Dig the pipe up from the head back ? I wouldn't wish that on anyone lol

 

[Dolfan]

Well pulling the #5 zone wire and putting in in as #4 then the program runs fine, so I think it is safe to say it is either the #4 valve or the #4 wire, as I would suspect they are sharing the same common wire. Now just to find it!

 

[Dolfan]

Jesus Christ this is crazy

Call a professional. $300 or spend 2 weeks dicking around shoveling up half your yard. Take your pick

Some of these suggestions are borderline insane. Dig the pipe up from the head back ? I wouldn't wish that on anyone lol

Sorry but I don't pick up the phone immediately when something is wrong. I was taught to try to fend for myself and have mechanical and electrical aptitude to do so. By the way no shovel has been used yet, all diagnosis.

It's only the sprinkler system, not what I would call a mission critical system for the house. If my main electric or plumbing was out that would be different.

I do almost all the work on my race cars so I can afford that sport, and have the peace of mind that it is done right when I crawl in it to go! I not the guy who just write checks! And I know the majority of folks on this site are similar, hard working, ingenious, skilled folks.

 

[Dolfan]

Testing the circuits I get about 47ohms on a working circuit and on the #4 circuit I get 14.7ohms

 

[premierplayer]

#4 solenoid is bad

let us know how the locate turns out

 

[Dolfan]

Well with a little more investigation I found that of the three valves in the boxes I have they are actually for zones #3, #4, #5! I had my wife turn on the controller while I was there to listen and actually feel the valves go. Then once I thought I had #4 I turned the solenoid manually and got zone 4 working.

So it looks like I won't be digging after all, well at least until I have to find #1 or #2.

 

[CNGsaves]

Maybe I'm missing something but the valves HAVE to have wires from controller (ie brain box) to the valves themselves. You should be able to use metal detector and follow the wires. . . . . right ??

 

[Dolfan]

I guess if I had a metal detector that would also work. For now I don't need to find valves #1 and #2, just hope they don't encounter issues.

 

[Falcon67]

HF sells a cheap metal detector. I used one to locate the lot pins. Not sure if it'll locate on wire. The valves in our system are nearly 100% plastic so I know it would not work there unless it would alert on the coil. If I get time tonight I'll try it.

Something else you can try if you have some idea where the pipe goes - thin 1/4" steel rod with an L bend on top. Start stabbing the ground to find the pipe, set some markers (rocks, etc) and start working your way down the pipe.

OR - start a project like a basketball goal or a flag pole. You'll find a water pipe nearly guaranteed.