Long run to creek pump

[Innovate1]

I have a small stream I pump out of to irrigate a few things in the summer and pull the pump in the winter. Before anyone tells me I need a permit to pump that's not the case in my state but I realize some places have severe restrictions, you can't catch rain water, etc. That's a whole issue I don't want to get into.

I am asking what would be possible ways to run power to the pump. It is currently on a GFCI breaker and is 230V. I currently have some extensions cords and some black poly plumbing pipe for some protection from animals just laying on the surface. It has a some teeth marks in places from opossums I think. My understanding is that this meets code if it is temporary - which is defined I think as 90 days or less. It goes through a forested area. Power feed is buried across the lawn with receptacle at the edge of the lawn area where it becomes forest then on the surface from there. I suppose I could have directional boring done but thinking that would be prohibitively expensive - looking for a lower cost solution.

The GFCI is tripping and have determined it is in the cabling not the pump so I need to make cable repairs and thinking about how I might upgrade this. Looking for some ideas of how to do this and still be reasonably safe if not completely to code. The run is about 200 feet. Current is about 8 amps.

 

[FredWanaker]

are you asking how to use a shovel, stop possums from chewing, buy conduit, dig a trench etc., I don't quite understand the question?

 

[Innovate1]

are you asking how to use a shovel, stop possums from chewing, buy conduit, dig a trench etc., I don't quite understand the question?

I do know how to use a shovel but I am always open to further instruction. Would need to have a demonstration and I am a slow learner so if you could demonstrate I would probably need to see the whole 200' done before I fully understand.
Possums gonna chew - not much to do about that except use things that are less desirable/harder to chew. Just laying out some of the observed issues with the current arrangement. I do know how to use a shovel BTW but not doing that for 200 feet through tree roots.

One additional detail I left out is that there is about 80 feet of drop along the run in very uneven terrain. Very little rock but the terrain makes ditching impractical IMHO. Thus the mention of boring.

I am just looking for ideas on how to run power to a pump that needs 240V at 8A that is 200' from and 80' below the power source that is at least somewhat close to meeting code, minimizing danger (think the GFCI largely covers that aspect) and keeping the cost down but not completely cheaping out. Overhead is a possiblity. Lots of trees in the area - don't think that is technically allowed for such supports although it's just remote enough that no one is going to be checking that. I could go with heavier wall poly pipe - again, it's technically not allowed as conduit but would be ok I think if the cord was allowed without cover and it was only for protection. Running strands of THWN would be cheaper than 3 stand cord but getting farther from code. To make the run across the ground meet code I would need to use electrical conduit and attach that to a running board? That would get expensive.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Use the poly pipe and THWN !

 

[Innovate1]

Use the poly pipe and THWN !

Yes. I am thinking of using thicker wall poly to help with the varmits. It is 0.060" wall 100 psi now. 200 psi is 0.120" and 250 psi is 0.150. The current stuff has teeth scrape marks in a number of places but not terribly deep. They did manage to put a puncture hole in the same stuff used for the water line one time. So the thicker stuff should be good for a very long time. I did find one small irregular hole but it was at the top of the pipe so seemed unlikely to have caused wire damage. I'm going to pull the wire and figure out where the issue with leakage current to ground is. Maybe it was smaller bugs that got in and caused some wire damage.

 

[FredWanaker]

in a wooded area I would be concerned about tree limbs falling on it if overhead. As to above ground conduit, it will depend on local codes according to research. Articles say the NEC allows it but some locales do not. They can also specify how it must be configured above ground. This assumes you own and control the land it will be on.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What is the HP rating on the pump?

 

[Shiftless]

Would you consider omitting the GFCI? What is the electrocution danger in that area?
Is GFCI even required for that in your area?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Would you consider omitting the GFCI? What is the electrocution danger in that area?
Is GFCI even required for that in your area?

I definitely wouldnt eliminate the GFCI. its tripping for a reason and eliminating it is a good way to shock someone.

if its tripping, theres either a ground fault hazard or its defective. if the latter, then replace it. but dont eliminate it

 

[Innovate1]

1 Hp. I measured the leakage current in the brief time before the GFCI tripped. 50 mA. That's 10x the GFCI limit. There is definitely some issue with the cable. I haven't had any issues with GFCI until recently - it may have tripped a time or two over the years but very infrequent. It's a somewhat remote area but I would still like to keep GFCI - seems like a good thing given the water and all.

 

[nadogail]

An Isolation Transformer might help.

 

[tncatadjuster]

Would a ram pump work? No electricity needed.

 

[Innovate1]

Would a ram pump work? No electricity needed.

Neighbor is planning to do that. Neat idea but doesn't give the flow I need for some things.

 

[walta]

Do you own enough ground up stream to skip the pump and do a gravity system?

Note if you put an isolation transformer in the circuit you have more or less disabled the GFIC ability to detect a fault that could people from a shock. Yes, it would require one additional fault if you install a transformer.



Walta

 

[Innovate1]

Do you own enough ground up stream to skip the pump and do a gravity system?

Note if you put an isolation transformer in the circuit you have more or less disabled the GFIC ability to detect a fault that could people from a shock. Yes, it would require one additional fault if you install a transformer.



Walta

It's Illinois. I would almost have to be in the next county to have that much drop. Where I lived in Oregon growing up that's how we got all our water from a stream.

 

[Innovate1]

I got the wire pulled. Had some trouble pulling it out and flushed the pipe with water which helped greatly. Think I must have had some ant nest or some bug stuff in the pipe. Now I can look it over when it is light and measure for length to replace things.

Here's a question for the pros - since this run is about 30 degrees downhill how do I restrain the wires at the top end so they don't slowly creep down the hill and eventually pull on the terminals they are connected to? Also thinking it might make sense to put a watertight box on the bottom end so any moisture or whatever that gets in the conduit doesn't flow directly into the pump connection box. The connection is on the side and I put a dip in the conduit and a couple small holes in the bottom of the dip to let it out but think they got plugged up. Any connection box should shed water, have some way to drain small amounts of moisture, but prevent bugs from getting in if it's possible to have all those.

 

[racecougar]

It isn't code, but nothing about this is: if you're fighting rodents, and you can't bury, consider switching from poly to EMT. Use a strain relief.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Here's a question for the pros - since this run is about 30 degrees downhill how do I restrain the wires at the top end so they don't slowly creep down the hill and eventually pull on the terminals they are connected to?

Remove the wires. Pull them through again with a good quality, preferably nylon, messenger rope that you leave in the pipe. Same as what the do with a well pump. Make sure it is tied securely at the top.

Also thinking it might make sense to put a watertight box on the bottom end so any moisture or whatever that gets in the conduit doesn't flow directly into the pump connection box. The connection is on the side and I put a dip in the conduit and a couple small holes in the bottom of the dip to let it out but think they got plugged up. Any connection box should shed water, have some way to drain small amounts of moisture, but prevent bugs from getting in if it's possible to have all those.

You DEFINTELY need some way for water to escape that conduit ! You are going to be fitting Mother Nature and all of the bug who want to crawl in there !

 

[Innovate1]

Remove the wires. Pull them through again with a good quality, preferably nylon, messenger rope that you leave in the pipe. Same as what the do with a well pump. Make sure it is tied securely at the top.

You DEFINTELY need some way for water to escape that conduit ! You are going to be fitting Mother Nature and all of the bug who want to crawl in there !

It's the details of securing at the top that I am asking about. Some people just say tie a knot in the wires. For bigger wires and conduits there are wedge devices.

And on the water escaping I know that too. How to do these things is the question...

 

[racecougar]

It's the details of securing at the top that I am asking about. Some people just say tie a knot in the wires. For bigger wires and conduits there are wedge devices.

As mentioned above, you're looking for a strain relief.

 

[Innovate1]

What about using flexible conduit like used for equipment whips for this? Is that only code for short runs like between a disconnect and AC outdoor unit? I could run that the whole way - would probably need to put in a few joints for 220 feet. And I could put it in poly pipe for extra varmit protection.

 

[Copymutt]

You can buy a lot of gasoline for what it’s gonna cost to make the electric set up bullet proof. I flood irrigate 2 acres via a cheap HF 5hp gas pump. 8 yrs old now no issues, ever. Yeah you gotta make trips to feed it, start it & stop it.

 

[Zeke]

Sealtite type of flexible conduit is expensive. Like 3X that of EMT.

 

[dave*99]

At the pump end, install a PVC box. Cap a piece of conduit and bury it as an earth spike (no wire inside). Run your cable into the other hole through a second conduit. Install a WR receptacle and an in use cover.

 

[Innovate1]

Sealtite type of flexible conduit is expensive. Like 3X that of EMT.

I must be looking at different stuff. This is what I am looking at. I think it's pretty soft, thus the thought of inserting it into a poly pipe for physical protection. But it is meant for electrical so thinking that might actually be to code or at least closer than just poly pipe. And it's in stock locally. The thicker poly that uses insert fittings so would be easy to run into a electric box is about 10 days out.
https://www.menards.com/main/electr...c-conduit/58046201/p-1444442916472-c-6423.htm

 

[Innovate1]

At the pump end, install a PVC box. Cap a piece of conduit and bury it as an earth spike (no wire inside). Run your cable into the other hole through a second conduit. Install a WR receptacle and an in use cover.

Not planning a plug at the pump. I am thinking a box to terminate the long run would be good and then a short whip to the pump. This box is overkill but it would give room to add things and just has standard knockouts for the conduit termination and whip. If I could find a similar smaller box I would use that.
https://www.menards.com/main/electr...ll-box/rsc060604rc/p-1444451780546-c-6425.htm

 

[Zeke]

That is a good price, I didn't check them.

 

[Innovate1]

You can buy a lot of gasoline for what it’s gonna cost to make the electric set up bullet proof. I flood irrigate 2 acres via a cheap HF 5hp gas pump. 8 yrs old now no issues, ever. Yeah you gotta make trips to feed it, start it & stop it.

It's worked fine until now with minimal fuss for 5 years and I can turn it on from my phone. Just need to fix up the power feed.

 

[dave*99]

I must be looking at different stuff. This is what I am looking at. I think it's pretty soft, thus the thought of inserting it into a poly pipe for physical protection. But it is meant for electrical so thinking that might actually be to code or at least closer than just poly pipe. And it's in stock locally. The thicker poly that uses insert fittings so would be easy to run into a electric box is about 10 days out.
https://www.menards.com/main/electr...c-conduit/58046201/p-1444442916472-c-6423.htm

You will struggle to pull wire through very long lengths of that stuff.

 

[FredWanaker]

You will struggle to pull wire through very long lengths of that stuff.

good timing to train the gopher to help you pull it

 

[Copymutt]

Generous amounts if wire lube will help.

 

[walta]

It's Illinois. I would almost have to be in the next county to have that much drop. Where I lived in Oregon growing up that's how we got all our water from a stream.

One additional detail I left out is that there is about 80 feet of drop along the run in very uneven terrain. Very little rock but the terrain makes ditching impractical IMHO. Thus the mention of boring.

I guess I miss understood.

 

[yatg]

Get a roll of 12/2 stranded MC. $289 at Lowes for 250'.

• Applicable in exposed, concealed, wet, and other hazardous environments

Plug on one end, receptacle on the other.
Instant 250' metal clad extension cord.

It isn't code, but nothing about this is

 

[Innovate1]

Get a roll of 12/2 stranded MC. $289 at Lowes for 250'.

• Applicable in exposed, concealed, wet, and other hazardous environments

Plug on one end, receptacle on the other.
Instant 250' metal clad extension cord.

I doubt the aluminum will last for years in an outdoor environment...