Longest 1/2" Breaker Bar?

[GirlnAgarage]

The point of the breaker bar v. ratchet to loosen really tight hardware is that you don't tear up a ratchet. It is the teeth of the pawl and gear that are taking the stress. But a breaker bar uses the solid lump of steel. I can remove lug nuts with a 1/2" ratchet. Thank heaven for great grip and strong legs.

My 1/2" breaker is 24".

 

[shampoop]

I am curious why people like breaker bars compared to ratchets? All my breaker bars collect dust save for my 3/8" one that I use to remove injection lines.

For me, I'll use a breaker bar over a ratchet when I'm dealing with clearance issues (head on a breaker bar is smaller). And when I want some extra length. My main 1/2" SO ratchet is 16.5" long, sure I'd like to have one that's 24" long too, but having a breaker bar of that size is much cheaper. Also, with some attachments, the ratcheting action is undesirable, if you could lock the ratchet so the head would not rotate that would be great, but I've never seen one with that feature. I personally have a rigid pipe wrench that has no handle, and instead just a 1/2" drive hole that I can just stick a breaker bar onto, I love it.

Us dragracers often cut a 1/2 ratchet in half and add 3 foot of chromemoly tube in the middle so we can turn a motor over to set the valves on a supercharged motor. This would work perfectly well with a breakover and cost would be marginal.

Sounds like an awesome trick.

 

[shampoop]

Are you trying to say that a given impact gun will develop more torque with a 3" extension than it will with a 10" one?

on how much power actually reaches the socket

Reading comprehension. I never said the gun would develop more torque.

The point of the breaker bar v. ratchet to loosen really tight hardware is that you don't tear up a ratchet. It is the teeth of the pawl and gear that are taking the stress. But a breaker bar uses the solid lump of steel. .

I remember multiple reports on here that the newer breaker bar length ratchets are actually stronger than their breaker bar counterparts. That the now very very strong gears are less likely to break than the breaker bar head.

 

[GirlnAgarage]

I remember multiple reports on here that the newer breaker bar length ratchets are actually stronger than their breaker bar counterparts. That the now very very strong gears are less likely to break than the breaker bar head.

Ok. I hadn't read that. Do you remember the threads?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

So according to your theory, using long extensions with an impact gun will have no affect whatsoever on how much power actually reaches the socket correct? After all, they are just "springs".

Difference between a steady pull and "hammering" of an impact.

A breaker bar that bends is much like a bending beam torque wrench. The more torque you pull, the more it bends, till you reach the limits of the tool.

By the same token, a long springy extension is just the same as a torque sticks. I you attach a breaker bar to that extension or torque stick, and pull, it will bend, and will also be transmitting torque to the socket. Attach a impact to the springy extension or torque stick, and it bends but since the impact is not a steady pull, the torque stick springs when hit, and springs back when the hammers relax in the impact.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I have a 24" SO 1/2 drive breaker bar I bought last fall for $25 at the flea market. It has proven to be very useful at work. (there are very big, very tight things on an airliner).

Charles

 

[dsch]

have you ever looked at the internal construction of your ratchet? do you want to put all that torque on those little teeth or use a tool that can take the force?

Yes I do and do so on a regular basis. Seems a waste to use a breaker bar to crack them loose and then switch to a ratchet. Maybe I'm alone on that one though.

 

[lennoxlennox]

Yes I do and do so on a regular basis. Seems a waste to use a breaker bar to crack them loose and then switch to a ratchet. Maybe I'm alone on that one though.

i'm with you on the switching back and forth... it's for those times... you know... that you know that **** ain't going to budge... and you just know this is not good on my expensive ratchet

 

[Alchymist]

Reading comprehension. I never said the gun would develop more torque.

Yep, reading comprehension - the gun has the same torque output regardless of what's hooked to it. So let me rephrase - will the gun DELIVER more torque to the fastener with a 3" extension than with a 10"?

I have a 24" SO 1/2 drive breaker bar I bought last fall for $25 at the flea market. It has proven to be very useful at work. (there are very big, very tight things on an airliner).

Charles

Reminds me of the main engine bolt on the B52 - it and two 1/4" bolts held the whole thing on.

 

[kartracer55]

So according to your theory, using long extensions with an impact gun will have no affect whatsoever on how much power actually reaches the socket correct? After all, they are just "springs".

Nope, the theory doesn't hold any more. We are now talking about something completely different.

If you were using a breaker bar, then no, the length of the extension would have no effect because it is a constant torque. Impact guns work off of impulse. .. IE "Impacts", where energy of the impulse is absorbed by the "spring".

 

[shampoop]

Ok. I hadn't read that. Do you remember the threads?

nope. I believe they were specifically talking about the new snap on ratchets though, or maybe some other truck brand.

the gun DELIVER more torque to the fastener with a 3" extension than with a 10"?

The gun doesn't deliver the power, the extension and socket do. And yes, exactly, more torque will be applied with the 3" extension than the 10" one.

Nope, the theory doesn't hold any more. We are now talking about something completely different.

If you were using a breaker bar, then no, the length of the extension would have no effect because it is a constant torque. Impact guns work off of impulse. .. IE "Impacts", where energy of the impulse is absorbed by the "spring".

I beg to differ. Lets say you're removing something like a stuck crank bolt, what's going to break it loose? The spike in pressure it sees when you jerk your whole body back and for a split second apply way more force than you ever could for a sustained amount of time. The spring affect of a long floppy breaker bar will dampen that huge spike of force and the bolt won't break loose. Think about it, impact driver vs drill. The peak amount of force is all that matters.

There's a reason why there are no springs on slide hammers.

 

[Alchymist]

Yep, reading comprehension - the gun has the same torque output regardless of what's hooked to it. So let me rephrase - will the gun DELIVER more torque to the fastener with a 3" extension than with a 10"?

The gun doesn't deliver the power, the extension and socket do. And yes, exactly, more torque will be applied with the 3" extension than the 10" one.

Either you are playing with semantics or I don't need the gun, just the extension and socket?

 

[trboxman]

The long extension acts just like a torsion bar in suspension...it stores energy that's put into it. Think of an impact gun on a long extension like a bumpy road on a torsion bar suspension, it takes in energy as it absorbs a bump and releases that energy as it rebounds...whereas putting a breaker bar on it and applying constant pressure doesn't have a bump and rebound cycle like an impact gun does.

 

[thedeatons]

I love this forum... I just read through 3 pages of discussion and you guys are still being civil!

That is why I still read threads here daily....


James

 

[kartracer55]

I beg to differ. Lets say you're removing something like a stuck crank bolt, what's going to break it loose? The spike in pressure it sees when you jerk your whole body back and for a split second apply way more force than you ever could for a sustained amount of time. The spring affect of a long floppy breaker bar will dampen that huge spike of force and the bolt won't break loose. Think about it, impact driver vs drill. The peak amount of force is all that matters.

There's a reason why there are no springs on slide hammers.

Think of this... If I was wrong, there would be no such thing as a beam style torque wrench, because according to your theory, when the torque wrench was in bending, it would stop applying torque even if I pulled harder. We both have seen that this isn't the case though. Think about what is happening. You apply more force, the bar bends more, and more torque is STILL applied. The only difference between a breaker bar and a beam style torque wrench is a fixed, calibrated scale to measure the deflection with on one of them.

If you want me to explain the energy theories behind the impact wrench we can talk about it, but you definitely need to convince yourself of what I am saying here. Just think about the beam style torque wrench. In fact, any torque wrench will prove your theory incorrect. The beam example is the easiest style, but inside every torque wrench is a calibrated spring. Yes, it absorbs energy, but at the end of the day a moment needs to be reacted out.

YOU HAVE TO TRUST ME HERE!!!

 

[trboxman]

Perfect!!

 

[kartracer55]

The long extension acts just like a torsion bar in suspension...it stores energy that's put into it. Think of an impact gun on a long extension like a bumpy road on a torsion bar suspension, it takes in energy as it absorbs a bump and releases that energy as it rebounds...whereas putting a breaker bar on it and applying constant pressure doesn't have a bump and rebound cycle like an impact gun does.

Yes, but no at the same time. Keep in mind here, that the torsion bar is storing energy, but there is an equal yet opposite moment reaction at the mount. The difference here is that the suspension is applying a varying moment load on the torsion bar spring, but the impact is simply delivering fixed quantities of energy with each blow. Theoretically, the only known quantity of torque an impact wrench can actually deliver at any given instant is the torque generated by the motor itself. If it were able to apply a constant moment, you would have an air ratchet.

Think of moments and reactions. You can tighten a nut to 50 lb-ft with your air ratchet, but when it grabs it is going to yank your hand pretty hard. You can tighten a bolt to 1-2, maybe 300 lb-ft with an impact wrench, but you can do so one handed. It is because the only moment you are actually reacting out with an impact wrench is that of the acceleration of the air motor (and other components), compared to an air ratchet where you are reacting out exactly as much torque as you are putting in.

 

[trboxman]

Yeah, I got it, poor analogy. Didn't mean to imply that the extension stored the energy that the impact imparts, in fact I thought I made it clear that the impact gun was a "bump and rebound" rather than a constant load like a breaker bar.

 

[shampoop]

Think of this... If I was wrong, there would be no such thing as a beam style torque wrench, because according to your theory, when the torque wrench was in bending, it would stop applying torque even if I pulled harder. We both have seen that this isn't the case though. Think about what is happening. You apply more force, the bar bends more, and more torque is STILL applied. The only difference between a breaker bar and a beam style torque wrench is a fixed, calibrated scale to measure the deflection with on one of them.

If you want me to explain the energy theories behind the impact wrench we can talk about it, but you definitely need to convince yourself of what I am saying here. Just think about the beam style torque wrench. In fact, any torque wrench will prove your theory incorrect. The beam example is the easiest style, but inside every torque wrench is a calibrated spring. Yes, it absorbs energy, but at the end of the day a moment needs to be reacted out.

YOU HAVE TO TRUST ME HERE!!!

I still disagree. Think about it this way, if you're going to yank on a breaker bar as hard as you possibly can, there is going to be a very brief period where the amout of torque is much higher than you could apply in a slow constant fashion. A large spike if you will. Putting a spring into the scenario (too thin of a breaker bar that flexes a lot) would completely average out the amount of torque seen by the fastener. So these are false imaginary values but go with me here, but instead of the fastener seeing 3,4,5,10,5,4,3 when you yank on it as hard as you can, it sees 3,5,7,5,3. The 10 is what breaks the bolt loose.

beam style torque wrenches are always plenty thick enough to where they don't bend much, certainly not enough to ever become an issue. However for the kind of demands the average 1/2" breaker bar sees, they bend a ton, enough to where it's a problem. Also, you don't yank on a beam style torque wrench, you do a slow constant controlled pull. That's far from the kind of behavior that produces the most power when trying to break a fastener free.

 

[reptilezs]

Think of this... If I was wrong, there would be no such thing as a beam style torque wrench, because according to your theory, when the torque wrench was in bending, it would stop applying torque even if I pulled harder. We both have seen that this isn't the case though. Think about what is happening. You apply more force, the bar bends more, and more torque is STILL applied. The only difference between a breaker bar and a beam style torque wrench is a fixed, calibrated scale to measure the deflection with on one of them.

If you want me to explain the energy theories behind the impact wrench we can talk about it, but you definitely need to convince yourself of what I am saying here. Just think about the beam style torque wrench. In fact, any torque wrench will prove your theory incorrect. The beam example is the easiest style, but inside every torque wrench is a calibrated spring. Yes, it absorbs energy, but at the end of the day a moment needs to be reacted out.

YOU HAVE TO TRUST ME HERE!!!

bending beam torque wrench theory only applies when you are moving the wrench slow and controlled. when you are jerking the thing a flexy bar dampens the energy spike. i promise real world here not science class

 

[kartracer55]

I still disagree. Think about it this way, if you're going to yank on a breaker bar as hard as you possibly can, there is going to be a very brief period where the amout of torque is much higher than you could apply in a slow constant fashion. A large spike if you will. Putting a spring into the scenario (too thin of a breaker bar that flexes a lot) would completely average out the amount of torque seen by the fastener. So these are false imaginary values but go with me here, but instead of the fastener seeing 3,4,5,10,5,4,3 when you yank on it as hard as you can, it sees 3,5,7,5,3. The 10 is what breaks the bolt loose.

beam style torque wrenches are always plenty thick enough to where they don't bend much, certainly not enough to ever become an issue. However for the kind of demands the average 1/2" breaker bar sees, they bend a ton, enough to where it's a problem. Also, you don't yank on a beam style torque wrench, you do a slow constant controlled pull. That's far from the kind of behavior that produces the most power when trying to break a fastener free.

I will address this in a second, but your original comment that spawned all this discussion was...

My 24" SO breaker bar is great, but when you start to really pull on it, the bar will just bend, which means that if it were longer, it would just bend more and not actually apply any more force.

Do you agree that this is not the case? Not talking about impulse, or hammering on the end or anything like that. The beam torque wrench example CLEARLY proves this theory incorrect. Do we not agree on this?

 

[kartracer55]

bending beam torque wrench theory only applies when you are moving the wrench slow and controlled. when you are jerking the thing a flexy bar dampens the energy spike. i promise real world here not science class

I'm not going to argue that you shouldn't pull on a torque wrench slow and controlled, but I am very curious as to what you believe the reasoning behind it is, since you seem very convinced I am wrong.

 

[onebad90lx]

instead of the long breaker bar, I have been using a big heavy 3/4 inch drive ratchet with a 1/2 adapter , seems to me it works a little better for breaking stuff loose, just dont use cheap sockets or its gonna break them real easy