Look out Facom, here comes ICON!

[silkman]

Following the Knipex - icon thread that got a million replies, here's another one by Harbor Freight.

Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!

Pulled up the "new tools" tab on the HF website, and there it is: "10 in. Pliers Wrench with Comfort Grip." They even have the "compare to Knipex at $66.77" already on the page... :LOL:

www.garagejournal.com

Many don't know Facom but it used to be one of Europe's top toolmakers, a French company, until it was bought by SBD circa 1996. They still make good tools with lifetime warranty (you don't get that in Europe) although most are made in Taiwan these days.

Came across this HF video

And here's the original Facom product. These guys at HF have copied it to a T.

Home - General tooling - Ratchets - Sockets - Accessories"Radio" 1/4" RangeSocket Sets 1/4"Socket Sets 1/4" PICO - - FACOM

www.facom.eu

About 70eur here.

These guys at HF are probably lawyered up well because I don't think StanleyBlackandDecker is gonna take that too kindly.

Popcorn in hand.

 

[Buckgnarly]

Harbor Freight has no shame.

 

[Mr_B]

The guys at HF have copied nothing and won't need lawyers .
They merely gone to same ODM (high-five) and the same manufacturing chain and got it produced with ICON branding .

Is a few other rebrands based on that set .

HF marketing techniques however are a right facom low blow .

 

[dstblj52]

Following the Knipex - icon thread that got a million replies, here's another one by Harbor Freight.

Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!

Pulled up the "new tools" tab on the HF website, and there it is: "10 in. Pliers Wrench with Comfort Grip." They even have the "compare to Knipex at $66.77" already on the page... :LOL:

www.garagejournal.com

Many don't know Facom but it used to be one of Europe's top toolmakers, a French company, until it was bought by SBD circa 1996. They still make good tools with lifetime warranty (you don't get that in Europe) although most are made in Taiwan these days.

Came across this HF video

And here's the original Facom product. These guys at HF have copied it to a T.

Home - General tooling - Ratchets - Sockets - Accessories"Radio" 1/4" RangeSocket Sets 1/4"Socket Sets 1/4" PICO - - FACOM

www.facom.eu

About 70eur here.

These guys at HF are probably lawyered up well because I don't think StanleyBlackandDecker is gonna take that too kindly.

Popcorn in hand.

I mean unless their is a patent or agreement going to the same oem and saying that one branded x is totally legal

 

[qqzj]

Good job Harbor Freight. Selling a tiny ratchet for 70 Euro is a sin.

 

[Mr_B]

Good job Harbor Freight. Selling a tiny ratchet for 70 Euro is a sin.

How much HF doing it for ?
EDIT: just looked and 40 bucks but they got no stock until late december

Pretty sure MAC done this set .
Real sin would be snap-on price lol .

 

[Mr_B]

I mean unless their is a patent or agreement going to the same oem and saying that one branded x is totally legal

any patents held by odm high-five or partnering manufacturing chain

 

[jonshonda]

There are going to be a very select few who realize what HF are doing, knocking off brands like Facom. Those select few are going to be comprised of 95% GJ members.

 

[Mr_B]

There are going to be a very select few who realize what HF are doing, knocking off brands like Facom. Those select few are going to be comprised of 95% GJ members.

Anyone who looks at the HF website will know .
It not really a knock off as HF doing same as Facom in aspect of getting a contract on the tool item from the ODM/manufacturing chain with the required branding .

Toptul has the set and that could be had cheap year or 2 ago .
also few other brands have it and the ratchet individually which has some patents under high-five group .

set can be found under USAG & ratchets can be found under brands like ks-tool and I think I seen a tone one too .

 

[dstblj52]

any patents held by odm high-five or partnering manufacturing chain

In this case sure but brands will often bring ip and patented tech with them to the partnership

 

[dstblj52]

There are going to be a very select few who realize what HF are doing, knocking off brands like Facom. Those select few are going to be comprised of 95% GJ members.

This isn't a knockoff this is mutual sourcing as facom didn't pay for an exclusive

 

[dnschmidt]

TOPTUL and Harbor Freight stole nothing. TOPTUL makes the god-damn stuff for FACOM to begin with. How can you steal that which you manufacture yourself. This is what happens when you let your manufacturing go outside. He who makes the tool calls the shots.

 

[M635_Guy]

It not really a knock off as HF doing same as Facom in aspect of getting a contract on the tool item from the ODM/manufacturing chain with the required branding .

Please don't try to dispel the GarageJournal HF hysteria with facts and logic.

 

[silkman]

So high-five makes the tool. I guess they probably split geographical locations then, Facom sells it in Europe, Harbor Freight and maybe others in USA.

High Five also make a sizeable chunk of most ratcheting wrenches. Even Hazet and Stahlwille buy off them. Only Gedore make their own.

HI-FIVE PRODUCTS DEVELOPING CO., LTD

Through constant innovation, Hi-Five has seized the industry's leading role in the design and manufacture to geared products. Adherence to the strictest quality standards, combined with state-of-the-art manufacturing processes, makes Hi-Five an especially reliable partner in the tool business...

www.newtools.com

 

[rancherbill]

Oh come on, copying is why there is a tool industry.

I believe Snapon invented tools that snap on in the 1920s and everybody COPIED them. It is because of the multiple sourcing that prices are low enough for me to get great tools. It is incumbent of the premium tool companies to be the epitome of quality and finish.

I come from the electronic industry and Intel used to invent stuff and they immediately gave all right patents etc. to the IEEE so that everybody could use the tech. All networking stuff is freely available.

 

[Fedwrench]

Some of you guys have gone off the deep end in crazy town I must have missed the memo about there can only be one.
I picked up that ICON bit ratchet set the other day. I like it. Especially at half the price of what the similar USAG/FACOM kit costs. The ICON bit ratchet is about a 1/4 of an inch shorter than my USAG version and it doesn't have as many rings on the handle but, it's fine for my needs. Here are some crappy pictures of the ICON set, the USAG set, and the set that i hope ICON releases next, the short hex based sockets.
I truly don't understand all of the hate directed at Harbor Freight. No one is being forced to buy their stuff. If you don't like their offerings, shop elsewhere.

 

[Mr_B]

TOPTUL and Harbor Freight stole nothing. TOPTUL makes the god-damn stuff for FACOM to begin with. How can you steal that which you manufacture yourself. This is what happens when you let your manufacturing go outside. He who makes the tool calls the shots.

toptul don't make it, Rotar may do the finishing as they appear do the facom tone and stahlwille finishing and mastered soft satin chrome .
High-five manufacturing partners do the ratchet .
Pretty much none of the manufacturers in taiwan do complete start to finish manufacture, different stages from design, foundry, machining, finishing gets out-sourced to various manufacturing partners .

 

[Mr_B]

So high-five makes the tool. I guess they probably split geographical locations then, Facom sells it in Europe, Harbor Freight and maybe others in USA.

High Five also make a sizeable chunk of most ratcheting wrenches. Even Hazet and Stahlwille buy off them. Only Gedore make their own.

HI-FIVE PRODUCTS DEVELOPING CO., LTD

Through constant innovation, Hi-Five has seized the industry's leading role in the design and manufacture to geared products. Adherence to the strictest quality standards, combined with state-of-the-art manufacturing processes, makes Hi-Five an especially reliable partner in the tool business...

www.newtools.com

more a case of high-five have patents on certain areas of the ratchet design .

 

[Professional Tool User]

HF is merely rebranding stuff from the same supplier in Taiwan just like Facom. It's the supplier in Taiwan that holds the patent anyways and they get to choose who gets to rebrand their products.

 

[four.cycle]

"I believe Snapon invented tools that snap on in the 1920s..."

Actually, credit for that should be given to one Reginald F. Sedgley for his patent (1289558), which was the first use of a "detent ball" to retain a socket.

 

[qqzj]

OP's 2nd knock on HF apparently did not go as well as the 1st one

There is a reason that patent etc has a lifetime and insisting on things been only produced by higher priced companies are actually anti-human. Just think of drugs. Companies obtain patents and legal protection as a reward for their investment. But extending the patent too long will deny some human being from getting the treatment. Does it sound very appealing to OP?

In fact, India doesn't recognize any patent on ingredients of drugs. They only respect the process of making drugs. So as long as any India company can figure out alternative ways to make drugs, it is perfectly legal there. Why? Because millions of poor souls in India cannot afford the drugs with patents. Are you going to just let them die?

In the case of Harbor Freight, it does an excellent job of motivating companies like Knipex or whatever to innovate. Otherwise, just get out of the way.

 

[fang123]

Just think, the guy who invented the ratchet must be turning over in his grave. No one should have been allowed to copy his brainchild.

 

[KnurledNut]

I'll stick with my VIM RFB400K.
For my uses, the longer handle has all these others beat.
I have no use for that case, but then again, my work setting is probably quite different that a lot of you.
My curiosity goes toward how well those bits hold up.

 

[Mr_B]

My curiosity goes toward how well those bits hold up.

that indeed an important factor.
good thing with ICON is likely get a few replaced if mess them up but hopefully they good enough have sensible working life without warranty .
Taiwan seem got pretty good at durable bits, I had good results with several brands all taiwan coo .

 

[Bubba Fett]

The biggest issue for me is the "Designed by Icon Tools" which is an outright LIE.

 

[rick carpenter]

The biggest issue for me is the "Designed by Icon Tools" which is an outright LIE.

Maybe, per Mr. B above, the final product finish/appearance is by Icon? Could be like a master chef gets the credit for a great dish, but the food comes from the farm...

 

[Mr_B]

The biggest issue for me is the "Designed by Icon Tools" which is an outright LIE.

Yes they do stretch the truth, wouldn't be so bad if they did input more design changes on lot of the products or even improved size coverage of a set to be more pro/US market complete but it seems they got no one onboard with a clue or real world experience on professional brand tool needs or common gumption to see some easy retail improvements for trade & prosumers .
What they do have in a full house is some pretty extremist marketing professionals lol .

 

[ste6168]

Too bad I just picked up the Wiha kit from Lowes not long ago, otherwise I would be getting this. MUCH better kit, might get it anyways if I happen to run across it in my store.

 

[M635_Guy]

The biggest issue for me is the "Designed by Icon Tools" which is an outright LIE.

I'm sorry, but

I mean, it's silly, and lame marketing, but your threshold is a low...

 

[Mb4]

I'm sorry, but

I mean, it's silly, and lame marketing, but your threshold is a low...

Like everything at Harbor Freight...

 

[M635_Guy]

Like everything at Harbor Freight...

 

[sk farmer]

this is one of the stupidest topics i have seen in a while . i doubt that there isn't a brand out there that has not sourced some reveresegear/high five tools of some sort.

 

[m6z]

Lol, this bit ratchet set is already sold under several brands. Facom, USAG, Tone, Mac, Toptul and Presentable to name a few.

 

[kreisler]

Toptul has the set and that could be had cheap year or 2 ago .
also few other brands have it and the ratchet individually which has some patents under high-five group .

set can be found under USAG & ratchets can be found under brands like ks-tool and I think I seen a tone one too .

That toptul set costs 26€ mas shipping in gemani and rivals the one KS tool set which goes for 26€ (albeit in france) too. The toptul plastic box might be even superior re durability and has a few more bits.
In the end i decided in favor of the KS Tools set because the geman company offers free lifetime warranty and i prefer the red colour haha. The included TORSIONpower™ bits seem somewhat special too with the color coding.

And, afaik the toptul plastic box is slightly bigger (the bigger the less likable).
my measurements: ks tools 130x59 (62)x36.5mm, 341g.
www data: toptul 124 x 70.5 x 35mm, 395g.

 

[CGarage]

The Tone bit set I have I think comes from the same factory in Taiwan as Facom/USAG. The ratchets look nearly identical.

I think it is good for Harbor Freight to offer this set. It will improve lives in the US of technicians.

It is a tragedy that Facom/USAG / Stanley do such a limited job with US access to their products.

Save for Ultimate Garage and on occasion, Amazon, these brands are hard to find.

 

[Shoreline_]

I think Facom started off copying either the Stillson or the Ford wrench for the French market.

 

[CGarage]

I think Facom started off copying either the Stillson or the Ford wrench for the French market.

Do you know what “Facom” stands for?
Franco-Américaine de Construction d'Outillage Mécanique (Franco-American Mechanics' Tool Production).
They worked together with Americans to produce the tools.

 

[Etchase]

I didn’t realize HF gives a lifetime warranty on the bits! Does anyone else do this? I buy them in 10 packs for a reason.

 

[kngelv]

This is a bit different than the Knipex copying. This is not a Facom produced tool. If they want to put their name on a product someone else makes then they have no reason to complain unless there is some exclusive licensing agreement. Knipex does make their own tools and the Icon stuff is basically a carbon copy of the first gen. If HF could have whoever is making it tweak the design a little and change the color then it would be less annoying.

James

 

[lardy1]

VIM is offering just the ratchet, extension and SD adapter for those of us not interested in the bits or the case. It looks identical to me.