Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!
- Thread starter javyLSU
- Start date
DerekV
Well-known member
I don’t follow HF issues, just mentioned those two as they were the first to come to mind. I know they ended up pulling the first version of their Vulcan 200 amp AC/DC TIG welder off the shelves due to their legal battle with Lincoln. I think that’s the worst that’s ever happened to them with this kind of stuff, which all things considered is barely a slap on the wrist. Oh, and the Icon ratchet comfort grips abruptly changing from SO-style black/red to maroon/black not long after launch. Not sure if that was for legal reasons but assuming it was, just another slap on the wrist.
Fellas, they know what they’re doing. You don’t have to like it, and at this point you should expect it.
See what they come out with next, observe the lengths they go to with their cloning details, and have a good laugh talking about it on GJ
What if they were USA Made Craftsman?
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Assembled in US from Global Materials…
This reminds me when the Fein Multitool patent expired, iirc mid 2000s?
Guess how many multitools where out in the wild when it was either a $300+ Fein or nothing,
only my Festool buddies had them
Now you can buy a (albeit crappier) multitool for $10
Guess how many multitools where out in the wild when it was either a $300+ Fein or nothing,
only my Festool buddies had them
Now you can buy a (albeit crappier) multitool for $10
dnschmidt
Well-known member
You have Festool buddies? Well OK try to top this: I've got Felder buddies. If you really want to meet woodworking snobs you can't top the Felder owners group.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Price of multitool blades dropped about 75% overnight.
Ton ton
Well-known member
Well said, sir.I don’t follow HF issues, just mentioned those two as they were the first to come to mind. I know they ended up pulling the first version of their Vulcan 200 amp AC/DC TIG welder off the shelves due to their legal battle with Lincoln. I think that’s the worst that’s ever happened to them with this kind of stuff, which all things considered is barely a slap on the wrist. Oh, and the Icon ratchet comfort grips abruptly changing from SO-style black/red to maroon/black not long after launch. Not sure if that was for legal reasons but assuming it was, just another slap on the wrist.
Fellas, they know what they’re doing. You don’t have to like it, and at this point you should expect it.
See what they come out with next, observe the lengths they go to with their cloning details, and have a good laugh talking about it on GJ
ste6168
Well-known member
Admittedly I didn’t read every post here, but just also saw these online. Figured it would be of some interest, guy who posted said it wasn’t even in the system yet, so not sure of price.
guess they found a supplier who from what we have seen does a good job cloning knipex productsAdmittedly I didn’t read every post here, but just also saw these online. Figured it would be of some interest, guy who posted said it wasn’t even in the system yet, so not sure of price.
"These professional pliers have parallel jaws for a secure, non-marring grip on fasteners".
ste6168
Well-known member
Yep, Knipex Raptors, or I mean Icon Parrot Nose… Odd thought that these ones look more like the Doyle cobras, with the larger push button and V markings on the handle.
i could easily switch to Doyle pliers, I think they’re good tools. Heck, I’ve been impressed with the quinn pliers I’ve used, just a small lineup. Personally with the pliers wrench would have been part of the quinn line, and other sizes available. i have no use for the 250mm size, 180 is best!
They're so damn similar to the older series knipex that I wonder if they straight up bought the old assembly line? You would think a taiwanese copy would be about 1/5 the price, not 4/5...
The real test will be the quality of the steel and the finish coating. These are smooth jaws so they won't wear as much as the cobra-style pliers, but if they start rusting right away then we'll know they are junk
The real test will be the quality of the steel and the finish coating. These are smooth jaws so they won't wear as much as the cobra-style pliers, but if they start rusting right away then we'll know they are junk
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sparky 1971
Well-known member
The pliers wrench doesn't work like Channellock (tongue and groove pliers) but, they are made.
ste6168
Well-known member
The pliers wrench doesn't work like Channellock (tongue and groove pliers) but, they are made.
There is a such thing as smooth jaw Channelock, too. But yeah, pliers wrench are certainly in their own class of tool.
Channellock 415 10-Inch Smooth Jaw Tongue https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000189GQU/?tag=atomicindus08-20
It's definitely not the same casting/whatever. I did a comparison yesterday that shows pretty definitively that there are lots of little differences in casting and design. The (matte) chrome finish looks fine - it's not pretty, but neither are my Knipex equivalents. I haven't had anything Icon rust (and very few tools overall), so I don't think it's a concern. I leaned on them a bit in my garage, and they felt entirely sturdy - no difference I could feel/discern vs. my Knipex 250 pair in operation.
kngelv
Well-known member
Unfortunately patent law is almost irrelevant. Companies find ways around them all the time. HF is the largest tool store in the country and they make plenty of money. IMHO they should use some of this to innovate and give us something better instead of using it for marketing workarounds and copies of other tool companies designs. I'm not saying I will never shop there but I certainly won't be buying these.
James
James
lol - patent law isn't irrelevant. The guy from SawStop is a great example of how a little guy took on the industry, defended his IP and made a ton of money. He didn't make many friends in the process, at least in the industry, but if you have legitimately unique patents and they're properly filed, there aren't really "ways around them"
no its very relevant and harbor freight is serving as a price reduction function which is a legitimate and good market function their innovating by selling things at lower price points and those opening them all up to more users
i mean its not 4/5s the price its closer to half the price
ace10
Well-known member
Would you be okay if your car was repaired with knock off, non OEM airbags? They're very similar but sold at a much lower price.
no because airbags are an item with a much higher cost if they go wrong I die then a plier wrench where if it doesn't work I'm out 40 bucks and maybe bust my knuckles which ***** but is a gamble i maybe willing to take for 30 bucks
jsmeece
Well-known member
Are Recycled OEM Non-Deployed Airbags Safe? | Edmunds
Auto recyclers salvage never-deployed OEM airbags from scrapped cars and sell them as replacement airbags. It's legal, but critics say it's dangerous.
www.edmunds.com
There are no legitimate "aftermarket" airbags from third-party suppliers, experts say.
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That's a silly comparison for a variety of reasons. If you're trying to make a legitimate point, you're going to have to come up with a legitimate example.
Or, you could just (try to) argue the point at hand without the falsely-stretched examples. At the end of the day, most people have no idea they are surrounded by a variety of quality products as result of the expiration of patents and the entry of competitors - some compete on low cost, some will compete on quality, or availability, or whatever. Chances are essentially 100% that you personally have multiple examples of that phenomenon - probably even in your car.
In this case, on this particular tool, it's a false argument. Beyond the fact none of us has failure rate/warranty data in-hand, I'm going out on a limb to say you haven't even touched the Icon version of this tool in your hand. I have, and it's not a cheaply-made tool. It definitely shows signs of reducing the number of finishing steps to save costs and steps, but nothing that affects overall function/usability and I doubt anything that makes it likely to fail at a higher rate than the Knipex or any other quality tool. I don't put a lot of stock in "lifetime" warranties as a whole, but most warrantable failures occur in the first few years of life of most products, and they have every financial incentive to keep the replacement rate very low.
ace10
Well-known member
The poster to whom I replied was using "price" delta as the criteria for justifying a knock off. Go back and read the comment.
Because of that, I can apply that same logic to whatever example I choose.
If we're talking about price, then price is the measuring stick.
Introducing "safety" or whatever is simply moving the goal posts. Which is a weak way of arguing something.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
The patents ran out years ago. Harbor Freight's business model is selling similar tools at lower prices. Competition serves consumers and they is no moral issue here.
Well, the tool itself is clearly not a price play. You're also implying something beyond price (which I agree is a weak way of arguing something
) The current price leader appears to be NAPA, where Geodore appears to be priced higher than Knipex If Icon were charging the same or higher than Knipex, THAT would piss me off - lol.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Can’t you just feel the love for Harbor Freight in this thread?
Bubba Fett
Well-known member
Strait up copying someone else's design is not innovative in any way. For consumers looking to save a few bucks, that's not necessarily bad, but it is clearly not innovative. It is the opposite of innovation.
The other issue is that these are so close in price to the name brand, that the savings don't matter that much. May as well get the real ones from a known and trusted brand. We KNOW the Knipex tools are good. They did the research, designing and testing, and are using the best materials and machining they can. HF simply hired a contract manufacturer to make a knockoff, which is what they are best at.
I don't think they promised to be innovative 
Their thing is value-for-price. And the "straight-up copying" thing is, again, the intended outcome of the how the system is designed to work. It's OK if that makes you hurty.I agree that having access to the patent doesn't by itself mean you can automatically get the fully-same result as the person/company that originally wrote it, but that means the existing design is the best starting point. In this case, I think there's also a risk/reward thing at play too - messing with the formula can make things worse. HF will make it easier to get for a lot of people - the general public has no idea about Knipex or what a pliers wrench is. I doubt Knipex is losing any business worth talking about here (i.e. virtually 100% of the buyers at HF would never have wound up with a Knipex pair) so I'm still not sure what people are so twisted about.
As much as I love my Knipex stuff, I think you calling it the "best machining they can" is a little funny - while the Icon pair has skipped some cosmetic finishing steps to save steps/costs, Knipex wasn't going for full/fine finishing on the pliers wrenches. They're doing more than Icon, but they're not exactly precisely or finely finished in a lot of spots. And intentional or not, the more-rounded teeth of the Icon makes the adjustment smoother than my Knipex pair (my 7" is smoother than the 10", presumably because it's been used more).
Meursault74
Well-known member
That was exactly my point as well. I highly doubt I'd ever buy the Knipex at the $60-70 range I see. I'm all for having tools "just in case", but this is a little too much for that. Plus if I ever was in the middle of something and needed it and didn't have, I'd likely have to order it. The HF I could go to the store and get it same day if needed (ideally). Or I could wait for a deal and get one for maybe less than $40 for "just in case". I know I'm not going to be using it a lot, which I why I don't have one. I'm sure this type of tool is great, but I have others that can get the job done. I mostly use adjustable wrenches for plumbing and they've worked fine for me so far. Yes they're a little finicky, but I've managed. If I get a "just in case" tool, I usually want to get a deal on it.
Was Ferrari concerned when Pontiac released the Fiero? I think not. Did the Fiero take away sales from Ferrari, I doubt it.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
They didn't care about the Fiero because it was just small a rear engine coupe. It had a slightly exotic sounding name, and a similar color to Ferrari Red. But that's about it. It didn't look like any existing Ferrari model, no perform like one. Ferrari DOES however aggressively protect their brand, image and trade dress. They are INFAMOUS for suing companies that blatantly knock off their products. Kit car builders, aftermarket product companies and more. One of their more famous lawsuits was against the company that built the prop cars for Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Sued them right out of business.
In this case, HF has taken the outgoing Kinpex pliers wrench and completely cloned it. M635_Guy incorrectly compared to HF tool to the latest generation 10" pliers wrench, when it should have been compared to the outgoing version. (See this video, where it becomes quite clear that HF just put the old outgoing Pliers Wrench in a photocopier
The thing is, I don't even mind if they just cloned the parallel jaw mechanism. It's a trick design, and there aren't really many ways to achieve the same functionality without adding tremendous complexity. All of the pliers-wrench competitors use the exact same mechanism when you look at it. However, every single other company took the time to make their own unique forgings, castings and overall aesthetic to differentiate their product.
HF blatantly copied the Knipex exactly, just to cause confusion. It's just going to eventually hurt the Knipex because it looks exactly like the real thing. It will be similar to the indirect damage HF has done to the "Chicago Pneumatic" brand. So many people I know associate "Chicago Pneumatic" with Harbor Freight, even though it is/was a premium manufacturer of air tools that has nothing to do with HF. Branding all their cheap nasty tools "Chicago Electric" and "Central Pneumatic" was no accident. They directly cashed in on the cachet of someone else's brand name. Now with this tool, they're directly cashing in on the physical appearance of another brand's tool.
Meursault74
Well-known member
So it's a copy of an old design of Knipex, not the one Knipex currently sells? Looks like it from that video. So even less of an issue for people to get upset about. I think the Icon opens up a little more than the older Knipex.
Point remains no one walking into a HF or ordering from HF is going to confuse this with a Knipex just as if they were ordering or buying an Icon ratchet, they're not going to think it's Snap On or take sales away from Snap on.
I completely agree they made it look just like the Knipex, but it doesn't make a difference to me in the long run. If they put green handles on it so that it wouldn't look like the Knipex would others here say that was enough and buy it?
It has been entertaining reading and being involved in this discussion, but really none of us here has a dog in this fight unless we're lawyers with HF of Knipex. Buy the Icon, or the Knipex or neither.
LoL - I stated specifically in my writeup that my 10" was the newer version, and the pix have the older-style 7" right next to it. It seems clear that Knipex updated their casting/etc. a bit over time.
You're conflating completely different things. And while I'm not exactly a fan of the other example you're citing in terms of how HF went about things, I disagree completely that there's going to be any measureable harm to Knipex. They're operating in completely different circles and you're going to have to be pretty thick to think you're buying a Knipex when the thing has a lot of Icon branding on the packaging and the tool itself.
It's clear you've got a grudge, and I've got no problem with that. I even agree with you that they should have taken some opportunities to be less "Knipex-y", but I'm working on the "what they did in this case" in terms of their adherence to the legal protections that cover Knipex and the tool itself. And both are fine.
kngelv
Well-known member
This thread is a microcosm of what’s wrong with this country. Harbor Freight is taking the lazy and easy path by copying someone else’s design. I don’t care about expired patents, lower prices or any of the other **** some of you are trying to sell. People always talk ad nauseum about American innovation and uniqueness etc. etc. and yet America’s largest tool store is basically a plagiarizer. Their only innovation is copying others at reduced prices.
James
James
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Hmm, so when Ford discontinues a certain body style of vehicle, does that mean GM should be able to build an exact copy of that outgoing Ford vehicle?
There's a ton of overlap between Knipex tool buyers and HF shoppers - this thread is a perfect example of that. There are also tons and tons of "casual tool buyers" who likely have seen people use the Knipex pliers wrench either in person or on YouTube without specifically asking or being told what is the exact brand/model of tool. They go into a HF, see a tool that looks exactly like the one they saw on YouTube, and go "huh, I saw that on YouTube, maybe I should get one" thinking it must be the same tool. When in reality, it's not. Sure the current Icon units are okay quality wise, but given HF's track record, there's no guarantee it will remain that way. If their knockoff Knipex tool breaks, they'll be likely to badmouth that particular tool whenever they see it, completely oblivious to the fact that they're two different tools.
Like I said, countless gearheads and "tool guys" I know are completely oblivious that Chicago Pneumatic is not a HF brand.
I don't have a grudge against HF - I have plenty of HF tools. But none of them are blatant identical copies of an existing product. At least they tried to dress the Daytona jack up a tiny bit compared to the Snap-On original. This new tool is just a completely egregious knock off.It's clear you've got a grudge, and I've got no problem with that. I even agree with you that they should have taken some opportunities to be less "Knipex-y", but I'm working on the "what they did in this case" in terms of their adherence to the legal protections that cover Knipex and the tool itself. And both are fine.
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Meursault74
Well-known member
Sure, let's hear it for the Chevy "Pint", a small ****** car the looks just like the Ford Pinto. I'm sure it'll sell great
Everyone enjoys the discount on generic drugs after a certain amount of time for the patent to expire. Maybe people can think of HF as generic drugs for tools. When allergy season kicks in I take "Benadry".............. wait you know what I've never actually taken "Benadry", but I've taken plenty of Diphenhydramine HCl. The generic pills even say compare to "Benadry". Similarly HF tools usually says compare to xyz.
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thank you and thats not a bad way to look at harbor freight the generic supplier that comes in later and actually a lot of their higher end stuff like that new us general cart and a lot of icon stuff is actually made after the exclusivity is over like, like the kabo ratcheting wrenchesSure, let's hear it for the Chevy "Pint", a small ****** car the looks just like the Ford Pinto. I'm sure it'll sell great
Everyone enjoys the discount on generic drugs after a certain amount of time for the patent to expire. Maybe people can think of HF as generic drugs for tools. When allergy season kicks in I take "Benadry".............. wait you know what I've never actually taken "Benadry", but I've taken plenty of Diphenhydramine HCl. The generic pills even say compare to "Benadry". Similarly HF tools usually says compare to xyz.
Bubba Fett
Well-known member
I look at HF as the lazy kid who copies everyone one else's homework, and never gives credit to the people who did the actual work. I guess it's nice to have the real companies do all the designs, testing and innovation, while they get to ride on their coattails.