javyLSU
Well-known member
Pulled up the "new tools" tab on the HF website, and there it is: "10 in. Pliers Wrench with Comfort Grip." They even have the "compare to Knipex at $66.77" already on the page... 
Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!
- Thread starter javyLSU
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four.cycle
Well-known member
how much?
jsmeece
Well-known member
$39.99
four.cycle
Well-known member
Okay. Local Harbor Freight confirmed they have them in stock.
I will go up and buy a pair on Thursday.
I will give them to my buddy, who is supposed to be here Friday to R&R the water pump on my Ranger.
(We also need to remove the bed and change out the fuel pump and try to determine where the water's leaking into the cab.)
I will instruct him to abuse them in any manner or fashion he can, including but not limited to the use of cheater pipes, pry bars, or hammers.
I will get back to you gentlemen and let you know what he thinks.
(FTR: aforementioned buddy is a guy who could break an anvil, so we'll see if they're really worth a **** or just more hot air.)
I will go up and buy a pair on Thursday.
I will give them to my buddy, who is supposed to be here Friday to R&R the water pump on my Ranger.
(We also need to remove the bed and change out the fuel pump and try to determine where the water's leaking into the cab.)
I will instruct him to abuse them in any manner or fashion he can, including but not limited to the use of cheater pipes, pry bars, or hammers.
I will get back to you gentlemen and let you know what he thinks.
(FTR: aforementioned buddy is a guy who could break an anvil, so we'll see if they're really worth a **** or just more hot air.)
928'er
Well-known member
Yeah, right...
To be fair you’ll need to also buy him Knipex pliers wrench and abuse it in the same way.
Based solely on the photos, that actually looks like a good copy. Lots of the knock-offs are too bulky (Irwin), use weird adjustment mechanisms (Wiha, Maximum), aren't any better or cheaper (Gedore, Gray), or have strange ergonomics (Craftsman).
Of course the design is for naught if it's made of junk materials, but the photos look nice.
Of course the design is for naught if it's made of junk materials, but the photos look nice.
four.cycle
Well-known member
JeepYJ said:
That's not going to happen.
I've never been drunk or stoned enough to pay $70 bucks for a pair of pliers.
<$60 at Menards right now, but it looks like you’re in the west not Midwest. Knipex pliers wrench are worth the $50-something.That's not going to happen.
I've never been drunk or stoned enough to pay $70 bucks for a pair of pliers.
snyder
Well-known member
Forgive my ignorance, but I have never seen smooth jaw channel locks before.
Are these a substitute for a crescent wrench. They just don't look like something I would use.
Are these a substitute for a crescent wrench. They just don't look like something I would use.
rancherbill
Well-known member
What about the sleek Canadian Tire Maximum? They seem to work very well
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/maximum-pliers-wrench-10-in-0581692p.html
It’s a Wiha!
Well, as far as I can tell anyway. If you compare photos of them you’ll see what I mean. Both made in Taiwan.
it’s not bad - just not “best”. I’m surprised that no on seems to have improved on Knipex’s yet.
I’ve used the Wiha. It’s a good tool. I’d consider the Maximum, on sale, as a second 10” pliers wrench. It’s a slightly different shape than the Knipex, but more importantly, there’s no button. You open the jaws to readjust - which is fine, just not my favourite.
Sorta - they've definitely banished all of my crescent/adjustables to the backup tools and have been untouched since then. I completely despise crescents, and absolutely love my Knipex pliers wrenches.
Beyond regular adjustable wrench tasks (e.g. installing a toilet, etc.), I've used them installing suspension stuff (narrow face is really handy), flattening out bent metal edges, in place of regular wrenches in a variety of stuff, etc. They're great. I'll probably pick up the HF version for the tool roll that lives in my old car.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
IMO, that copy is way too close to the Knipex original for them to get away with. The matte chrome, the little diamond shape windows in the dynamic jaws, the depressed area around the button, the laser etching, the kink in the handles. That straight up looks exactly the same as a Knipex Pliers Wrench.
I'm not a lawyer, but that seems like a pretty direct infringement on Knipex's style.
I'm not a lawyer, but that seems like a pretty direct infringement on Knipex's style.
Agree, but I'd bet the only thing patented is the actual mechanism. And I guess that patent expired. I don't think you would get a patent for diamond reliefs, matte chrome, or handle shape- these are nothing really unique that aids function. And to be clear, I'm no fan of HF 100% cloning stuff. I have the Knipex version; and would buy them again tomorrow vs the HF copy.
xlowxyotax88x
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2015
- Messages
- 210
Sorry to derail but what year ranger? Have fixed a few that leak from the back glass, it bolts in and is sealed out with butyl tape, pull it out clean all the old off reseal and bolt back in. Also check the seal around 3rd brake light.
I have been both.That's not going to happen.
I've never been drunk or stoned enough to pay $70 bucks for a pair of pliers.
BlakeTheCarGuy
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I wonder if these will have a similar grip as Knipex? As far as texture and comfort goes because personally I’m not a fan of their grip but it is not a deal breaker.
The biggest thing I see is the jaws don't have any cuts on them. The Knipex can be bought with plastic covers to keep from marring surfaces.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
The patent on the mechanism is probably expired by now, but Knipex would still have standing to defend the specific appearance of the tool.
There are lots of parallel jaw pliers that use a similar or same mechanism to Knipex. None of them look exactly the same. These are a blatant clone.
Just like how all the early patents on cars have expired, but GM can't just build a car that looks exactly like the Mustang and call it a Palomino.
Knipex Pliers Wrench have smooth jaws. They are more of an adjustable wrench than pliers.
I know, I'm referring to the cuts on the sides of the jaws for these plastic covers to snap over. Keeps them locked in place.
The smooth sides of the Icon wouldn't allow for such a thing.
Attachments
Meursault74
Well-known member
I'm not sure who made the first adjustable wrench but since most call it a "Crescent" wrench let's say they did it first. Don't they all pretty much look the same within reason? Is everyone copying Crescent, or do form and function go together?
four.cycle
Well-known member
Icon 58200 10-inch pliers wrench
$44 and change out the door with our $10.5% sales tax
I'll let you gentlemen know what he thinks.
He's the mechanic - that's his bailiwick.
As I recall, last time I peered into his tool bag, he had a pair of those ****** black Craftsman "Robo-Pliers" things.
Just a wild-*** guess, but I think these might be a game-changer for him.
Maybe they will sue. It worked out well for Snapon. Something I just don't get is where are all the buy USA only people on threads like this?
I'm not a fan of the Knipex but then I really don't care much for my Klein's. Usually I go to Channelock or some sort of Crescent style wrench. The old style monkey wrenches are among my favorites also and I'm younger than most on this board.
You're definitely not a lawyer.
I'm not either, but have been close enough to a variety of IP law scenarios to know what you're posting isn't even close to the law.
History is rife with car companies making similar cars to the other guy - look at the 60's and the rush to copy the Mustang . Same in the world of fine shoes and a wide variety of other products.
I'm not saying copyrights don't exist, but the kind of ID protection you're talking about is incredibly hard to achieve beyond something like a registered trademark. Maybe they had a utility/functional patent on the mechanism, but after 17 years (usually) you're generally done.
The IP/patent laws are written that way on purpose to ensure availability of technology, encourage innovation and avoid monopolies while offering a meaningful period of protection to inventors. Assuming they're not stupid enough to infringe on a patent (and I doubt there are many significant patents still in effect for hand tools), not only are they doing nothing wrong, they're doing the very thing that the patent laws are designed to enable.
So y'all can stop waving that kind of **** around. Said nicely, it shows your lack of understanding for the law.
gatewaysysop
Well-known member
To each his own, but for me, the price difference is not near enough to even consider buying a shameless and ugly knock off.
If you're referring to the jack lawsuit, it didn't work out well for SO at all. They settled undisclosed and the identical jack is still sold in the same way with the same comparison in the flyer (while in the process outing SO on it's questionable MiUSA claim as it's really closer to "Assembled in the USA from components made in China"). SO wouldn't settle if they thought they could win. I don't remember for sure, but if they were in a state that had SLAPP protection that would have offered HF the ability to request attorney's fees if they won, it was in Snap On's interests to settle before things got really pricey. The fact that HF changed nothing should tell you everything you need to know about the merits of SO's case, though they seem to have gotten some benefit that just from the fact they filed a suit people seem to think they won.
I am not a patent attorney, but I think it's only if those features were specifically patented. Appearance isn't patented unless it's something unique. years ago, I think Channellock had a patent on their light blue handle color for some reason. I understand why they would want it, but not why you would grant a patent on that.
It's like how HF made a 99.9% copy of the small Snap On cutters. Down to the red textured grips. Which I'm sure isn't patented as many mfgs use textured grips. Again, I'm not siding with HF, but patents cover only specific aspects of the design that are special.
Aftermarket companies copy an OE body part to sell as aftermarket. It's as close a copy as they can get it. It's a fender, headlamp, radiator.... so if there's not a special feature that the OE has a patent on, then you can copy it.
So, we shall see....
No, we won't. There's nothing to see.
A patent covers a novel invention. It's tough to get a patent because if there's "prior art" (something similar) in the past, even if it wasn't patented, you haven't created something unique enough to patent. (though there are derivative patents, but I can't say I'm able to explain those well, but that's not operative here)
Channellock can't patent a blue handle. They can argue it's part of their trade dress (and probably have), so it falls closer to the area of trademarks (which is IP law, but not a patent). Enough people have made red-handled tools that there's no way to argue it's unique to you, and I'd guess a different-enough shade of blue would give enough separation from Channellock to be 100% fine.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
I'm not arguing the patent of the mechanism. Knipex patented the parallel jaw mechanism over 25 years ago, and the patent is long expired for the mechanism. Many tools now use the same mechanism, which is fine.
The specific thing I'm talking about here is the physical appearance of the product. This is called "trade dress", which is a huge part of trademark law. You don't even have to explicitly file a trademark to have trade dress protection.
Knipex pliers wrenches are extemely unique. The matte chrome, the red textured grip, the specific kink in the handle, the very distinctive diamond cut outs arranged in a specific way on the dynamic jaw. Do you know why that cut out is a diamond shape? Hint: Look at Knipex's corporate logo. Those cutouts in the jaw serve no functional purpose. Individually, things like matte chrome are not unique. It's the specific combination of all those things together that make for trade dress. It's a blatant violation of Knipex's trade dress. Those pliers have 100% been designed to look exactly like the Knipex and cause confusion.
Other examples of trade dress include things like vehicle grilles and condiment bottles. For example the border and colors on the classic Heinz label would be an example of trade dress.
Or the classic Jeep 7 slot grille with round headlights. There's nothing wrong with having a slotted grille, or round headlights. But a tall vertical 7 slot grille with round headlights is a distinctive Jeep trade dress. Jeep actually prevailed in a trade dress lawsuit against Mahindra very recenty. Mahindra was forced to redesign the Roxor's grille.
You should probably do some reading on "trade dress" and the Lanham Act before making such statements.
Here's a good starter:
Trade Dress: The Forgotten Trademark Right - FindLaw
TRADE DRESS: THE FORGOTTEN TRADEMARK RIGHT. Find out more about this topic, read articles and blogs or research legal issues, cases, and codes on FindLaw.com.
corporate.findlaw.com
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Meursault74
Well-known member
I'd agree that the diamond cut out is to make it look like a Knipex as it serves no other purpose. There are differences. Likely enough to not get dinged for it. Otherwise, they would have made the cut out another shape or not made one. I'm sure HF has experts on this subject. This is a side-by-side comparison. Images are not to scale as I copied them from different places.
I'd say vote with YOUR wallet. That's really all you can do.
I'd say vote with YOUR wallet. That's really all you can do.
The most notable feature that makes them not like "channellocks" is that when opening / closing the jaws stay parallel. They don't pivot open / closed. So they can really be used to turn nuts, bolts and such. They are also great for bending flat stuff such as sheet metal.
Seth
Mohawk Dave
Well-known member
Serious! I have used mine more on straightening metal than actual fasteners. And they work damn good for that....if a metal lip is bent up, I can have it primo in no time with the Knipex.
And it is a whole different level of possible misunderstanding here. Specifically, nobody is thinking they are buying Snap-on anywhere but a Snap-on truck or website. No one saw a Daytona jack and said 'Snap-On is selling acks at HF!'
On the other hand, Knipex is sold many places. A less than wary consumer might think ;these are those cool ones I saw before at....' Someone needs to break the two, side by side with measuring devices....
On the other hand, Knipex is sold many places. A less than wary consumer might think ;these are those cool ones I saw before at....' Someone needs to break the two, side by side with measuring devices....
Jarhead0408
Well-known member
HF will sell a ton of them.
I’ll be sticking with Knipex unless I have a need for these on the fly/in a pinch.
I’m waaaay too deep into Knipex to want to buy even a good knockoff for regular use. I want to keep paying the company that has done well by me.
I’ll be sticking with Knipex unless I have a need for these on the fly/in a pinch.
I’m waaaay too deep into Knipex to want to buy even a good knockoff for regular use. I want to keep paying the company that has done well by me.
sweet victory
Well-known member
I will continue to support the brand known for innovating the pliers we know and love. I cannot believe Harbor Freight had the audacity to print "Designed by Icon Tools" on the packaging. What an effing joke.