To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!

Tools4Me

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2021
Messages
546
Several of you aren't comparing the correct Pliers Wrenches. The Icon pliers wrench is almost an exact copy of the original Knipex Pliers Wrench that was sold up until their revised Pliers Wrenches came out several years ago. It looks to me like Icon basically made a carbon copy of the original Knipex design and then added the laser etched size markings of the current Knipex version and that's it. The original design didn't have sides that stuck out on the jaws to hold the plastic jaw inserts (that's why the plastic jaw inserts only work well on the newer Pliers Wrenches) and they didn't have the ribbed finger grip areas at the top of the coated handles. Those are basically the only two differences between the Knipex and Icon wrenches. I don't know how all the legal stuff works, but maybe they can get away with it because they know Knipex is a German company and HF only exists in the US so they are betting Knipex won't bother trying to sue.

When HF came out with a plier line that consisted of almost exact copies of Channellock's entire plier line I was a bit frustrated by the blatant copying and how it would inevitably affect Channellock in the long run. I also realized complaining would never amount to much because Channellock's plier designs are all so basic there's really no way to prove any wrongdoing legally. There are a couple things I do go to HF for, but blatant Pliers Wrench copying like this is the sort of thing that makes me want to rethink whether or not I want to ever give HF my money again.

I agree with a few others here, it doesn't mean anything to me even if Project Farm or someone else does a head to head comparison between Knipex and HF and finds that both wrenches are equal in terms of quality. I will gladly pay a little more to get a product from a company that strives to make great products over a company that only strives to take market share away from companies that make great products. If I don't have the money to cover the difference, I would rather wait and buy the original version used instead of buying the copy version new for the same price. At least that way my money isn't helping to reward blatant copying of tools from another tool manufacturer that I love.
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

JeepYJ

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
8,946
Maybe they will sue. It worked out well for Snapon. Something I just don't get is where are all the buy USA only people on threads like this?
I'm not a fan of the Knipex but then I really don't care much for my Klein's. Usually I go to Channelock or some sort of Crescent style wrench. The old style monkey wrenches are among my favorites also and I'm younger than most on this board.
The made in USA fans don’t have a dog in this fight. Knipex is German and Icon is Taiwan made. Channellocks version of this is not even a competitor to the Knipex.
 

lardy1

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
3,397
Location
Michigan
They'll sell and I suspect they will sell well. But not to me. I inspected a set of the Doyle knockoffs of the Knipex Cobra and put them right back on the hook. The price difference wasn't significant enough for me to settle for what I perceived as the inferior product.

I'm not condemning the new product because I haven't even seen one. But my past experience with Harbor Freight have all been very similar. There's a reason they cost less. And that reason is usually good enough for me to take my money somewhere else.
 

M635_Guy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
4,334
Location
NC
I'm not arguing the patent of the mechanism. Knipex patented the parallel jaw mechanism over 25 years ago, and the patent is long expired for the mechanism. Many tools now use the same mechanism, which is fine.

The specific thing I'm talking about here is the physical appearance of the product. This is called "trade dress", which is a huge part of trademark law. You don't even have to explicitly file a trademark to have trade dress protection.

Knipex pliers wrenches are extemely unique. The matte chrome, the red textured grip, the specific kink in the handle, the very distinctive diamond cut outs arranged in a specific way on the dynamic jaw. Do you know why that cut out is a diamond shape? Hint: Look at Knipex's corporate logo. Those cutouts in the jaw serve no functional purpose. Individually, things like matte chrome are not unique. It's the specificI' combination of all those things together that make for trade dress. It's a blatant violation of Knipex's trade dress. Those pliers have 100% been designed to look exactly like the Knipex and cause confusion.

Other examples of trade dress include things like vehicle grilles and condiment bottles. For example the border and colors on the classic Heinz label would be an example of trade dress.

Or the classic Jeep 7 slot grille with round headlights. There's nothing wrong with having a slotted grille, or round headlights. But a tall vertical 7 slot grille with round headlights is a distinctive Jeep trade dress. Jeep actually prevailed in a trade dress lawsuit against Mahindra very recenty. Mahindra was forced to redesign the Roxor's grille.

You should probably do some reading on "trade dress" and the Lanham Act before making such statements.

Here's a good starter:
LoL - I know enough about it to know the bar is set higher than where they sit. Are they at the edge of where trade dress protection might come into play? Questionable at best.

Did you even read your own link? The basis can't be functional, which would be a very strong start for HF's argument. Section 1 (b) and (c) would more than likely not be in favor of Knipex overall.

FWIW - I own and love a set of the the Knipex pliers wrenches as well as a couple pairs of Cobras. I think they're outstanding tools (though pricey). I doubt Knipex is going to be measurably hurt from this - people who are willing to pay their prices to get the quality and customer service that comes along with the tools are probably not the typical HF buyer.

I will probably grab a pair of these for my tool roll - they're really handy and the tools I take with me to car shows/etc. often wind up in the hands of others. Sometimes the path back to me isn't short, and not having to worry about them getting lost or damaged is a good thing.
 
Last edited:

JeepYJ

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
8,946
I will probably grab a pair of these for my tool roll - they're really handy and the tools I take with me to car shows/etc. often wind up in the hands of others. Sometimes the path back to me isn't short, and not having to worry about them getting lost or damaged is a good thing.
I just bought a Knipex pliers wrench at Menards for ≈$55 after rebate. For the $10-15 difference I wouldn’t put the Icon in the cheap disposable tool category like a $3 pliers off the clearance table at Tractor Supply. I’m sure HF will sell literal boatloads of them though.
 

M635_Guy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
4,334
Location
NC
I just bought a Knipex pliers wrench at Menards for ≈$55 after rebate. For the $10-15 difference I wouldn’t put the Icon in the cheap disposable tool category like a $3 pliers off the clearance table at Tractor Supply. I’m sure HF will sell literal boatloads of them though.
I don't really do the cheap/disposable thing as a general rule for anything I plan to have around and use. I'll likely wait on a sale of some kind and have a little over thirty bucks in them. I own various Icon tools and have been very happy with them - I have zero doubts that it will be a nice tool and completely functional.

I had a buddy at a show who was already having a bad day with his car, and then broke something I loaned him that was kinda pricey. He felt terrible, apologized repeatedly, wanted to replace it/etc. - I told him not to worry about it and helped him finish getting things fixed. Honestly, I was pretty bummed about the tool but he bought me lunch and it was a good chance to hang out with a good guy. Thirty bucks isn't cheap, but it allows my Knipex stuff stay home and if it comes back broken or not at all, I'm less pained about it. That's good enough for me. :dunno:
 

Iridium rand

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 23, 2021
Messages
218
The patent on the mechanism is probably expired by now, but Knipex would still have standing to defend the specific appearance of the tool.

There are lots of parallel jaw pliers that use a similar or same mechanism to Knipex. None of them look exactly the same. These are a blatant clone.

Just like how all the early patents on cars have expired, but GM can't just build a car that looks exactly like the Mustang and call it a Palomino.
True about all the others looking different, however this is not because it’s illegal for them to look too similar, it’s because every other tool company has a reputation to worry about (and some dignity for that matter🤣) these are 100% shameless and would expect to see it from no other company, HF on the other hand is already well known for knockoffs. Others usually copy a concept and try to innovate on it with varying degrees of success or at least make it look like their own product
 

JeepYJ

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
8,946
I don't really do the cheap/disposable thing as a general rule for anything I plan to have around and use. I'll likely wait on a sale of some kind and have a little over thirty bucks in them. I own various Icon tools and have been very happy with them - I have zero doubts that it will be a nice tool and completely functional.

I had a buddy at a show who was already having a bad day with his car, and then broke something I loaned him that was kinda pricey. He felt terrible, apologized repeatedly, wanted to replace it/etc. - I told him not to worry about it and helped him finish getting things fixed. Honestly, I was pretty bummed about the tool but he bought me lunch and it was a good chance to hang out with a good guy. Thirty bucks isn't cheap, but it allows my Knipex stuff stay home and if it comes back broken or not at all, I'm less pained about it. That's good enough for me. :dunno:
If you, or your friend, break your Icon pliers any HF will give you a new one no questions asked. Idk how the Knipex warranty works?
 

Odd-job

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
2,265
Location
SF Bay Area
Thank goodness there isn't a 20% coupon right now. If you guys need instant gratification though, these are still going for $23. I have been using these along with my 2 other Knipexs. Actually appreciate the bigger button when wearing gloves. The Knipexs aren't worth 2x the price either unless you really need red to match your Knipex collection.


1646233930474.png


Rebranded Fujiyas, made in Taiwan.

This is probably my 5th post about these, but want to spread the word especially for those new or considering pliers wrenches.
 

four.cycle

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
28,740
Location
Tacoma, Washington
M635_Guy said:
I doubt Knipex is going to be measurably hurt from this.

Knipex will suffer to the same degree as Snap-on does from sales of ratchets with handles that are carbon-copies of their patented 1942 Chapman design - not one iota.

Brand loyalty, combined with confirmation bias, will both assure that Knipex retains its majority market share for this genre of product.

patent D132891 Jun 30 1942 D. Chapman.jpg
 

American Locomotive

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
10,952
Location
Rhode Island
LoL - I know enough about it to know the bar is set higher than where they sit. Are they at the edge of where trade dress protection might come into play? Questionable at best.

Did you even read your own link? The basis can't be functional, which would be a very strong start for HF's argument. Section 1 (b) and (c) would more than likely not be in favor of Knipex overall.
That's my point. The diamonds in the dynamic jaw, arranged in that particular pattern - are non-functional. They don't need to be there, and serve no purpose besides aesthetics. Likewise, the dipped handles don't have to be red - they're red for trade-dress purposes. The matte chrome plating doesn't need to be there, and it could be any number of finishes- The matte chrome is an aesthetic trade dress choice. The other various little stampings and shapes of objects on the pliers are also examples of non-functional design details that are unique to Knipex's trade dress.

I think the biggest case for Knipex would be all of the competitors that have been posted in this thread. Almost all of those competitors use the same exact mechanism, but absolutely none of them look remotely like the Knipex Pliers Wrench.

These icon wrenches look exactly the same as the Gen 1 Knipex Pliers wrench. They're so close I almost wonder if they bought the tooling from Knipex.
 

M635_Guy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
4,334
Location
NC
That's my point. The diamonds in the dynamic jaw, arranged in that particular pattern - are non-functional. They don't need to be there, and serve no purpose besides aesthetics. Likewise, the dipped handles don't have to be red - they're red for trade-dress purposes. The matte chrome plating doesn't need to be there, and it could be any number of finishes- The matte chrome is an aesthetic trade dress choice. The other various little stampings and shapes of objects on the pliers are also examples of non-functional design details that are unique to Knipex's trade dress.

I think the biggest case for Knipex would be all of the competitors that have been posted in this thread. Almost all of those competitors use the same exact mechanism, but absolutely none of them look remotely like the Knipex Pliers Wrench.

These icon wrenches look exactly the same as the Gen 1 Knipex Pliers wrench. They're so close I almost wonder if they bought the tooling from Knipex.
I don't think you understand the protections of trade dress as well as you think you do, and especially how this is likely to play in court in the unlikely event that Knipex were to take it there. I'm not saying I'm an expert either, but my experience in this area, the fact that HF almost certainly has a process where anything like this goes through an internal IP legal review, combined with the numerous far-more-egregious examples that exist in the world lead me to say pretty comfortably that the bar is set higher than that. The team at Knipex probably rolled their eyes, but they didn't run to change their production planning or any financials because of it.


[Part of the experience I'm referring to is a product I used to manage at a large company. We had multiple design and ID patents on this thing, which in part was due to a desire to eliminate a problem in the previous version of copies being made a sold, in some cases being outright fraudulently represented as branded/genuine parts, causing technical and warranty issues for customers/etc. When the copies of the new thing inevitably showed up, I raised hell with the legal department to issue a cease-and-desist and/or sue them. The answer was that our chances of winning were slim, and our chances/costs of not-winning or losing made the effort nonviable. My ID and functional patents were far fresher and more unique than anything going on with this copy of an old Knipex tool, so I'm just telling ya...]
 
Last edited:

qqzj

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
3,747
Among tool companies, HF probably has the best lawyer team. So it's funny that so many people think they are better at law.

But I do think the price is too high so that the difference is not very meaningful. They should have branded them Doyle and set the price at $30. Then it becomes really competitive.
 

will335i

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Messages
497
Location
IL
Patents don't last forever. There is a point where they become public domain. You see it in pharmaceuticals all the time it's also why you see drugs getting rebranded for different things so that the original company can keep the patent longer. This is how ******(Sildenafil) started life as a heart medication and ended up as a **** pill.

You also have to understand what is being protected by the patent. Adjustable wrench? No chance there are tons of adjustable wrenches out there and so that part of the design is likely not "unique and distinguishable" enough to warrant a new patent. If I were to guess the only part of the design that Knipex was able to patent would be the locking button mechanism but given the other brands that use that now either they are leasing out the design or it has fallen into public domain.

People like to bag on Harbor Freight and yes the Icon is a shameless copy but how many adjustable wrenches are out there that you can only tell apart by looking at the brand name on them, or needle nose pliers, hammers, screwdrivers, sockets, etc.

FWIW almost all my pliers are Knipex now and I will continue to support them but understand this has happened many times in the tool world and will continue to happen. It doesn't make a company bad by copying an existing design. If they are willfully violating a patent then by all means don't support them but we don't have that information. So buy the original or buy the copy who cares.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

gjusername

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2018
Messages
78
Location
Uranus
Personally I appreciate harbor freight for making cheap knockoffs of other products. There are a lot of tools that they have made accessible to me as a diy'er, where the only option previously would have been a professional grade tol which would be far too expensive for me to consider buying.

That said, this is not a cheap (in price, quality is tbd) knockoff. It's just a knockoff that they're trying to sell as a premium product, for way too close to the price of the real deal. No thanks, I'll stick to the knipex.

I would be happy to receive them as a gift of course, I'm sure OPs friend will appreciate it, but I wouldn't spend my money on these. They would have to knock the price down by about 50% to be an attractive option imo.
 
Last edited:

mrvm

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
3,839
Location
PA
As I recall, last time I peered into his tool bag, he had a pair of those ****** black Craftsman "Robo-Pliers" things.
Just a wild-*** guess, but I think these might be a game-changer for him.
Hmmm….just about anything would be better than the Robo-pliers. He ought to be very impressed with the new Icons if they are a good copy. I own at least 5 Knipex plier wrenches and use them regularly. Those crappy CM pliers got my $ many years ago and sometimes wonder why I still have them in the back of the bottom drawer.
 

Iridium rand

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 23, 2021
Messages
218
Personally I appreciate harbor freight for making cheap knockoffs of other products. There are a lot of tools that they have made accessible to me as a diy'er, where the only option previously would have been a professional grade tol which would be far too expensive for me to consider buying.

That said, this is not a cheap knockoff. It's just a knockoff that they're trying to sell as a premium product, for way too close to the price of the real deal. No thanks, I'll stick to the knipex.

I would be happy to receive them as a gift of course, I'm sure OPs friend will appreciate it, but I wouldn't spend my money on these. They would have to knock the price down by about 50% to be an attractive option imo.
There were tons of options available for pliers wrenches, many of them very good and absolutely fit and priced for a DIY user Such as the carlyle posted above, and there’s nothing wrong with producing a similar design at a lower price point

this on the other hand is as shameless a knockoff as it gets, if it weren’t for that I’m sure everyone would be indifferent or happy to see a pliers wrench available from HF especially if it was priced appropriately
 

General Geoff

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
3,873
Location
Allentown, Pennsylvania
Well I managed to find a nearby store that just got these in, they weren't even on the shelf yet. They had to crack a box open fresh off the truck to give me one. I just had to have one to take pics and compare/contrast to the OG Knipex, which I've had for over a decade now.

20220302_184346.jpg

First impressions: It's a damn good copy. Quality of casting is nearly identical to the Knipex, dimensions are almost exactly the same all around. The Icon is chromed, the OG Knipex is nickel plated. The Icon opens a tiny bit more (50 vs 46mm). The Knipex skinny grips are indeed thinner than the bigger but cushier Icon grips, which are still not as large as Knipex's own optional comfort grips. They open and close the same, have the same feel, same heft, same very slight play between components.

I'll report back later after I've used the Icons for a bit to verify they work and function the same, though I expect they will.

The forgings are so similar, I wouldn't be surprised if you could disassemble and interchange parts between them.
 

unslow1

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Messages
7,880
Location
Illinois
It looks so similar it wouldn't surprise me to see they came from the same castings.
 

vssjim

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
2,713
Location
McLean Va.
I'm not sure who made the first adjustable wrench but since most call it a "Crescent" wrench let's say they did it first. Don't they all pretty much look the same within reason? Is everyone copying Crescent, or do form and function go together?
BAHCO before S-O bought them and killed off a lot of tools they made all in Sweden used to have in the handle forging the size and the logo Invented by BAHCO so maybe Crescent was the first US company but I guess this is one of the unknowns.
 

gatewaysysop

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
3,290
Location
Arizona
This reeks of cheap, underhanded and slimy sales tactics. Why anyone would feel comfortable purchasing ripoff **** like this from the king of cheap and ****** is a completely foreign concept to me.

Couldn't agree more. Other than scholarly interest, like what has already been posted here, I can't see any reason to buy knock offs if one afford the genuine article. It's such a blatant and shameless copy that I wouldn't be caught dead with them in my garage.
 

johnny_boy02

Active member
Joined
Oct 25, 2021
Messages
41
Location
Northern CA
That's not going to happen.
I've never been drunk or stoned enough to pay $70 bucks for a pair of pliers. ;)
$70 for a tool that will probably last for many years compared to a $40 tool that might last for many years doesn’t really sound all that expensive.

Im not a HF or Icon hater but I’ll pass on these and stick with the real thing.
 

KnurledNut

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
8,123
Location
n/a
Im completely unbiased and neutral about these.
I have no interest in aquiring them, and will continue to support Knipex.
But if Taiwans reputation runs true here, dont be surprised if they work and last really well.
Whichever manufacturer made them seemed to do an impressive job.
 

johninct

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
2,595
Well I managed to find a nearby store that just got these in, they weren't even on the shelf yet. They had to crack a box open fresh off the truck to give me one. I just had to have one to take pics and compare/contrast to the OG Knipex, which I've had for over a decade now.

20220302_184346.jpg

First impressions: It's a damn good copy. Quality of casting is nearly identical to the Knipex, dimensions are almost exactly the same all around. The Icon is chromed, the OG Knipex is nickel plated. The Icon opens a tiny bit more (50 vs 46mm). The Knipex skinny grips are indeed thinner than the bigger but cushier Icon grips, which are still not as large as Knipex's own optional comfort grips. They open and close the same, have the same feel, same heft, same very slight play between components.

I'll report back later after I've used the Icons for a bit to verify they work and function the same, though I expect they will.

The forgings are so similar, I wouldn't be surprised if you could disassemble and interchange parts between them.
How much are they? When I was last at HF, their prices on some tools seemed too high for me to be willing to take a chance on something and if they did not work at least as good as the real one, it would be cheaper long run to just go out and get the real one.
 

General Geoff

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
3,873
Location
Allentown, Pennsylvania
How much are they? When I was last at HF, their prices on some tools seemed too high for me to be willing to take a chance on something and if they did not work at least as good as the real one, it would be cheaper long run to just go out and get the real one.
$40 + applicable sales tax. Cheaper than the Knipex version has been since at least 2012, that I've seen anyway. Came close a couple years ago when Zoro had a sale on the 12" version that ended up being $50. Snagged a couple of those for xmas gifts at the time.

Assuming they are as durable as the Knipex original, $40 is a good price. Not great, but good. Throw in the occasionally-offered 20 or 25% off Icon tools coupon, and for $30 or $32 it's a great deal.
 

American Locomotive

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
10,952
Location
Rhode Island
Those bastards at Geodore too...
5Fsds5.jpg
Somebody should sue them!!

pgNW3y.gif
Come on dude. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that HF copied the Knipex tool down to every last fine detail. The Geodore tool while similar, is quite a bit different and really would not be visually mistaken for an actual Knipex tool - especially when side by side with another. Like I said before, Chrysler successfully sued Mahindra over the Roxor, and the Roxor looks a lot less like a modern Jeep, than that Icon tool does the Knipex original.
20220302_184346.jpg

It amazes me how often people complain about high-end western businesses shutting down/off-shoring production, but have no problem with egregious trademark infringement and bumming of other people's work. I would have no problem with the HF pliers if they had designed their own tool, with its own aesthetics - even if it used the same mechanism. Instead they literally popped the thing into a 3D Laser Scanner (or a CMM) and literally had exact clones of the original Knipex forging dies made.
 

qqzj

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
3,747
I remember some knowledgeable fellow said copying is the best way to show respect. Surprised that HF gets so much heat for paying homage to Knipex. 🤣
 

corn chip

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 15, 2021
Messages
672
i wonder what knipex response would be. brush it off like nothing or ears perk up. has anyone tried contacting them ? perhaps with the photos lol
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom