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Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!

M635_Guy

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I went to the HF website to find them, and looks like they are currently not available. So perhaps HF got a cease and desist?
I can't say for sure, but they're probably just out of stock. A cease and desist from a law firm is a request. To get an order from a judge, they'd have to file a suit and request an injunction while the case proceeded. Lincoln tried that during their suit and it was denied. Their case was ultimately dismissed with prejudice.
I'm also not sure where the comparison in price keeps comparing the $40 HF option to some "$45-50" Knipex ones. Perhaps I'm alone but all the Knipex options I saw for that size were $63-70.
People love to compare the sale prices in situations like this. I waited a bit to try to catch a sales price on my Knipex stuff and wasn't successful. I bought my 10" pair and then got the other two pairs in a bundle/kit to save a few bucks. I've never seen a 10" pair lower than $50 - not sure I ever saw them lower than $60. Once in a while we'll still probably see 20% coupons that will put the Icon at $32. A fair way to look at it would probably be: "List $69 vs. $40, and sale ~$60 vs. $32"
 
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dstblj52

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I think it may be because Box wrenches are not so ****. The Plyers wrench from Knipex was innovative and unique. Plus some people jumped to the false conclusion they were shamelessly coping a patent protected tool......... I dont fully get it. Some like to **** on HF any chance they see fit. there must be 1,000 posts on this board complaining about some HF tool or experience. I know some is surely justified.

So how do you like those Icon box wrenches?
Not the OP on this but I have a set of the Sae and their very nice wrenches especially for the 70 bucks I paid for them open box
 

Mb4

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I can't say for sure, but they're probably just out of stock. A cease and desist from a law firm is a request. To get an order from a judge, they'd have to file a suit and request an injunction while the case proceeded. Lincoln tried that during their suit and it was denied. Their case was ultimately dismissed with prejudice.
I tend to agree that they are probably out of stock. I couldn't find a pending case on PACER (haven't checked state courts). However, a cease and desist letter - while not having the legal force of a TRO letter - may nevertheless be heeded by the recipient if counsel determines that the costs of litigation exceed the costs of compliance with the letter, or if the opposing party is likely to succeed on the merits of the case.
 

M635_Guy

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I tend to agree that they are probably out of stock. I couldn't find a pending case on PACER (haven't checked state courts). However, a cease and desist letter - while not having the legal force of a TRO letter - may nevertheless be heeded by the recipient if counsel determines that the costs of litigation exceed the costs of compliance with the letter, or if the opposing party is likely to succeed on the merits of the case.
Well, and the other downstream costs of exiting the product line as-is, etc.

I strongly doubt these things got as far as the stores without a thorough legal review. If that's true and then my legal team wilts at a cease and desist letter, if I was the head cat at HF, I'm going to be getting a new legal team.
 

PugetDude

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Got a cease and desist letter about 10 years ago from a sleazy attorney who was trying to cut me out of a real estate transaction.

I wrote

“**** You, strong letter to follow “ across the top and sent it back. Never heard another word from them.
 

dagofast

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For anyone that cares, the jennuwine article raptors are on sale for 25% off ($39.99) right now. But then you'll be putting rocket fuel in a kajillionaires pocket by NOT buying them from from your local mom & pop tool store. Buy a pair. Or discuss all of the pros & cons at your leisure.
 

nbpt100

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I tend to agree that they are probably out of stock. I couldn't find a pending case on PACER (haven't checked state courts). However, a cease and desist letter - while not having the legal force of a TRO letter - may nevertheless be heeded by the recipient if counsel determines that the costs of litigation exceed the costs of compliance with the letter, or if the opposing party is likely to succeed on the merits of the case.
Yes I agree. I was looking up other items on HF and saw can not ship or out of stock. But no reference to the store having them. I suspect they are dealing with a spike in on line sales. Some stores may have them in stock and that keep the walk in customers coming back. Since the pandemic I have seen this with some one time use Items I purchase on a regular basis from Wal-Mart.com. From time to time the website will say in-store purchase only.

From what it appears HF is far from the only company making/selling the knock offs. I bet they were all chomping on the bit waiting for the patent to expire.

Those 20% off paper coupons (for most any item) at HF are a rare item now. You use to see them every week and just expected to always have one when desired. Now they are a few times a year and expire pretty quickly.

Just wondering does anyone have an active one now?
 

JeepYJ

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My motorcycle however is a Harley, because that I care about. Sure I could get "the same thing" for half or less the price, but it's not the same to me and I know that. I don't feel about pliers the way I feel about my Harley. YMMV
Who’s making knock-off HD motorcycles?
 

Mb4

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Who’s making knock-off HD motorcycles?
Regardless of whether cheaper motorcycles are properly characterized as knockoff Harley Davidsons, I understand his point. Harbor Freight succeeded because and only because they sold dirt cheap tools. Some of those tools turned out to all right, though, such tools were rare compared to the massive quantities of barely passable junk they made/make.

Forget Harley Davidson. Think Dollar Tree/Dollar General. There's nothing wrong with Dollar Tree. Sometimes they have good deals and sell useful things, just like Harbor Freight. But the day Dollar Tree starts charging WalMart prices is the day Dollar Tree prepackages its bankruptcy petition. If Harbor Freight starts trying to "move upmarket" with their pricing, I think the same thing will happen there.
 

sk farmer

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I noticed that Capri now has a pliers wrench version in their lineup. Not at $40.00 though.
could you imagine what would happen if tekton made a version?

a topic called "look out knipex, hear comes tekton" would not have made it past the first page. and people would be pounding their fist about how great it was in singing its praises at every chance.
 

nbpt100

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could you imagine what would happen if tekton made a version?

a topic called "look out knipex, hear comes tekton" would not have made it past the first page. and people would be pounding their fist about how great it was in singing its praises at every chance.

They will. We will see.
Forget Harley Davidson. Think Dollar Tree/Dollar General. There's nothing wrong with Dollar Tree. Sometimes they have good deals and sell useful things, just like Harbor Freight. But the day Dollar Tree starts charging WalMart prices is the day Dollar Tree prepackages its bankruptcy petition. If Harbor Freight starts trying to "move upmarket" with their pricing, I think the same thing will happen there.
They are now $1.25 Tree. But that is another topic. Harbor Freight is slowly introducing better quality products and is moving up market. But it is a slow phase in without removing much of their cheap stuff . The last time I was in a HF (about 2 months ago) it was still mostly the Pittsburgh, and their other cheap stuff. They are giving options rather than going all in one direction. So far it appears they are successful at it.

The 10" Gedore mentioned here 2 days ago was priced about $10 more than Knipex. So are they better than Knipex? Or are they selling to people who want convenience and dont have time to comparison shop?

The Capri is priced about the same at Knipex. Should we conclude they are the same quality?

 
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four.cycle

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^ Do we have any members who own a copy of the "Capri" version?
My understanding is that all of Capri's product line is outsourced from Taiwan (R.O.C.)

Obviously these are going to be cloned by every tool maker out there.
I'm sure somebody will manage to figure out a way to get below Harbor Freight's price point.
 

UglyViking

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Who’s making knock-off HD motorcycles?
Harley, and to some affect Indian, are "the cruiser motorcycles". Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki are a few well known brands that all sell knock off Harleys. Sure at this point it's known as "the cruiser" but all these brands traded off Harleys innovation and designs, regardless if they directly stole anything or not. While maybe not as blatant as the HF vs Knipex I'm trying to draw similarities and comparisons.

The main one of which is that unless you're just made of cash you're probably buying knock offs of stuff. Could be a boot design, could be pots and pans, could be a bunch of things. My point is that not everyone is looking for "the original" or "the best" in every single item. Some people just are looking for something that solves a problem, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Regardless of whether cheaper motorcycles are properly characterized as knockoff Harley Davidsons, I understand his point. Harbor Freight succeeded because and only because they sold dirt cheap tools. Some of those tools turned out to all right, though, such tools were rare compared to the massive quantities of barely passable junk they made/make.

Forget Harley Davidson. Think Dollar Tree/Dollar General. There's nothing wrong with Dollar Tree. Sometimes they have good deals and sell useful things, just like Harbor Freight. But the day Dollar Tree starts charging WalMart prices is the day Dollar Tree prepackages its bankruptcy petition. If Harbor Freight starts trying to "move upmarket" with their pricing, I think the same thing will happen there.
I think HF is actually working on expanding beyond their current "basement bin pricing and quality" into a bit more upmarket option. Look at their Icon line as an example. Time will tell how long that line sticks around but it seems to be selling really well, and they continue to update their product line either to fix products (flex head 3/8 ratchet) or make updates/improvements (socket updates). I don't know if that will save them, or even if HF intends to keep Icon around that long but from everything I see all signs point to this being a long term plan.

Frankly, I think Icon looks to be the modern day Craftsman in a lot of ways, at least in terms of in store purchases. If you can find GearWrench in store thats also an option, and Tekton is supposedly coming to Lowes, but at least near me that isn't the case.

Anyway, I think what put Harbor Freight on the map isn't going to be what gets them to the next level. This is something that is completely common in the business world. A young energetic founder starts a company, and after an initial huge launch drives it into the ground. Why? Because "what got you here won't get you there". HF is at a point where they have made their market as a cheap "disposable" tool company, but all signs point to them wanting to be a player at the mid tier level.

All that said, my point around the other items is that not everyone wants or can afford Snap-On. I would love a snap on box, with all the snap on tools, but I don't use them enough to justify the cost (ie. I don't earn a living with them), I can't spend the time hunting around for used options, and/or refinishing something, so it's not an option. Knipex is a similar, but not the same, boat. I'm probably not going to spend $60-70 on a single pair of pliers. I may drop $30, because I hear great things, and try it out. Again, everyone is different here. Some people only buy Levis, some people buy whatever walmart has, some people spend $400 on lucky or whatever the hotness in jeans is now. My point is that unless you're pulling in millions a year you can't be the guy that buys snap on, and harleys, and lucky jeans, and red wing boots, and all-clad pots, and… well you catch my drift.
 

PugetDude

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Amazon/Lowes/Home Depot/ Menards/Ace/True Value/Tractor Supply, etc all sell tools (hand and power) made in China.
Harbor Freight does exactly the same, but seems to garner 99% of the hate and discontent here on the GJ.
Why such subjective prosecution?
 
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M635_Guy

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Amazon/Lowes/Home Depot/ Menards/Ace/True Value/Tractor Supply, etc all sell tools (hand and power) made in China.
Harbor Freight does exactly the same, but seems to garner 99% of the hate and discontent here on the GJ.
Why such subjective prosecution?
Hurty feelings apparently. Maybe they have CAB-smell-trauma syndrome.

I have to admit, I took a break from HF for years because it smelled funny and there wasn't a lot of quality in the store (this was 25+ years ago). But then Sears died and Northern Tool didn't have what I wanted. The HF was a quarter-mile away from NT, so I went there, got what I needed. The store smelled fine, the tool was fine and Sears was still very dead, so I kept going back. And they've been great.

But that smell must stay with some people or something. I agree with @PugetDude - I'd actually argue NT/TractorSupply/etc. Supply are even more "guilty" of what everyone screams about with HF. I'd be pretty surprised if those places offer the benefits to their employees that HF does (even the part-time associates get a matched 401K, for example), pays above minimum wage, a medical plan (though you have to be full-time to get full medical insurance), etc.
 
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Amazon/Lowes/Home Depot/ Menards/Ace/True Value/Tractor Supply, etc all sell tools (hand and power) made in China.
Harbor Freight does exactly the same, but seems to garner 99% of the hate and discontent here on the GJ.
Why such subjective prosecution?
Harbor Freight used to be mainly cheap poor quality stuff. Craftsman was great, but went downhill and skips sizes in their sets so you can't ever build a complete set. Recently, I needed to buy a 2nd set of tools. After weighing my options, I ended up at Harbor freight with 2 carts full of mostly Icon tools. I did get some Milwaukee and other tools from Home Depot and a local hardware store. They didn't have everything I needed, so I've been on the SO and Matco trucks also. If I had gone only on the tool trucks, I would only have a 1/4 to a 1/3 of the tools I was able to buy. So far the Icon tools are working flawlessly. The other guys were even impressed for how much I have for the money I spent and the quality of the Icon tools. Honestly, it's a great way to get started. Now that I have my main tool set, I can afford to pick and choose to replace some with sets from the tool trucks if I feel it's necessary. The only thing I've broken so far was from Snap On though. I'm going to keep investing in "cost effective" tools, whatever brand that happens to be.
 

Mb4

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Harley, and to some affect Indian, are "the cruiser motorcycles". Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki are a few well known brands that all sell knock off Harleys. Sure at this point it's known as "the cruiser" but all these brands traded off Harleys innovation and designs, regardless if they directly stole anything or not. While maybe not as blatant as the HF vs Knipex I'm trying to draw similarities and comparisons.

The main one of which is that unless you're just made of cash you're probably buying knock offs of stuff. Could be a boot design, could be pots and pans, could be a bunch of things. My point is that not everyone is looking for "the original" or "the best" in every single item. Some people just are looking for something that solves a problem, and there isn't anything wrong with that.


I think HF is actually working on expanding beyond their current "basement bin pricing and quality" into a bit more upmarket option. Look at their Icon line as an example. Time will tell how long that line sticks around but it seems to be selling really well, and they continue to update their product line either to fix products (flex head 3/8 ratchet) or make updates/improvements (socket updates). I don't know if that will save them, or even if HF intends to keep Icon around that long but from everything I see all signs point to this being a long term plan.

Frankly, I think Icon looks to be the modern day Craftsman in a lot of ways, at least in terms of in store purchases. If you can find GearWrench in store thats also an option, and Tekton is supposedly coming to Lowes, but at least near me that isn't the case.

Anyway, I think what put Harbor Freight on the map isn't going to be what gets them to the next level. This is something that is completely common in the business world. A young energetic founder starts a company, and after an initial huge launch drives it into the ground. Why? Because "what got you here won't get you there". HF is at a point where they have made their market as a cheap "disposable" tool company, but all signs point to them wanting to be a player at the mid tier level.

All that said, my point around the other items is that not everyone wants or can afford Snap-On. I would love a snap on box, with all the snap on tools, but I don't use them enough to justify the cost (ie. I don't earn a living with them), I can't spend the time hunting around for used options, and/or refinishing something, so it's not an option. Knipex is a similar, but not the same, boat. I'm probably not going to spend $60-70 on a single pair of pliers. I may drop $30, because I hear great things, and try it out. Again, everyone is different here. Some people only buy Levis, some people buy whatever walmart has, some people spend $400 on lucky or whatever the hotness in jeans is now. My point is that unless you're pulling in millions a year you can't be the guy that buys snap on, and harleys, and lucky jeans, and red wing boots, and all-clad pots, and… well you catch my drift.
Overall, a very thoughtful post. I don't think Harbor Freight is going to be able to get past their Dollar Tree tool store image. Their attempts at midgrade tools are still (mostly) rubbish. Look at AvE's videos. There's no love for Harbor Freight on the jobsite, either. Those guys will go Ridgid or Ryobi before they'll ever go "Bauer," "Chicago Electric," or whatever they're naming their most recent heap of trash. The jack stand debacle didn't help them, either.
 

UglyViking

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Overall, a very thoughtful post. I don't think Harbor Freight is going to be able to get past their Dollar Tree tool store image. Their attempts at midgrade tools are still (mostly) rubbish. Look at AvE's videos. There's no love for Harbor Freight on the jobsite, either. Those guys will go Ridgid or Ryobi before they'll ever go "Bauer," "Chicago Electric," or whatever they're naming their most recent heap of trash. The jack stand debacle didn't help them, either.
It's interesting you mention the jack stand issue. I do wonder how many other companies had jack stands by the same company making them for HF. You can either view it as really bad that they failed, or really good that HF did a recall on them and offering cash/credit.

I don't think I'll be buying any "long term" electric tools from HF, but the manual tools, storage, etc. is mostly decent stuff.
 

PugetDude

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Overall, a very thoughtful post. I don't think Harbor Freight is going to be able to get past their Dollar Tree tool store image. Their attempts at midgrade tools are still (mostly) rubbish. Look at AvE's videos. There's no love for Harbor Freight on the jobsite, either. Those guys will go Ridgid or Ryobi before they'll ever go "Bauer," "Chicago Electric," or whatever they're naming their most recent heap of trash. The jack stand debacle didn't help them, either.
Interesting that Dollar Tree and HF have grown exponentially over the past few years; their "image" notwithstanding.
HF now has over 1200 stores, Dollar Tree over 15,000.
Just think if they had followed the lead of the cool kids and focused more on their "image"- instead of executing their own business model- they could be as popular as Sears, Montgomery Wards, A&P, TG&Y, PierOne, Toys R us, etc.
 

Steve_P

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I really wouldn’t make a comparison with pharmaceuticals, for one generics ARE exactly the same by definition and only differ in packaging, and it really wouldn’t make any sense for it to be any other way.

It is not true that generic drugs are all exactly the same as the original drugs: there can be differences in the release mechanisms- in the timing in how the medication is delivered. A generic may release the dose over a few hours where the original may release it more evenly over 8 hours. I read an article on this within the last few years, and it wasn't by PhRMA pushing the original drugs. Saying that, of course I buy generic drugs, that's all most insurance will cover, but it doesn't mean it's 100% the same. But if it's 90% the same for 10% the cost, sure
 

Max

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Harley, and to some affect Indian, are "the cruiser motorcycles". Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki are a few well known brands that all sell knock off Harleys. Sure at this point it's known as "the cruiser" but all these brands traded off Harleys innovation and designs, regardless if they directly stole anything or not. While maybe not as blatant as the HF vs Knipex I'm trying to draw similarities and comparisons.
That's not really the same as what we have here with Icon and Knipex. Did Yamaha/Honda etc. steal styling ideas in their cruisers from Harley (and Indian before) - absolutely yes. Did they steal the engineering or exactly copy the designs - absolutely not. In many cases they surpassed the original, in bikes like the Vmax for example. And so far as innovation, I'd argue that it was the Japanese manufacturers that out innovated Harley in things like many different engine options, suspensions, driveline options, etc. I haven't followed Harley's for the last 10-15 years, but to me it looked like the last time they innovated was when they acquired Buell.

Styling is something that you just can't patent, trademark, or protect. Some simple examples - a Tesla roadster looks like a Lotus, the Tesla Model S from the front looks just like a Porsche Panamera, etc. Feeding off of other company's designs is and has been a constant of the motoring world. In this case with Icon, we're looking at an exact copy of another company's product which is a very different case. It's like if Tesla came out with the model 911 that just happened to exactly copy the Carerra body style in all details... (And yes, I know that names of vehicles can be and are trademarked.)

And no, I don't own a Harley, although I have ridden them. And I don't have a cruiser, nor have I ever had one. My tastes go more towards sport bikes and standards.

If Icon had said "well, the patents are up" and made their own version I'd be fine with it, as more choices is good. But an exact copy, where it looks like they just had an intern measure the Knipex to exactly copy it - that's ****.
 

kngelv

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I finally got a close look at them today. They are admittedly decent copies but I still don’t like the fact that they basically photocopied the original Knipex design. The sad thing was all those blue tags above every item saying “compare to” that named different tool companies. It must **** to have those tags up when you know no other business will ever say compared to Harbor Freight on their tools.

James
 

nbpt100

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The sad thing was all those blue tags above every item saying “compare to” that named different tool companies. It must **** to have those tags up when you know no other business will ever say compared to Harbor Freight on their tools.

James
I think that is what they are shooting for. As long as no competitor is selling a similar item for a lot less than HF, they have nothing to worry about.
 

egdede

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Good point. Maybe the harbor freight version is better suited for applications where lead content is helpful to...uh...not scratch stuff?
 

BreeStephany

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As much as I have been impressed with the ICON brand for the price point, and as much as I have wanted to have a set of smooth jaw plier wrenches, I have been very tempted to go with the ICONs, but at the end of the day, I have been extremely impressed with my Knipex Cobras, so I think at the end of the day I am going to bite the bullet and spend a bit more on the Knipex!

I have been extremely impressed with the attention to detail with Knipex and the quality of the steel and overall build quality. Working with a TON of compression conduit fittings, I use my Cobras EVERY day and they are just as good today as the first day I pulled them out of the package and the handle grips are extremely durable and solvent/oil/chemical resistant.

I have had my Knipex in a lot of extremely high humidity environments (80~90%+ humidity) and they have yet to show even a trace of rust, where as most my Klein tools are showing rust after a day or two of exposure unless I keep them oiled daily.

If you don't use them daily, I think the ICONs are a great tool, but if you use your tools to make yourself money, I would definitely go with Knipex.

Just my two cents.
 

egdede

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To agree with what multiple other people have said, I'd offer was some real world info about Doyle dykes in another (Post 69 Redwrench60 noted) thread:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/kleins-misaligned.495512/

Yeah everyone makes a dud from time to time.
A coworker bought a pair of those Doyle dikes from HF at the beginning of a big project and after the three month re-wire project was done the rivet was slopped out of those things and the jaws just pass each other and won’t make a clean cut. They looked impressive when new, good clean machining and polishing but didn’t hold up cutting 18, 14, 12 and 8 AWG EXANE stranded wire. Sometimes quality can’t be seen.

I believe this is what we need to see re: the HF knock-offs. They can look good but not handle everyday abuse.
 

Ton ton

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I finally got a close look at them today. They are admittedly decent copies but I still don’t like the fact that they basically photocopied the original Knipex design. The sad thing was all those blue tags above every item saying “compare to” that named different tool companies. It must **** to have those tags up when you know no other business will ever say compared to Harbor Freight on their tools.

James
You won the internet for the day.
 

lilscorpion

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Was able to get one in my hand this weekend. Overall, not a bad wrench. disclaimer: I was not able to put my Knipex right next to them so comparisons were from memory - I have all sizes in the gen 1 Knipex design and have beennuaing

I do not like the grip material and have concern that I won’t be able to get them clean like my Knipex nor will the material stand up to cleaning chemicals. Obviously the only way to know would be the test if time. I do like the softness of the material however. The grips are actually soft. Otherwise, the pliers appear to be decent. Not sloppy and the adjustment mechanism doesn’t seem to be noticeably different than my Knipex.

Considering the price, I think that I’ll stick with Knipex for now but will pay attention to future real-world reviews. To pay only $20-ish more and get the real deal just feels like a no brainer. Since my sets have lasted quite a long time, $20 just feels like nothing for proven performance.
 

Iridium rand

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It is not true that generic drugs are all exactly the same as the original drugs: there can be differences in the release mechanisms- in the timing in how the medication is delivered. A generic may release the dose over a few hours where the original may release it more evenly over 8 hours. I read an article on this within the last few years, and it wasn't by PhRMA pushing the original drugs. Saying that, of course I buy generic drugs, that's all most insurance will cover, but it doesn't mean it's 100% the same. But if it's 90% the same for 10% the cost, sure
That’s true that different release mechanisms exist fir the same drug, however that’s considered a separate product as far as patents go and is one of the ways pharma companies abuse the system, repackaging it in a slightly different delivery system. The drug itself is exactly the same however is my main point, and extended release is universally considered it’s own thing from instant release

that being said, there are many instances where the original branded product is actually worse than the generics, especially when abuse deterrent formulations come into play, opana ER off the top of my head (now off the market generics only) was so “abuse resistant” that it literally failed to release the drug, partially or at all when taken orally and the intact pill would come out the other end 🤣 and yet the generics had no such mechanism built in and so worked properly
 

M635_Guy

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Let's not dilute the thread with imperfect examples. I don't think they'd convince anyone anyway.

I've noticed the Icon has gone in and out of stock locally several times since I got my pair at the three HF's near me another three or so a bit farther away.
 

nbpt100

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At this point I do not think the question is are these Icon plyers as good as or better than Knipex. Rather, are they good enough and a decent value for the price. Only time will tell if they hold up to heavy use, occasional abuse or will rust easily.

The casual questions most people ask themselves when they buy something (most anything) are:

"Is it good enough for how I plan to use it?"

The second question is:

"Is the price fair for my expectations?"

Everyone sees these answers differently depending on their circumstances and ideology. This is where HF has done well with the general American public. Enough people are saying yes to both of those questions. I think if the answers were alot more No's they would not have opened so many retail stores over the past 10 years. Meanwhile most chains are closing them.

Seeing that this is the GJ, there may be a lot of No's from this population.

IDK! I do not have a crystal ball, but time will tell.

I am very curious to see what those who dive in and buy this tool think in a few months. I am sure someone will make a Youtube video.
 

Grokew

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For anyone that cares, the jennuwine article raptors are on sale for 25% off ($39.99) right now. But then you'll be putting rocket fuel in a kajillionaires pocket by NOT buying them from from your local mom & pop tool store. Buy a pair. Or discuss all of the pros & cons at your leisure.
I have the raptors. Good stuff. I saw that the HF version goes up to 1 3/8" vs 1 1/4" for the Knipex. What I can't find is the smallest size the HF version can handle. If anyone here gets them, please do a write up.
 
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