Looking at a Trane XR13. Any Input vs other models?

[TangoFoxTrot]

I currently have an American Standard (basically Trane) model that's close to 20 years old. It's started giving me enough problems that I'm thinking it's time to get a new unit. It's been very reliable except for the last 12 months or so.

My philosophy on something like AC units is you're better off taking a hit on the efficiency if it's a "simpler" unit that's less likely to give you problems.

I'd rather pay an additional $20 a month in my electric bill in the summer months with a $6,000 unit than have a $10,000 system break down. I also plan to buy an extended warranty.

Any thoughts on this Trane model vs the others? Is the XR line a worthwhile upgrade over the cheaper, XB "builder" line?

Any tips or help would be appreciated.

 

[purevil115]

The XB line has a micro channel coil and the XR line is the spine fin. I love trane and have installed close to a 1,000 units. I personally have a 16I at my house and I love the thing. I would go the XR route not the XB. The XB micro channel has more chance of clogging and the spine fin is supposed to be more efficent. They are simple units either way. The XB also comes with an external liquid line filter that must be installed the XR is already installed. This translate to less chance the install tech messes it up.

 

[purevil115]

My fault not all xbs are micro channel looks like there is 2 levels of the lower grades. One is a tan which is the spine fin and the other is a black grille type which is the micro channel.

 

[Troutsqueezer]

I could write a book about what went on with my high-end Coleman Eschelon heat pump that I installed in 2009 in anticipation of having something reliable and that would save me money as I went into retirement.

I couldn't have made a bigger mistake.

I'll try to keep this as short as possible.

On top of all the problems that the unit came to have, the installer did not file the paperwork as he should have and I had a very short warranty period as a result. It was supposed to be 10 years parts and labor with the special "deal" they had. It was only two years in reality.

This system cost me close to $10k to install. I ripped it out two weeks ago and took it to the dump after pouring a couple of thousand more over the last 5 years to keep it running.

The last two years it had a very slow Freon leak that took a couple of months to leak down. They tried to find and fix the leak twice but to no avail. Each time they came to refill it the cost was around $450.

The two-stage Copeland scroll pump went out after the first year. That was covered but not the shipping to the warehouse, it still cost me $250 for the shipping.

The fan went out after two years. $650.

The TXV valve went out twice. Around $1k to fix.

There were other problems as well.

Checking the electric bills, we didn't save any noticeable amount of money having two stage cooling and a higher SEER rating.

You are absolutely right about keeping it simple.

Technicians are not usually up to speed on the more sophisticated machines and they will usually guess wrong as to how to fix them.

I looked at the XR13 and that is what I signed up for with the Trane dealer but he did steer me towards a Day & Night heat pump (Carrier) instead for a few thousand less. He also put me into a 2.5 ton system, down from the 3 ton that I didn't need. So far, I am happy with the simplicity and the cooling power of this new unit.

My attempt to stave off electrical costs and repair costs was a complete failure. In the end, I paid out $12k for a failed system and then $6,700 for a simpler replacement system.

I no longer give a **** about being green with high SEER ratings. All I care about is whether or not the house will be cool when I get home.

 

[skamp]

I just got 2 Trane XR16's (2.5 ton) installed. They look like great well built units. They were not that expensive either. I got both systems installed with new coils, furnaces and whole house filters for under 10k installed.

Steve

 

[Mike007]

I could write a book about what went on with my high-end Coleman Eschelon heat pump that I installed in 2009 in anticipation of having something reliable and that would save me money as I went into retirement.

If you could write a book, I could write several encyclopedia sets. I was a Coleman / York dealer. I had multiple failures on every single system I installed from 2006 to 2009. It's to the point I will no longer fix them if they are out of warranty. It just doesn't make sense. I apologize to the customer and recommend replacing everything even remotely associated with Coleman/York. I've never seen a good product turn to absolute garbage in such a short period. I believe York is by far the worst equipment on the market.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I think the savings with high zoot HVAC equipment are incredibly overstated, that's why I lean toward the simpler models with single compressors.

To pay double the price to save something $60 a year in electricity AND have a far more complicated piece of equipment to take care of, it's a poor investment plain and simple. It's like a single tank of gas per year.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I just got 2 Trane XR16's (2.5 ton) installed. They look like great well built units. They were not that expensive either. I got both systems installed with new coils, furnaces and whole house filters for under 10k installed.

Steve

Was that with 2 new air handlers as well? Or was it just the outside condenser units?

 

[skamp]

Was that with 2 new air handlers as well? Or was it just the outside condenser units?

It was everything minus the ducts. New outside units, air handlers with furnace. The previous system used a plenum coil. That all got ripped out and they used a separate plenum to reconnect all the ducts. I did it in January when they were slow so got a good deal.

Steve

 

[purevil115]

Yes I now work and install york and I swear not a single furnace makes it a year before stupid issues come up. People blame the install but I have seen good installs just have all sort of issues. Hell a 3 week old ac just needed a hard start kit installed to get compressor to kick in. I know that install was done correct cause I did it and the start up. No issues at all at start up. I would never own a york myself, trane for the win.

 

[skamp]

Yes I now work and install york and I swear not a single furnace makes it a year before stupid issues come up. People blame the install but I have seen good installs just have all sort of issues.

The units I had replaced with the Trane units were York. Had coil issues and the outside units had several issues. The furnaces only had 1 issue which was a starting cap for the fan.

Steve

 

[Mike007]

The sad thing about the York debacle, York WAS a great product. Without exaggeration, as of right now, 2014 the systems I installed from 1999 to roughly 2007 that were made prior to York being bought by Johnson Controls have been almost entirely trouble free. I'm yet to lose a compressor, I believe only 2 have leaked and I've had a few minor issues. This is out of hundreds of systems.

I have systems out there made after 2006 that I replaced the evap coil 3 times and 1 condenser coil under warranty. And they have developed new leaks. All in a 5 year period. So I refuse to fix them if they aren't under a part warranty.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I have a 1200 series Trane heatpump that was installed in 1995. Other than me changing the filter, the only failure was the condenser fan motor croaked back in January on one of the coldest days of the year. I spent an afternoon replacing it, with my torpedo heater keeping me warm while I worked outside. It has never seen a service man since I bought the place in '97 and I doubt anyone looked at it between its '95 installation and my buying the house in '97. It just runs and runs. Like they say, you cannot stop a Trane.

Charles

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

What is a fair price (labor&parts) for an R22, 3 ton Trane XR13 condensor unit?

I'm keeping the existing air handler and I should have all the R22 I need from the prior unit according to the guy I'm working with.

I'd like to get several quotes, not looking for the lowest bid, but it's been a while since I've had an AC unit installed.

 

[skamp]

What is a fair price (labor&parts) for an R22, 3 ton Trane XR13 condensor unit?

I'm keeping the existing air handler and I should have all the R22 I need from the prior unit according to the guy I'm working with.

I'd like to get several quotes, not looking for the lowest bid, but it's been a while since I've had an AC unit installed.

Not sure if this helps but I got quotes for a 2.5 ton XR16 using my existing air handler for like $3450 each. This was using a Trane coil as well. Price included tax and all parts (new plenum, gas/drain lines, etc . I opted to get a new furnace so it all matched which increased the price by $1200. I would think for an XR13 it would be less even being .5 ton more for the condenser.

Steve

 

[Troutsqueezer]

Funny thing, even as I was writing my earlier post to this thread yesterday, my heat pump went on the blink.
It's only three weeks old.
****.
It was 106 degrees - hottest day of the year so far - four o'clock in the afternoon when the pump starting cycling on and off, making a loud "chink" sound every time.
The wife was miserable all last evening and night.
She let me know about it too.
Technician came out today and I showed him the video I took while it was malfunctioning.
"Pressure switch", he says immediately.
The installers put too much Freon into the system.
The pressure switch was protecting the pump as the pressure was at its peak during the hot part of the day.
He let a pound of Freon escape into the atmosphere.
Sorry, environmentalists.
Deal with it.
Now it works fine again.
Blowing at 40 degrees.
The wife is happy, therefore I'm happy.
Life is good again.

Lesson: Ensure the installers accurately assess the amount of Freon you will need, taking into account the length of the piping in the condenser and the length of pipe in the line set.
They miscalculated mine.
Cretins.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

A question I had regarding a Trane warranty, if you're "only" getting the heat pump and you reuse your existing air handler, does the warranty terms change vs an entirely new system?

What I'm seeing with the literature is :
10-year limited warranty on compressor, 10-year limited warranty on outdoor coil, 10-year limited warranty on internal functional parts.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Funny thing, even as I was writing my earlier post to this thread yesterday, my heat pump went on the blink.
It's only three weeks old.
****.
It was 106 degrees - hottest day of the year so far - four o'clock in the afternoon when the pump starting cycling on and off, making a loud "chink" sound every time.
The wife was miserable all last evening and night.
She let me know about it too.
Technician came out today and I showed him the video I took while it was malfunctioning.
"Pressure switch", he says immediately.
The installers put too much Freon into the system.
The pressure switch was protecting the pump as the pressure was at its peak during the hot part of the day.
He let a pound of Freon escape into the atmosphere.
Sorry, environmentalists.
Deal with it.
Now it works fine again.
Blowing at 40 degrees.
The wife is happy, therefore I'm happy.
Life is good again.

Lesson: Ensure the installers accurately assess the amount of Freon you will need, taking into account the length of the piping in the condenser and the length of pipe in the line set.
They miscalculated mine.
Cretins.

Sounds like the whole company has **** techs... One guy overcharges a brand new system & a second guy vents. Niiiiice. I hate to say it, but it makes me wonder what other important steps weren't done properly...



Tommy

 

[skamp]

A question I had regarding a Trane warranty, if you're "only" getting the heat pump and you reuse your existing air handler, does the warranty terms change vs an entirely new system?

What I'm seeing with the literature is :
10-year limited warranty on compressor, 10-year limited warranty on outdoor coil, 10-year limited warranty on internal functional parts.

If you are getting a new inside coil as well the air handler has no direct impact on the compressor. Even if you were reusing your old coil I doubt it would impact warranty.

Steve

 

[Trey T]

I moved into a new home recently w/ two American Standard (2010 model "Silver" w/ slanted grill) (R-410a) single stage compressor units. So far so good! It starts up and run very quiet.

If you have American Standard currently and lasted 20yrs, why not get another one similar? Finding a good and competence installer is important.

 

[HotwheelsYJ]

FWIW, I had a 2.0 ton Trane XR 15 system put in early March 2013 while it was still cold weather. They replaced indoor handler, outside unit & line set that ran through a chase in the wall to the upstairs bathroom closet.
Grand total was $4000

They also came back out 2 months later free of charge to check out the system @ season change as part of their customer service warranty.

No problems with the unit in 1.5 years except a 13 yr old son that keeps screwing with the programmable T-stat!

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

FWIW, I had a 2.0 ton Trane XR 15 system put in early March 2013 while it was still cold weather. They replaced indoor handler, outside unit & line set that ran through a chase in the wall to the upstairs bathroom closet.
Grand total was $4000

It looks like the quote I'm getting for the Trane XR13 outside condensing unit is around $2,500 with all parts and labor, which sounds fair to me and I'm moving forward with it. Just getting the compressor replaced on my existing unit was $1,500, I think I'd be throwing good money after bad.

I moved into a new home recently w/ two American Standard (2010 model "Silver" w/ slanted grill) (R-410a) single stage compressor units. So far so good! It starts up and run very quiet.

If you have American Standard currently and lasted 20yrs, why not get another one similar? Finding a good and competence installer is important.

Trane is the same as American Standard. The impression I got is the American Standard models are a little more of a stripped down "builder grade" and that Trane has a better warranty , but otherwise I'd be fine with either. I got a quote for the American Standard model from a different installer and it was actually more than for the better Trane model.

 

[Travinsky]

Trane is the same as American Standard.

Yep mine has a stamped sheet that says so.

I bought a XR 17i back in 2007 for $6700 with rebates and it's been pretty good so far. The savings is not as substantial as I thought it would be, it's 7-10% lower elec bills at best compared to my old Ruud 12 SEER hvac. I get it serviced by a non-trane tech every other year, and change filters monthly.
Best of luck on your decision.

 

[kusterer]

Had a company install two XR13's in my house in 2010. Only problems I have had was the condensate pump died about a month after install ( the installers mounted it in a hole in the dirt floor in the crawl space vs a sump) and had a capacitor die about 2 weeks ago. Both were covered by the 10 year warranty. Looking at them they still look brand new inside and out and they work like the day we bought them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

First off let me weigh in on the Trane v/s American Standard debate, there exactly the same units. If you stripped the tags off and laid them out in peices you could never tell the difference between the two... I am a Trane dealer and also own an American standard dealership the equipment is exactly the same. Yes there is a price difference between the two, Trane does a lot of national advertising American Standard doesn't.

I will throw out one more point for the OP to consider though. DO NOT GO R-22 FREON!!!!



Under the terms of the Montreal Protocol, the U.S. has agreed to meet certain obligations relating to the Phase-Out of HCFCs by specific dates.

January 1, 2004:
In accordance with the terms of the Montreal Protocol, the amount of all HCFCs that can be produced nationwide must be reduced by 35% by 2004. In order to achieve this goal, the U.S. ceased production of HCFC-141b, the most ozone-damaging of this class of chemicals, on January 1, 2003. This production ban will greatly reduce nationwide use of HCFCs as a group, and so the 2004 deadline had a minimal effect on R-22 supplies.

January 1, 2010:
After 2010, chemical manufacturers may still produce R-22 to service existing equipment, but not for use in new equipment. Air conditioning and heat pump manufacturers will only be able to use pre-existing supplies of R-22 to produce new air conditioners and heat pumps. These existing supplies would include R-22 recovered from existing equipment and recycled. It is likely that rather than depend on this very tentative supply of R-22 for new equipment, manufactures will instead utilize R-410A in all new units.

January 1, 2020:
Use of existing refrigerant, including refrigerant that has been recovered and recycled, will be allowed beyond 2020 to service existing systems, but chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce R-22 to service existing air conditioners and heat pumps.

So in 5 1/2 years your new R-22 condenser is pretty much non serviceable... we have already seen R-22 prices 5-6X what they were in 2009, and although they have settled out i do expect they will go up again. Also the "dry" R-22 condensers out there are tytpicaly 10-20% more than the equivalent R-410a condenser in wholesale cost.

Ok, now if you have an American Standard / Trane indoor coil or airhandler it can very easily be converted to R-410 by adding an expansin valve kit that they offer for just such an instance.

long story short buy the new condenser in R-410 and have them add the expansion valve. better to throw away a 100 dollar valve when your coil goes bad than to have to replace the condenser again 7 years down the road when your coil goes bad....

scotty

Doesn't the evaporator usually need to be changed out when you go from R-22 to R-410? Don't you have to flush everything out because the two oils are incompatible? I thought the air handler had to be rated for R-410 to make a switch like that because it needs more airflow to work properly.

I've never heard of a "plug and play" switch like that unless the air handler is designated for both. It would seem to be asking for trouble with a 20 year old air handler with the higher pressures.

Regarding the phasing out of R-22, it's a manufactured problem in my opinion and I plan to buy my own tank of R-22. I think some tech really exploit the whole situation, I can easily get a full tank of it for $300, so $10 a pound. Big deal, and there's all sorts of drop ins available if prices get out of hand. The guy I'm working with now is very fair on his R-22 prices, but I've seen some major gouging out there.

Regarding the Trane vs American Standard, I know it's basically the same innards, but there are differences like the Trane I'm getting has some additional sound deadening (important since it's near a bedroom) So it's not exactly the same with just a different tag, it would be like a Ford vs Mercury. The Trane ended up being cheaper, so I thought it was a no brainer.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Best job is to replace everything line set and all... But, you can easily flush the indoor coil and retrofit an expansion valve to them. Factory test pressures are the same on the R-22 equipment and the R-410a.

As far as the two units being the same or not, i'm sorry to tell you they are the same. I sell and handle both, both are made on the same assembly line and often times i will get a "Trane" branded piece of equipment in an "American Standard" package... And to take it a step further if you want to talk about there new air handlers there not even produced by them, they buy them from a 3rd party manufacturer and stick what ever lable on it.

pricing varies from region to region, i can tell you from first hand experaince AC condensers are cheaper in florida than they are in ohio... Trane / American Standard "sells" reagonal territories to wholesale distributers who set there own pricing. I know I am good personal friends with the owner of the wholsaler i buy from.

either way you cant go wrong with either brand. I do believe even with the few issues and changes that have come about since they were bought by Ingersoll Rand it is still the best equipment on the market...

scotty

Well, I'm glad you're the not guy installing it, I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that AC units for R-410 run at higher pressures than R-22. I've never heard of someone in the HVAC business recommending that.


Here is a direct quote from DuPont:


"Important Note: R-410A can only be used in equipment designed for R-410A. R-410A cannot be used to retrofit existing R-22 a/c equipment due to significantly higher operating pressures and much higher cooling capacity as outlined in the chart below."

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_CA/products/tips_using_R410A.html

 

[Mike007]

Well, I'm glad you're the not guy installing it, I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that AC units for R-410 run at higher pressures than R-22. I've never heard of someone in the HVAC business recommending that.


Here is a direct quote from DuPont:


"Important Note: R-410A can only be used in equipment designed for R-410A. R-410A cannot be used to retrofit existing R-22 a/c equipment due to significantly higher operating pressures and much higher cooling capacity as outlined in the chart below."

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_CA/products/tips_using_R410A.html

Dupont is wrong. All the new coils I've seen are marked for 410A and 22.

 

[Mike007]

Dupont is wrong. All the new coils I've seen are marked for 410A and 22.

I should also add, I personally wouldn't reuse a 20 year old coil with 410A. And probably not with 22 either. But that's me.

 

[rpenner54]

Looking to replace our 1969 Electric Singer furnace and 2002 13 seer ac system with a Carrier 92.1% and a 13 seer Carrier A/C system. I have a quote of $4,462 for the whole system. I know this has to be better then the electric system and hope that this carrier system is good too.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Dupont is wrong. All the new coils I've seen are marked for 410A and 22.

The NEW(er) coils will have that marking and are rated for both, but not ones made 20 years ago.

Obviously, the AC manufacturers made some changes to their equipment when transitioning to R-410. It has different properties. Just like the automotive companies made some changes when they changed from R-12 to R-134.

 

[Mike007]

The NEW(er) coils will have that marking and are rated for both, but not ones made 20 years ago.

Obviously, the AC manufacturers made some changes to their equipment when transitioning to R-410. It has different properties. Just like the automotive companies made some changes when they changed from R-12 to R-134.

Coils from 20 years ago are probably more ideal for 410A then the **** they are making today. The copper was thicker and of a higher quality. The industry is getting away from copper coils because they can no longer produce a copper coil that won't leak.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Well I will say I'm glad Im not the guy doing your job also...

I don't need to defend myself or my statements I will leave you with a little insite tho... It is very common industry wide to convert a coil for use with R-410a, we have done several of them without issue useing parts from the manufacturer of the existing coil... And since you've done your homework why are you not replacing your existing indoor coil? Is it a cost savings situation? Because if it is it's a decision you may well come to regret. It's a pretty even split in the Trane / American Standard equipment as to where they typically leak, it's either an indoor coil or an out door coil...

And what is your rational for wanting to stay with a refrigerant that is going the way of the dinosaur? R22 was developed in the 1930's r410a is a much better refrigerant with better properties of heat transfer it's a modern environmentally safe refrigerant.


There are always a million guys out there who will say you can or can't do things on the internet. Real life and experience are very different than reading a web page or forum. You will make the choice you deam necessary for your situation. I deal with people like you all the time, you've read this and that on the internet and now you know more than me. After all I've only got 25 years of experience in the industry and own two companies doing close to a million dollars in gross sales annually...

I wish you well with your choice to stay r22 in my opinion it's the wrong choice but that's just my opinion.

And I will thank you for reminding me why I stay off web forums...

I'm going to go with DuPont on this that actually manufactures the refrigerant and EVERY other HVAC person I've talked to.

The fact that you don't understand the two refrigerants operate at different pressures is troubling to say the least considering you're in the industry.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Coils from 20 years ago are probably more ideal for 410A then the **** they are making today. The copper was thicker and of a higher quality. The industry is getting away from copper coils because they can no longer produce a copper coil that won't leak.

Then why did you say you wouldn't reuse a coil? If it's made better, wouldn't it make more sense to use it than replace with an inferior one?

I should also add, I personally wouldn't reuse a 20 year old coil with 410A. And probably not with 22 either. But that's me.

Whether hypothetically it "works" or not, I think it's asking for trouble to swap a R-22 condensing unit with an R-410, and reuse the old R-22 air handler. I think the best course is to either replace EVERYTHING or swap out the condensing unit and match it to the air handler. I think swapping just the condensing unit makes sense in my case.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Your rediculous... I've never said they are the same pressures... When you hold half the certifications and have a tenth of the real world experience I have then come tell me how to do my job...

You are a complete waste of my time.. Your what's called an askhole, someone who asks advise but still goes with there own incorrect plan... Ride on keyboard commando...

You've offered bad advice to swap with R-410 leaving the old R-22 equipment on and just swapping the expansion valve.

long story short buy the new condenser in R-410 and have them add the expansion valve. better to throw away a 100 dollar valve when your coil goes bad than to have to replace the condenser again 7 years down the road when your coil goes bad....

scotty

Not one HVAC person I've talked to thinks this is a good idea, and all the literature out there states it's a bad idea because the equipment doesn't match. Most would flat say "No" if you asked them to do it this way.

Whether it can "work" or not, it's just a dumb risk on many levels just to save a few bucks on R-410 refrigerant.

If that's the way you do things, carry on, but it's not how I'm going to do it.

 

[jacob_coulter]

It's definitely not standard practice to have the outside compressor unit not match the inside evaporator with respect to 410 and R22. In fact, it's a really bad idea.

It could potentially give you many different types of problems because of the incompatibility of the two refrigerants' oils (POE vs mineral oil). If there's any residue left in the evaporator or line sets, it could ruin the system. You'd probably want to pull the evaporator out to make sure it was properly flushed.

Also, the manufacturers made all sorts of changes when they went over to 410, they didn't just put a different gas in it. It works differently and the two parts of the system need to match. All sorts of changes, some major, some subtle.

Have you ever been in a car that was originally set up for R-12 and it was converted to R-134 with no other changes? It works but it usually has mediocre performance, that's why many people recommend doing things like upgrading the condenser to make up for it.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Completely untrue... It is an industry wide common practice to convert an existing r22 coil to r410... There are trade offs made when doing this yes, efficiency is the largest...

If you have a 20 year old Trane air handler in your home it's most likely a TWE030 which has a FCCV used for refrigerant metering. Trane sells a retrofit expansion valve kit that connects on in place of the FCCV... If you think this is not normal practice why would they make and sell the kit...

I agree that the reuse of a 20 year old coil is not the best choice,but you apparently are financially unable to replace it all at this point in time. So my advise is one that gives you better opportunity in the future to replace your air handler without replacing your condenser again, or being stuck with an extremely expensive refrigerant...

It's an option, not a directive... I gave you free advise to stay away from r22. Great you can get your hands on a jug of it. Do you have a EPA approved Certification? If not it's illegal for you to purchase it. And to that thought what makes you think r22 prices won't go through the roof a few years from now? When r12 went away 1992 I was paying less than 50 bucks a jug, the last jug we purchased was in 1997 I paid over a thousand dollars for it...

Will an R22 condenser get you back up and running, absolutely!

Will the freon be available to service your equipment in the future, absolutely!

As I said before do as you wish, your month of internet research certainly gives you more knowledge and experience than my 25 years in the field...

I'll have to just take my chances

 

[jacob_coulter]

Completely untrue... It is an industry wide common practice to convert an existing r22 coil to r410... There are trade offs made when doing this yes, efficiency is the largest...

If you have a 20 year old Trane air handler in your home it's most likely a TWE030 which has a FCCV used for refrigerant metering. Trane sells a retrofit expansion valve kit that connects on in place of the FCCV... If you think this is not normal practice why would they make and sell the kit...

I agree that the reuse of a 20 year old coil is not the best choice,but you apparently are financially unable to replace it all at this point in time. So my advise is one that gives you better opportunity in the future to replace your air handler without replacing your condenser again, or being stuck with an extremely expensive refrigerant...

It's an option, not a directive... I gave you free advise to stay away from r22. Great you can get your hands on a jug of it. Do you have a EPA approved Certification? If not it's illegal for you to purchase it. And to that thought what makes you think r22 prices won't go through the roof a few years from now? When r12 went away 1992 I was paying less than 50 bucks a jug, the last jug we purchased was in 1997 I paid over a thousand dollars for it...

Will an R22 condenser get you back up and running, absolutely!

Will the freon be available to service your equipment in the future, absolutely!

As I said before do as you wish, your month of internet research certainly gives you more knowledge and experience than my 25 years in the field...

They also make and sell "sealer in a can", does that mean it's a good idea?

You really think it's worthwhile to go to all the extra trouble and expense converting an R22 unit over to 410 and have a "mutt" of a system all to save what, $60 bucks on refrigerant?

The "kit" alone is more than that, to say nothing of all the extra flushing, possible disassembly of the evaporator, possibly replacing the linesets, etc. Then you have the risk that you didn't get 100% of the old out. For what you admit will have major drawbacks to the efficiency because it wasn't made for 410.

Again, all to save $60 on cheaper 410 if it ever needs to be completely refilled? And you recommend this action to your customers?

R12 has been illegal for nearly 20 years, yet I can still easily get a hold of it for an affordable price.

R22 isn't officially going to be phased out until 2020, and already there are numerous drop in replacements, something R12 never really had.

Either pull the whole thing out and go 410 or change out the condensing unit and stick with R22.

 

[brewchief]

If you use a new 410a condenser with an old coil will it be covered under warranty? Some manufacturers now require a AHRI number when registering for extended warranty, I would be shocked if you can get an AHRI match up with a 20 year old air handler.

 

[jacob_coulter]

And lastly r12 isn't illegal for anyone with a certification to buy or use, only for those who do not. And yes there are drop on replacements available but most dealers will stick to what is most common, it doesn't make business sense to stock refrigerants I might use on only 1 or 2 jobs a year... Yes in some of our very large commercial plants we have done conversions but were talking hundreds of pounds of refrigerant not 6-8...

Obviously I was talking about the manufacturing of R12, that's why I said I can still easily get a hold of it despite it being illegal to both manufacture and import in the US for close to 20 years.

R22 will still be able to legally manufacture until 2020, and it has the added advantage of legal substitutes being available that can drop in.

I could even see 410 being made in illegal in the near future, they're already trying to get rid of R-134 which was supposed to be the safe alternative. To try and make guesses about future prices of refrigerant due to regulations is a losing game.

Believe me, if you're in the AC business, you're going to be stocking R22 or some drop in substitute for the next several decades. Anyone who doesn't will starve, the overwhelming majority of AC units will still be running on R22 for a long time.

The additional $8 a lb or so for R22 over 410 is a small price to pay to have a matched system.

You're really creating a whole lot of drama and potential headaches for a very small issue.

 

[Mike007]

Then why did you say you wouldn't reuse a coil? If it's made better, wouldn't it make more sense to use it than replace with an inferior one?

Whether hypothetically it "works" or not, I think it's asking for trouble to swap a R-22 condensing unit with an R-410, and reuse the old R-22 air handler. I think the best course is to either replace EVERYTHING or swap out the condensing unit and match it to the air handler. I think swapping just the condensing unit makes sense in my case.

What I do and what I see done in the field are 2 completely different things. The point I was making is, your belief that an old coil can't be converted to 410A and work properly is wrong. I've seen it done many times. That doesn't mean I'm going to do it and I also wouldn't put a new R22 condenser on a 20 year old evap coil either.