Looking at a Trane XR13. Any Input vs other models?

[TangoFoxTrot]

What I do and what I see done in the field are 2 completely different things. The point I was making is, your belief that an old coil can't be converted to 410A and work properly is wrong. I've seen it done many times. That doesn't mean I'm going to do it and I also wouldn't put a new R22 condenser on a 20 year old evap coil either.

I never said it couldn't be done, I said it wasn't a good idea. It sounds like you agree.

 

[Mike007]

I never said it couldn't be done, I said it wasn't a good idea.

I guess I misunderstood this post:

Here is a direct quote from DuPont:


"Important Note: R-410A can only be used in equipment designed for R-410A. R-410A cannot be used to retrofit existing R-22 a/c equipment due to significantly higher operating pressures and much higher cooling capacity as outlined in the chart below."

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_CA/products/tips_using_R410A.html

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I guess I misunderstood this post:

I guess you did, I didn't say that, DuPont did. I even cited it.

Reading is fundamental.

Here is a direct quote from DuPont:


"Important Note: R-410A can only be used in equipment designed for R-410A. R-410A cannot be used to retrofit existing R-22 a/c equipment due to significantly higher operating pressures and much higher cooling capacity as outlined in the chart below."

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_CA/products/tips_using_R410A.html

Take it up with DuPont if you have a problem with their guidelines.

Why someone wants to argue about the WRONG way to do something is beyond me.

 

[Mike007]

I guess you did, I didn't say that, DuPont did. I even cited it. Reading is fundamental. Take it up with DuPont if you have a problem with their guidelines. Why someone wants to argue about the WRONG way to do something is beyond me.

So you posted it because you don't agree with it? Yeah sure.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I guess I misunderstood this post:

So you posted it because you don't agree with it? Yeah sure.

I agree that it's a bad idea and not designed to be retrofitted, you said yourself you won't do the conversion either.

So what exactly are you arguing? That it "can't" be done?

 

[Mike007]

I agree that it's a bad idea and not designed to be retrofitted, you said yourself you won't do the conversion either.

So what exactly are you arguing? That it "can't" be done?

I'm not arguing anything. You cited something that clearly indicates it can't be done, so I pointed out I've seen it done many times. Then you indicated that even though you cited it, you don't agree with what it says.

 

[Notgrownup]

I was goona get a trane 12 years ago with a variable speed fans and such, it was a xr12 I think, I went with Goodman GMC, save like $2000, still running ok, I will replace it with either the goodman or trane...I was told Goodman makes a lot of other branded equipment.
Sorry , I don't know **** about the 410 r22 etc....I just know my 3 ton unit cools my *** in eastern NC and my light bill runs pretty decent... Warms my *** in the winter also....

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I'm not arguing anything. You cited something that clearly indicates it can't be done, so I pointed out I've seen it done many times. Then you indicated that even though you cited it, you don't agree with what it says.

I cited a link from one of the largest refrigerant manufacturer that disagreed when someone said it was a good idea to use the existing R22 air handler.

For some strange reason you now want to argue with DuPont about it even though you also agree it's not a good idea.

A manufacturer recommending against something doesn't mean it can't be done, I would think an adult can understand the distinction.

 

[jacob_coulter]

There's some HVAC "professionals" out there that aren't qualified to fill an ice chest. Consumers need to be careful and do their homework. There's a lot of hacks and fraudsters in the AC business.

Regarding this discussion, why does someone want to push the idea that reusing a decades-old R22 air handler with a 410 compressor and refrigerant is a good fix when they are admitting they would never do it? Why dispense the bad advice?

Because a hack can make something work doesn't mean it's done the right way. I can fill an AC unit with propane from my BBQ grill and make cold air come out, it doesn't mean it's the right way to do it.

A warranty can also be made invalid if the units aren't matched because the AC companies know it can cause so many issues.

To the OP, if you've decided to reuse the older R22 air handler, get a R22 condensing unit and stick with matching units, far fewer issues. It has a proven track record.

You got better advice from installers than you found here.

 

[jacob_coulter]

And what do you suggest to him in 2 years when his air handlers coil developes a leak???

He's stated that he has a 20 year old Trane air handler, that is most likely going to be a TWE model. Replacement coils are not available for these units... Yes I can put in a new air handler and change the expansion valve in it out for a R22 valve but is that really any better than converting his existing coil to R410???

The rationall is that the new condenser is going to out last the existing air handler...

Can we agree on that???

So my point is that at the time of failure of the coil what is the next step? Do we back convert a piece of equipment or do we move ahead with new and current technology??? Like it or not R22 is going away, those who choose to hold on to it for dear life are the fools, R410a is a much better refrigerant with better heat transfer properties and lets not forget what were doing here is just moving heat...

I would much rather throw away the expense of an expansion valve than a condenser... Remember we're only talking about 5 1/2 years left of R22 production...

I'll agree there are a lot of hacks in this industry, almost as many as there are in the auto repair or used car sales industries but there are a lot of talented professionals out there who try to look out for there customers best interests, not just for today but down the road as well...

As far as your fear of unit damage to a new condenser on a converted coil. If a coil and line set is properly flushed and oils removed there is no chance of damage to the new unit. A good tech is able to properly charge the system to prevent the possibilities of the two things that damage compressors, running liquid freon back to the compressor or extream compressor discharge temperatures... It's not rocket science that can only be done in a lab...

Yes capacity and efficency will be effected but he's not going to get 13 SEER efficency out of a coil originally matched to a 10SEER condenser either...

I'm done in this thread...

If you think the air handler coil is likely to develop a leak in the near future, why on Earth would you want to run a refrigerant that has nearly 60% higher pressure?

The change over to 410 has far more to do with appeasing the environmental lobby than it does better performance, I don't see it as a big positive step. You're talking about a rounding error on someone's utility bill when comparing an identical R22 system with a 410.

They wouldn't need a law to phase out R22 if 410 was so much better. But I don't think it's going to be a major problem for consumers to get R22 or a suitable substitute in the future, the drop in replacements have basically put in a ceiling on the prices. The ridiculous markup that some techs want to put on R22 under the disguise of rarity will be the bigger issue. 410 also has the big disadvantage that because it's a blend, you can't simply add more, you have to start from scratch. So if you're down a pound of R22 and down a pound of 410, I would wager to properly fill the 410, it's going to cost more than the R22.

I just think it's bad advice on almost every angle and it's puzzling that techs that know it's not a good idea keep insisting that because it can be made to work, it's better than using what we know has a proven track record all to save a pretty menial amount of money on refrigerant.

 

[Mike007]

I cited a link from one of the largest refrigerant manufacturer that disagreed when someone said it was a good idea to use the existing R22 air handler.

For some strange reason you now want to argue with DuPont about it even though you also agree it's not a good idea.

A manufacturer recommending against something doesn't mean it can't be done, I would think an adult can understand the distinction.

Once again, we are not arguing. You made a claim and cited Dupont to back it. You were told you were wrong and you now say you don't agree with what you cited. So we actually agree.

And FYI, when R410A came out it was also said you couldn't reuse existing R22 linesets.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Once again, we are not arguing. You made a claim and cited Dupont to back it. You were told you were wrong and you now say you don't agree with what you cited. So we actually agree.

And FYI, when R410A came out it was also said you couldn't reuse existing R22 linesets.

For some line sets, they do need to be replaced because they aren't large enough to accomodate the higher pressures that R410 requires. Also, if the lines are not brazed but silver soldered, the higher pressures of 410 can cause problems.

I agree with what was cited by DuPont, you're just moving the goal post with some ridiculous assertion that DuPont said it's impossible to put 410 in an R22 system. It's like arguing with a 2 year old.

They said "cannot be used" because it won't give the user the performance it was designed for. I can ignore my owners manual and put the wrong weight of motor oil in my car and still get the engine to run, it doesn't mean the manufacturer is "wrong" or that it's impossible to do.

It's clear you're comfortable with ignoring the manufacturers recommendation, I'm glad I'm not one of your customers.

 

[jacob_coulter]

This statement alone is enough to show you have no idea what your talking about... R410a is added just as easily as R22, it just has to be added as liquid.

.

Because R-410 has two different gasses (R-32 and R-125) fractionation can occur because different gasses evaporate differently if there is a leak.

This is usually ignored in the field, but it is a blend.

 

[Mike007]

For some line sets, they do need to be replaced because they aren't large enough to accomodate the higher pressures that R410 requires.

Lol. Larger line sets accommodate higher pressures? Better revisit Google on that one.

Also, if the lines are not brazed but silver soldered, the higher pressures of 410 can cause problems.

Do you even know what this "higher pressure" is? Do you know how this "Higher pressure" compares to the pressure rating of common ACR tubing?

I agree with what was cited by DuPont, you're just moving the goal post with some ridiculous assertion that DuPont said it's impossible to put 410 in an R22 system. It's like arguing with a 2 year old.

They said "cannot be used" because it won't give the user the performance it was designed for. I can ignore my owners manual and put the wrong weight of motor oil in my car and still get the engine to run, it doesn't mean the manufacturer is "wrong" or that it's impossible to do.

Since you apparently lack the maturity to just admit you were wrong, I'll just put it this way so you don't have to admit your ignorance on the subject. You cited something to back up your position, but you sort of weren't really in agreement with what you post so your sort of not wrong.


It's clear you're comfortable with ignoring the manufacturers recommendation, I'm glad I'm not one of your customers.

We don't have to worry about that happening. Since I don't ignore manufacturers recommendations, I would never install a new R22 condenser on a 20+ year old coil as you want done. You are aware Trane would never endorse your cost cutting plan?

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

We don't have to worry about that happening. Since I don't ignore manufacturers recommendations, I would never install a new R22 condenser on a 20+ year old coil as you want done. You are aware Trane would never endorse your cost cutting plan?

What cost cutting plan are you talking about? Replacing an outside condenser and reusing the air handler is a repair that's made all the time.

And yes, line sets many times have to be replaced because of 410, it's scary that you don't know that information.

 

[jacob_coulter]

Regarding line sets, sometimes the copper fittings need to be bigger or thicker. And it also sometimes needs to be enlarged for the greater volume.

They do also indeed have to be brazed and not soldered. That can add substantially to the cost.

I personally would want all new line sets if I was converting, I think it's worth the cost to make sure the system is totally clean and leak free.

 

[Mike007]

What cost cutting plan are you talking about? Replacing an outside condenser and reusing the air handler is a repair that's made all the time.

That means it's ok then I suppose since Google says so. Despite the fact that you will not find a single manufacturer out their that doesn't recommend installing A/C systems as a matched set. And I'll tell you why it is commonly done, it's quick easy money for the contractor compared to doing it correctly and installing matched equipment. In and out in a few hours.

And yes, line sets many times have to be replaced because of 410, it's scary that you don't know that information.

Lol. So linesets have always been made from type L copper. Are their special linesets for 410A?

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Lol. So linesets have always been made from type L copper. Are their special linesets for 410A?

When did I say they weren't made out of copper? Is this another argument you're having with yourself?

There are times when larger linesets have to be used for R-410 and there are times when they have to be replaced if they are soldered and not brazed because of the increased pressure.

Are you saying this info is incorrect?

Regarding replacing the outside condensing unit, the manufacturer still offers a 5 year warranty when the condensing unit is replaced and not the air handler, so they obviously don't think it's an incorrect repair. I'm getting a 5 year warranty directly from Trane.

This is from the Trane dealer:
"A Dry Ship R22 model is preferred to a repair of your existing air conditioner or heat pump

A Dry Ship R22 air conditioner or heat pump offers increased efficiency levels over a compressor change-out on an older existing system.

Dry ship R22 units offer a 5 year registered limited warranty on compressor, coil and parts plus a known reliability."


You seem to really be lost about all of this info yet this is supposed to be your profession. Good luck.

 

[nochina1966]

R-410 A freon requires a new line set when feasible, in a high rise condo, that's not possible. The line set can be thoroughly flushed out, it's not so much the gas as the oil entrained in the walls and fittings of the copper. I agree with previous comments about a leak, since it's a blend, one gas escapes faster than the other. I've personally never had so many issues with warranties than I've had in the last 5 years, thinner wall recycled copper, greater pressure. Trane tried to blame it on Formic acid, but it's probably always been around. Thin the copper walls and you have greater heat transfer ability... And thus a higher seer rating for less material mfg cost. Carrier have been using Puron for the longest time, why now all the problems with other mfrs being mandated to use it ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mike007]

When did I say they weren't made out of copper?

Are you having a senior moment?

For some line sets, they do need to be replaced because they aren't large enough to accomodate the higher pressures that R410 requires.

Did you not post the above? Linesets always been L copper and still are.

 

[purevil115]

soooo the answer to the question is yes get the xr-13 lol.

 

[brewchief]

Look up harris stay brite #8 if you think brazing is the only way to join copper and have it hold up to r 410a pressures, we braze at my work but I know of plenty of guys who use stay brite #8 with great success.

Linesets, fittings etc are and have been the same no matter what refrigerant is used, refrigeration fittings are typically long sweep 90s and thicker then plumbing fittings but a refrigeration fitting is a refrigeration fitting, nothing changed with them with the swap to r 410a. Most of them we can get now come from overseas so I highly doubt they are better quality then what was available 20 years ago.

In some cases a size change in the lineset may be needed, more due to manufacturers looking for every bit of efficiency then a change in refrigerant, we saw this in 3 ton units a few years back with a bump from 3/4" to 7/8" suction lines, fast forward and most of those are once again 3/4", go figure.

I went to a class on a new 25 seer inverter condenser and the lineset requirements for that are very interesting in order to maintain proper oil return, verticals different size then horizontals among other things.

We have been installing r410a units for around 15 years now, we replace linesets when we can and flush the ones we can't. We will not use a 410a condenser with a coil that was used on a r-22 system unless the coil is AHRI match with the condenser and we feel we can properly flush all the oil out, most of the time a new coil is a better way to go by the time you add in the cost of the flush kit and the time needed to do it.

I've installed a handful of the dry ship units, we will only use these if we can get an AHRI match up, typically we would use one if a r-22 condenser was damaged due to tree falling on it or the coil was rotted out from dog piss.

Yes r-410a is a blend, yes it should always be charged as liquid and in theory the entire charge should be pulled and replaced in the event of a leak, in practice I've never even heard a rumor about somebody having a problem due to topping off a r-410a system, if anybody has any real world problems that are due to topping off a system and nothing else I'd like to see them.

 

[jacob_coulter]

Mike007

You've just really been giving out some terrible advice and misinformation.

So let me get this straight, you think someone replacing their outside condensing unit with a new, matching R22 unit is an incredibly bad decision (even though the manufacturer offers a factory warranty) but on the other hand, you think converting the entire system to 410 and reusing the original decades old R22 air handler is a good idea (despite manufacturers saying not to do this unless the evaporator is rated forR-410) and you also maintain that line sets never need to be changed when converting over to 410 (despite the fact that the higher pressures can cause issues with ones that are not brazed)

Also, line sets for older R22 equipment are ALWAYS large enough (despite the fact that higher SEER equipment can often times mean you need a larger suction line)

Also, the refrigerant manufacturers that advise against using older R22 equipment that's not rated for R-410 equipment with their product are just "lying."

I've just never seen so much misinformation from a so called professional, it seems more like you're trolling and being antagonistic just to be caustic.

I've seen zero helpful advice regarding the original question at hand.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

Look up harris stay brite #8 if you think brazing is the only way to join copper and have it hold up to r 410a pressures, we braze at my work but I know of plenty of guys who use stay brite #8 with great success.

Linesets, fittings etc are and have been the same no matter what refrigerant is used, refrigeration fittings are typically long sweep 90s and thicker then plumbing fittings but a refrigeration fitting is a refrigeration fitting, nothing changed with them with the swap to r 410a. Most of them we can get now come from overseas so I highly doubt they are better quality then what was available 20 years ago.

In some cases a size change in the lineset may be needed, more due to manufacturers looking for every bit of efficiency then a change in refrigerant, we saw this in 3 ton units a few years back with a bump from 3/4" to 7/8" suction lines, fast forward and most of those are once again 3/4", go figure.

I went to a class on a new 25 seer inverter condenser and the lineset requirements for that are very interesting in order to maintain proper oil return, verticals different size then horizontals among other things.

We have been installing r410a units for around 15 years now, we replace linesets when we can and flush the ones we can't. We will not use a 410a condenser with a coil that was used on a r-22 system unless the coil is AHRI match with the condenser and we feel we can properly flush all the oil out, most of the time a new coil is a better way to go by the time you add in the cost of the flush kit and the time needed to do it.

I've installed a handful of the dry ship units, we will only use these if we can get an AHRI match up, typically we would use one if a r-22 condenser was damaged due to tree falling on it or the coil was rotted out from dog piss.

Yes r-410a is a blend, yes it should always be charged as liquid and in theory the entire charge should be pulled and replaced in the event of a leak, in practice I've never even heard a rumor about somebody having a problem due to topping off a r-410a system, if anybody has any real world problems that are due to topping off a system and nothing else I'd like to see them.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate the advice.

So you believe it's a bad idea to convert a system to R-410a using an existing, older R-22 air handler that isn't rate for R-410?

That's how this debate started, my current air handler is not rated for the new refrigerant, it sounds like you think it's a bad idea one should avoid.

Everything I'm seeing, even from the manufacturers, is that a conversion should not be done unless the evaporator coil is rated for both.

 

[Mike007]

Mike007

You've just really been giving out some terrible advice and misinformation.

So let me get this straight, you think someone replacing their outside condensing unit with a new, matching R22 unit

I'll just cut you off right there. You really should learn the proper trade terminology if you want to have these discussions. It is not "Matching". If it was you could provide an ARI number and the manufacturers extended rating for this equipment. I'll save you the trouble of Googling it. It doesn't exist.

is an incredibly bad decision (even though the manufacturer offers a factory warranty) but on the other hand, you think converting the entire system to 410 and reusing the original decades old R22 air handler is a good idea (despite manufacturers saying not to do this unless the evaporator is rated forR-410) and you also maintain that line sets never need to be changed when converting over to 410 (despite the fact that the higher pressures can cause issues with ones that are not brazed)

Also, line sets for older R22 equipment are ALWAYS large enough (despite the fact that higher SEER equipment can often times mean you need a larger suction line)

Also, the refrigerant manufacturers that advise against using older R22 equipment that's not rated for R-410 equipment with their product are just "lying."

Lol. You either have incredibly poor reading comprehension or are just trolling. Quote where I said any of that and I will address it.

I've just never seen so much misinformation from a so called professional, it seems more like you're trolling and being antagonistic just to be caustic.

I've seen zero helpful advice regarding the original question at hand.

That's because you don't have the slightest understanding as to what you are reading.

 

[Mike007]

Thanks for the info, I appreciate the advice.

So you believe it's a bad idea to convert a system to R-410a using an existing, older R-22 air handler that isn't rate for R-410?

That's how this debate started, my current air handler is not rated for the new refrigerant, it sounds like you think it's a bad idea one should avoid.

Everything I'm seeing, even from the manufacturers, is that a conversion should not be done unless the evaporator coil is rated for both.

The debate got started when you called out a professional in an insulting manner for suggesting the 410A option and cited Dumont literature which clearly stated it can't be done. I pointed out I've seen it done many times and you got your ******* all wadded up.

 

[Mike007]

I'll add this too. I know a few people at the manufacture level, I did field tech work for 1 manufacturer and 1 distributer representing another brand. These people always want to see equipment installed as a matched set. Both had a policy of "No warranty for mismatched equipment".

Of coarse in the real world they couldn't enforce it because they sold a lot of equipment to these contractors and the higher ups didn't want to lose the sales over warranty issues caused by mismatches. Manufacturers have been forced into the "Dry A/c unit" business because it is such a huge market. There are too many contractors looking for quick money and too many homeowners looking for a cheap fix for them not to be in the market.

 

[jacob_coulter]

So much misinformation

Dupont is wrong. All the new coils I've seen are marked for 410A and 22.

Since we're talking about an older air handler, it's not rated for both. Read your install manual, the manufacturers are VERY clear that you only use evaporator coils that are rate for R-410a when converting. The refrigerant manufacturers also say not to do it unless it's rated for both.

We don't have to worry about that happening. Since I don't ignore manufacturers recommendations

Apparently you do it all the time

I would never install a new R22 condenser on a 20+ year old coil as you want done. You are aware Trane would never endorse your cost cutting plan?

That means it's ok then I suppose since Google says so. Despite the fact that you will not find a single manufacturer out their that doesn't recommend installing A/C systems as a matched set.

Then why do companies like Trane sell dry units for R22 systems with a warranty? They do in fact endorse it and promote it as a better way to repair than just replacing a compressor. That's like saying a dealership wold never sell you a new transmission, they'd only sell you a new truck. They do both, and they'll happily sell you a new transmission with a warranty.


I'm not going to go on and on with someone who is trolling, I'm just going quote your bad advice from some who's a "professional" do the talking.

Done with this thread, I'm more interested in giving good advice that helps.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

The debate got started when you called out a professional in an insulting manner for suggesting the 410A option and cited Dumont literature which clearly stated it can't be done. I pointed out I've seen it done many times and you got your ******* all wadded up.

I wasn't even replying to you with this conversation, yet you still want to argue?

It looks like your friend got tossed, so apparently I'm not the insulting one.

The R-410a conversion idea was a terrible option and your now looking silly for defending converting an older system to R-410a when the evaporator was not rated for it.

The manufacturer of both the AC equipment and refrigerant say you're not supposed to do it.

And a real professional that was giving solid advice also chimed in

If you use a new 410a condenser with an old coil will it be covered under warranty? Some manufacturers now require a AHRI number when registering for extended warranty, I would be shocked if you can get an AHRI match up with a 20 year old air handler.

We will not use a 410a condenser with a coil that was used on a r-22 system unless the coil is AHRI match

It also would have voided my warranty.

It was bad advice and for some reason you want to defend the practice.

You just keep digging yourself in a deeper hole.

 

[Mike007]

So much misinformation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike007 View Post
Dupont is wrong. All the new coils I've seen are marked for 410A and 22.

This is what I posted, is it false?

Since we're talking about an older air handler, it's not rated for both. Read your install manual, the manufacturers are VERY clear that you only use evaporator coils that are rate for R-410a when converting. The refrigerant manufacturers also say not to do it unless it's rated for both.

I stated I've seen it done many times with older coils and it worked. Is that false?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike007 View Post
We don't have to worry about that happening. Since I don't ignore manufacturers recommendations

Apparently you do it all the time

Please show an example of where I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike007 View Post
I would never install a new R22 condenser on a 20+ year old coil as you want done. You are aware Trane would never endorse your cost cutting plan?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike007 View Post
That means it's ok then I suppose since Google says so. Despite the fact that you will not find a single manufacturer out their that doesn't recommend installing A/C systems as a matched set.

Then why do companies like Trane sell dry units for R22 systems with a warranty? They do in fact endorse it and promote it as a better way to repair than just replacing a compressor. That's like saying a dealership wold never sell you a new transmission, they'd only sell you a new truck. They do both, and they'll happily sell you a new transmission with a warranty.

I answered this question in my previous post. Apparently your reading comprehension hasn't improved since your last post.

I'm not going to go on and on with someone who is trolling, I'm just going quote your bad advice from some who's a "professional" do the talking.

Done with this thread, I'm more interested in giving good advice that helps.

It's better you bow out. You'll only become more confused.