Looking for Feedback on Garaeg Plan

[Craig Balzer]

Hey Guys

I am looking for some insightful comments on my plans. This was supposed to have already started – but . . . well, . . . ah . . . you ALL know how THAT goes. Now the issues are that construction materials and concrete are not available. Everything is either heading to the hurricane areas of destruction or to China or wherever. You can get concrete but you’re gonna PAY for it.

In any event, these delays simply give me just that much more time for planning. I am not a CAD guy or architect, but I am pretty comfortable with PowerPoint, so . . .

I have attached three slides:
EDIT: for some reason the slides posted in a jumbled order, but I think you all will be able to figure it out
The first gives the overall lay-out of the building. My wife is into all sorts of animals so that may help to explain the “animal” section in the center of the out-building ( we have 3 horses and 5 dogs).
The second slide shows the details of the floor plan (it may not be exactly to scale but these sketches come pretty darn close) for the hobby shop/garage.
And the third slide shows the electrical and lighting plan.
Hope you can read the notes and make out the symbols.

There are no sacred cows and I have very thick skin. Feel free to make any comments – PRO comments are nice but the CON comments are generally more helpful. Some of the areas I’m concerned about are:
..... the location of the hydraulic press,
..... spacing of the lift area with regard to the walls and flat work area,
..... the size of the vehicle doors – too small? and the spacing of them in the walls,
..... a place for the computer/phone without losing valuable workbench area,
..... the proper sequencing/placement of the various appliances (and I don’t mean the refrig),
..... the utility of a small storage platform about the bathroom,
..... and any other things you pros spot.

TIA

Craig

 

[...dave]

A few thoughts...
What is the big red & silver thing at the top-center? i'm guessing sandblast cabinet?
A ladder will make it difficult to put anything into storage. Maybe drop-stairs, and continue the storage area over your workbench?
The area around the Buick seems pretty tight- do you plan to just use that as a parking spot, and do all of your work on the lift? If not, you may want to space things out a bit more, maybe swap dimensions on the john.
Your workbenches are taking up a ton of space- do you anticipate needing that much for projects?
Do you plan any engine assembly? If so, there doesn't seem to be a good place to keep one on a stand.
i assume there will be cabinets above and under the workbench. Do you have any other places outside the shop to keep stuff? For a shop that size i would have more cabinet/shelf space, but you may not be as bad of a packrat as i am.
i'd probably add a vise to the welding table. However, to me, your "dirty work" room seems like it would be kind of crowded. It might be hard to maneuver larger pieces in the room.
The doors seem fine, as does the location of the press. You could invest in a flat-panel LCD, mount a sliding keyboard tray under the workbench, and toss a minitower in a cabinet and use very little space for the PC (just punch a few holes in the sides and top of the cab for airflow). If you put in a phone it just makes it easier for people to bug you when you're trying to work. Just use the phone in the animal office when it's time to order pizza.
i'd probably want a big roller, plus a smaller rolling project center, or rolling table or two with a flat top. Really comes in handy.
Where's your compressor? Since you're building from scratch i'd run 220 for it and the welder, even if you don't have them yet.

i know this is mostly negative stuff, but on the whole it seems very well thought-out (even down to the Jag being the car on the lift! Ha!), with very good use of space and lighting.

Good luck!

...dave

 

[GearHead_1]

I agree on the bench area comment. I don't know when I would need a bench 42" deep.

 

[keperkey]

Why not go ahead an concrete the lawn equipment storage room floor. It would be easier to do it now than later and you may want the additional finished space.

What program did you use to draw this?

 

[Craig Balzer]

Dave

Thanks very much for the time you took to dissect my plans.

You said "What is the big red & silver thing at the top-center? I’m guessing sandblast cabinet?"
A: Yup -- I didn't label it but you got it

You said "A ladder will make it difficult to put anything into storage. Maybe drop-stairs, and continue the storage area over your workbench?"
Reply: Yeah -- a ladder will be pretty dicey. I never thought about continuing the storage over the bench. The scales have fallen from eyes. Good catch.

You said "The area around the Buick seems pretty tight- do you plan to just use that as a parking spot, and do all of your work on the lift? If not, you may want to space things out a bit more, maybe swap dimensions on the john. Your workbenches are taking up a ton of space- do you anticipate needing that much for projects?" and "I assume there will be cabinets above and under the workbench. Do you have any other places outside the shop to keep stuff? For a shop that size I would have more cabinet/shelf space, but you may not be as bad of a packrat as I am.
A: I have always felt too much bench top was just enough. BUT -- you make excellent points. I'll try another version that includes smaller workbenches and that spins the john 90*. With that freed up space, I’ll add some shelves and storage. Great comments.

You said "I’d probably add a vise to the welding table. However, to me, your "dirty work" room seems like it would be kind of crowded. It might be hard to maneuver larger pieces in the room."
A: Great catch on the second vise in the dirty area, never considered it . . . Yeah -- the dirty area seems a bit tight to me, too. I'm hoping the grinder/buffer stands take less room than the diagram would seem to indicate. That is another area I need to look more carefully at.

You said "I’d probably want a big roller, plus a smaller rolling project center, or rolling table or two with a flat top. Really comes in handy."
A: I played with a mobile bench on previous designs and tried hard to fit one into this space. Maybe when I shrink the benches to a more manageable size, I'll free up enough space for a mobile bench, as well. I agree that a mobile or roller bench provides an incredible amount of freedom and flexibility to the whole shop floor.

You said "Where's your compressor? Since you're building from scratch I’d run 220 for it and the welder, even if you don't have them yet."
A: I plan to install the compressor outside the walls of the shop -- on the diagram it would be in the upper right corner -- and plumbed through the wall. Easy access from outside for maintenance and repairs and provides a degree of separation from the noise. An dI have planned 220 into the electrical and lighting slide. It's a pretty busy diagram and I'm not surprised you may have missed it

And finally: "I know this is mostly negative stuff"
A: but that's what I asked for.

Great comments about the computer, doors, hydraulic press and the phone

Dave -- thanx a million for the look. Great perspectives. I swill take many of your comments to heart and clean up the floor plan.

Craig

.

 

[Craig Balzer]

GearHead 1 -- see my comments above responding to Dave. 42" is probably too deep. Next version will be shallower

keperkey -- not a program. Just used PowerPoint. Been using it extensively since 1995.
I'm thinking that the decision about concreting the entire 78' of pad will be driven by two factors:
(1) the cost of concrete when this plan turns to reality and
(2) SWMBO

Craig

 

[...dave]

Craig- glad you found the comments helpful. i'm not much good at thinking of plans, but boy can i poke holes in them! This also plays into another strength, which is spending other people's money!

Not sure what height you're looking at making your workbench, or whether you're buying or building, but my inclination would be to build high enough to fit toolchests underneath, then you could use the end of the L to store a rolling table. Might need to use stools instead of chairs, but it would be easier to work on stuff while standing. Just a theory i'm going to try out if i ever get my shop...

...dave

 

[SprintCC]

Ok, have a few comments/observations (this is a great exercise, I'm planning my garage-mahl too)

People have commented on the workbench depth, let me drive reality home (from working in a computer lab) from the inner corner of the "L" to the point you have almost 5 FEET of space. You will not be able to reach stuff, stuff will fall behind and be a bi$^%#$^ch to reach. What are those black things sticking out from the bench???

I don't like the location of the toolbox. Very central, true, but literally too central. Think traffic flow. Anywhere from the South your going to have to dodge "The Box". It will get annoying.

My solution is for both above. I can't do powerpoint, so I will describe as best I can. Starting at the bathroom going North (I agree with the other, rotate the bathroom). 2-3 feet open space (shelving) 12-13 foot long (or so) by 2.5 feet (maybe 3) workbench (that is unbelieveably huge, I like it) But make it a short "L". Make the "L" 3 feet long (North to South) and 2 feet wide ( total depth at this point 5 feet max). Next, going East along the wall a mobile tool cart, next going East is your toolbox.

This will give you more room infront of your GS to pull it in farther if need be. Better traffic flow, and if you keep the vise in the same relative location you have room for big stuff and more than 180 degree access. The tools aren't so central anymore, but that is what the tool cart is for, just make sure the floor is level or the wheels are locked.... run-away toolcart's a bad thing!

Unlike others the Press causes me some concern. I don't have one but just a thought Not sure what your going to be pressing, but you have very little clearance in the back. Will you need any?

Do you need a double sink? I'd save the space and go for a single.

Blast Cabinet Vacuum? Or is that the square thing to the left?

The Welding area is tight, no big deal if you don't mind, but what are you going to be storing on your shelves? Nothing flamable I hope. Also where is the ventalation for this area? Fire Extinguisher?

You also have almost no room between the blast cabinet and the shelves.

As for the ladder, I wouldn't want to haul anything up a ladder. I have a friend who's shop might offer a solution, if you have a big storage areas uptop. He didn't want to carry stuff up to his storage area. When the shop was being built they banded together 3 trusses. Once it was built he attached a Pickup Truck winch to the to and uses the winch to haul parts up (I'm stealing this idea). Just a thought.

Also where are your Fire Extinguishers going to be? I've always been told 2 things
1) Never be more than 5 seconds sprint to a Fire extinguisher (Image having to go around "The Box" or out of the welding area to get to one).
2) NEVER have to go farther into the shop to get an extinguisher, alway move towards the exit.

Ok, Lighting. Spotlights under the car don't turn me on. I have a friend who build a small 18 inch high stand that held a florecent light facing upwards. True less protection for the bulb and a wire to trip over, but I think with 2 of these you'll have good diffusion and save money upfront and in energy used..

Also you have 1 light directly over the cab of the Jag (sweet car BTW). When the car is elevated this light is worthless except for mood ambient light. The light to the south over the trunk is better, but imagine this (assuming you can have the door up and the car up at the same time), it's a warm night, you have the door up and the car up. Your working on the passenger rear suspension. That wheel-well will be dark. I'd rotate the light over the cab to just infont of the Press (running North-South) , the one over the trunk I'd also run N-S , but paralelling the Sky-light (I'm assuming thats what the 2 big boxes are). Lighting symetry is nice, but not always the best way.

My 0.02¢

When I subimt my shop plan in a few months feel free to lampoon me!

Chris
Blue Bell Pa

 

[imported_banzaitoyota]

What are you planning on welding?

That welding table location limits the size of components you can weld.

Make the table PORTABLE with locking wheels or Jack bolts.

I also see no provision made for exhausting welding fumes from the area.

 

[Craig Balzer]

Chris of Blue Bell Pa (what a great name for a city / town / village)

You, sir, have a discerning eye.

You said: “People have commented on the workbench depth, let me drive reality home (from working in a computer lab) from the inner corner of the "L" to the point you have almost 5 FEET of space. You will not be able to reach stuff, stuff will fall behind and be a bi$^%#$^ch to reach. What are those black things sticking out from the bench???”
Reply: Wow – you’re right. If I could remember the formula for calculating the base of an isosceles triangle (I think it involves multiplying by the square root of 2), I could post the exact dimension (I’m thinking about 4.8’ or – as you so elegantly stated – almost 5 f@(&ing feet). OK – I give. The benches are too deep. 42” is way more than anyone can use. They gotta go on a diet.
Oh, and the black things sticking out of the bench are chairs or stools viewed from above – see the way I’m waving my hands?

You said: “Do you need a double sink? I'd save the space and go for a single.”
Answer: Not sure. I checked a few web sites and a double tub sink is only about 2’ x 3’ overall (about the same dimension as a decent sized parts washer). Going to a single tub would only gain me 12 maybe 18 inches.

You commented: “Blast Cabinet Vacuum? Or is that the square thing to the left?”
Answer: I didn’t draw in the vacuum cylinder for the blast cabinet (the square thing to the left of the blast cabinet is an oven – for powder coating).
.....I am really of two minds on the whole blast cabinet thing. No doubt – it is great to have one. But, -- let ME drive reality home – how often will I really use it? It’ll take up 3’ x 5’ of floor/wall space (plus the vacuum tower) (plus the space to maintain easy access to the loading door). For what? Initially I’ll be blasting everything (those damn horses better be paying attention), but after the novelty has worn off – and I have blasted (and powder coated) the left front attaching framus for the kaneutssen valve – what do I do with it?

You said: “The Welding area is tight, no big deal if you don't mind, but what are you going to be storing on your shelves? Nothing flammable I hope. Also where is the ventilation for this area? Fire Extinguisher?
Reply: Yup – gonna re-look the whole dirty area thing. Your comments about rotating the john and shortening the bench to provide room for the tool chest and a tool chart (another item I have played with on other floor plans but didn’t do here) may have an added bonus of providing more space in the dirty area.
The reason the short leg of the L-shaped bench is so long was to provide more space to the dirty area – an effort to make up for the narrowness of the area and protect the balance of the garage from the ravages of floating dust and rust particles. It ultimately – as you have pointed out – robbed floor space and crammed the area around the GS.

You said: “Also you have 1 light directly over the cab of the Jag (sweet car BTW). When the car is elevated this light is worthless except for mood ambient light. The light to the south over the trunk is better, but imagine this (assuming you can have the door up and the car up at the same time), it's a warm night, you have the door up and the car up {edit: you forgot to mention to cold beer in hand}. You’re working on the passenger rear suspension. That wheel-well will be dark. I'd rotate the light over the cab to just in front of the Press (running North-South) , the one over the trunk I'd also run N-S , but paralleling the Sky-light (I'm assuming that’s what the 2 big boxes are). Lighting symmetry is nice, but not always the best way.”
Answer: The Jag (and let’s be clear here – it IS a sweet car (thank you) and I have 2 x V-12’s: a 2+2 and a convertible; it's the GS I'm still shopping for) won’t always be on the lift. For that matter, the lift may be empty or the car on it may be on the floor. Your comment about the darkened passenger rear wheelwell goes away when I flip the switch that controls lighting circuit #6 which powers the in-floor floods.


• I like the winch on a truss idea—very creative.
• I got your word picture of the re-design of the john-workbench-tool chest-tool table. Watch this space
• I didn’t add fire extinguishers or the two wall-hung first aid kits in the diagram. It was getting too busy. I’m figuring at least 4 if not 5 extinguishers. I’ll add both into the lighting and electrical diagram for the next posting
• In-floor Spot Lights: I like ‘em. That's my answer and I'm stickin' to it. I found a web site with ones that are sealed and advertised as outdoors units. Should stand up to dropped tools and drain water and mopping. The portable fluorescent light set on a table sounds to me like a disaster waiting to happen – especially when the whole point is to improve visibility when changing oil or worked on the greasy side of the rig. Drop a ratchet or wrench once and the tray lighting is history . . . and you just lost 20 minutes cleaning up broken glass.
• Tool box – you are spot-on. I am still dissatisfied with its positioning. As well as the let’s-stick-it-over-here Hydraulic Press.

Chris – great comments all. I appreciate the time it took to find the warts and more especially the time it took to write them up. I look forward to returning the favor when you learn PowerPoint or some other program and post your plan.

Craig of Colorado Springs
(OK – so where is Sleepless in Seattle?)

 

[SprintCC]

You Said: I am really of two minds on the whole blast cabinet thing. No doubt – it is great to have one. But, -- let ME drive reality home – how often will I really use it? It’ll take up 3’ x 5’ of floor/wall space (plus the vacuum tower) (plus the space to maintain easy access to the loading door). For what? Initially I’ll be blasting everything (those damn horses better be paying attention), but after the novelty has worn off – and I have blasted (and powder coated) the left front attaching framus for the kaneutssen valve – what do I do with it?


Reply: Are you looking to restore a GS or get a restored one? If your going to restore it you will probably need the blast cabinet unless you have a friend with one. If space is the concern you could try a bench top model. I've known people to swear at them and people who swear by benchtops. They are smaller, you'd save floorspace at the expense of workbench space.

When your sure your done and it's a large dust magnet sell it. I suspect it would move quickly.

Selling an oven might be more problematic, not sure.

You make some very good points about the lights in the floor. 1 more question, what if the wires break, corrode, etc (I'm assuming they are in/under the floor too)? Or is this just not a concern? Having said that I will admit that I'm planning radiant heat in my floor, and I suspect a pipe/tube leaking fluid would be much more problematic to the floor than an electrical short in conduit. Pass me the Hypocrit award.

Looking forward to your revisions

Chris
Blue Bell Pa

 

[Stuart in MN]

A couple thoughts...

The in-floor lights: there are a number of brands and styles designed for flush mounting in outside sidewalks and drives (you sometimes see them in front of fancy hotels.) The problem is that while they are designed to seal out the rain and snow, inside a garage they'll be exposed to gas, oil, solvents, and other flammable things. If lights installed outdoors leak, water gets in and shorts out the light, no big deal. However, if a light in your garage floor leaks and some gasoline gets in, that could be another story. Also, they usually aren't very cheap and can be tricky to install, as I believe most of them are designed to be cast into the floor when the concrete is poured.

Floor drains: They're a nice thing to have, but make sure they are permitted by your local building codes. Many areas prohibit them in residential garages, and allow them in commercial garages only if they have a grease trap to catch any nasty stuff that may drip on the floor and get washed down the drain.

 

[Craig Balzer]

Garage Plans -- Part II

OK guys -- thanx to everyone who commented, looked or even just glanced my way. I have another shot at the plans for my Garage Mahal.

But first: to Chris in Blue Bell, the math works out that if I had stayed with a 3.5’ deep L-shaped work bench the diagonal distance from the corner of the wall at the intersection to my belly at the edge of the bench would be 59.4 inches or 4.95 feet. Great catch and even better way to drive home your point. Thanx again.
.....My intent on the GS keeps changing: sometimes it’s a full frame-off restoration and then its simply pull both front fenders to restore the front third of the frame, the fire wall and all things involved in that. So, as a minimum, I’d need to store the hood and two fenders.

Stuart -- thanx for the admonishment about the in-floor drains. Didn't know local regs may trip me up. I understand that the in-floor lights need to be installed when the floor is poured. I will need to look deeper at the web site with your comment in mind about leaks of flammables. Good catch.

I have done my homework and believe I incorporated nearly every comment into the new floor design:
… narrower work bench
… ladder replaced with staircase
… vise on welding table
… more area in the Dirty Work Area
… mobile work bench (love that idea!!)
… a better location for tool box and hydraulic press and
… I trashed the double sink (already have a sink in the bathroom).

As I was staring at my computer screen for hours on end, I realized that with floor space dedicated to a two-post lift in the right-hand bay and a flat floor work area big enough for an A-body GM muscle car beside it, there are only two slivers of area on which to expend creative energy. Those are the 8-foot wide slice along the left of the drawing and the 8-9 foot slice along the top of the drawing.

Now the tricky part. I drew the floor plan as viewed from directly above: two-dimensional perspective. But with the staircase leading to the storage area over the bathroom and dirty work area, it becomes a 3 dimensional diagram. So, after a bunch of doodling and noodling, I tried to show the back wall of the floor in a 3D perspective. This is the second slide; I hope this better displays my concept.


So – a new set of questions: will THIS work? Major issues obviously are:
…..how much floor space will I lose to the staircase? I can see that there may be interference between teh under side of the stair case and the bathroom door
…..the storage area is only 4 feet high. I know and understand I’ll be squatting and crawling around up there any time I venture off the main floor. But it is – after all – just storage. A very small amount of time will be spent up there retrieving or storing stuff. Of course, a lot depends on the type of roof I use. A gable roof will provide much more head space.
….. how much would I gain if the roof were 12 feet rather than 11? Or maybe even higher?
…..what warts have I introduced by “fixing” previous issues and adding a third dimension to the mix?

Since I am not sure if a second floor will even work, I haven’t reworked the electrical and lighting plan, yet -- -- (those fire extinguishers and first aid kits are in the wings).

Take your best shot. Negative comments are preferred unless you are truly in love with this design. But a negative comment without a recommended improvement is not worth a whole lot. Anyone can say “that’s dumb” or “why’d ya do it THAT way”– step up to the bar and state your case. You've done a great job so far.

Thanx in advance to any and all who had commented and those will are about to.

Craig with-too-much-time-on-his-hands Balzer

 

[SprintCC]

More to come later after I digest it (tomorrow or the next day, busy couple of Days comming up).

3 comments

1) I think your moving in the right direction, 1st impression is this is a much better layout.

2) I know alot of people (including myself) banged on the ladder idea. Now I see your layout I think a Hybrid solution is in order.

How about full width/height stairs for 3-4 steps, that will get you about 2-3 feet in the air. At the top of the stairs have a ladder. If I'm reading your 2nd plan right the loft floor is only 7 feet off the floor, so if you walk up the stairs all you need to do is lift the item to chest/head level, push it onto the loft floor and climb up the ladder after it. It will save ALOT of space. You could use a step ladder and a ladder but permenently mounted stairs would be much more stable.

If you do this I'd leave the stairs where they are, flip the toilet to same wall as the sink (infront of the current door), and move the door to the right (not under the stairs, opening to where the toilet is now)

3) SWMBO (a term common on vintage-mustang.com, stands for She Who Must Be Obeyed, aka the Wife) is a Tech-Writer. While Power Point is not her mainstay she is better at it than "almost eveyone" she's ever dealt with. Quickly becomes recognized as the local expert in her new offices (she contracts alot).

She was *very* impressed by your design in PowerPoint. She figures she could figure out how to do it, but said "Now that's impressive! Oh, yeah, he knows PowerPoint better than me." Kudos to you.

Chris
Blue Bell Pa

 

[dodge78]

You may need more than 11 ft ceiling depending on the lift you will use. The ones I looked at needed 13 ft.
I am also wondering if you need 5.5 ft behind the lift, 3.5 ft would get you enough room to get around the vehicle with door shut and still carry something. If you were to move the bathroon door as mention before, you could put the fridge under the steps to give you more room to move.
Other small things I see would be:
Turn the sink so you are not wedged between the sink and shower.
Move the blast cabinet and oven to the wall where the table is, that way you can move the table to get more access to the welding table, grinder, buffer.
Where the yellow and black wall is, I would put that section of wall on rollers Like a poleshed door), continue the solid wall on the right side of it. Put a regular door in the movable wall, that way you can keep the dirt in the dirty room or move the section of wall when you need extra space.
I would also move the animal section to the left and the storage area to the middle incase you want to expand into it. I understand both floors will be heated with the storage to be dirt but you can never have enough garage space.
Just some different ideas for you.

tom

 

[krooser]

God, I hate to say this but.....All this plannng is real good practice BUT, when you actually get the shop built, and you move all of your stuff to the designated areas, you'll find yourself moving things around 'cuz what you THOUGHT would work really doesn't.

I've been through this a few times and I'm doing it again right now.

I just tore down some shelves that I THOUGHT were the cat's ***...but they were too deep (hard to get the stuff to the front)....I built 'em to outlast the Pyramids...but they are firewood now.

My welding table WAS against a wall...now it's free standing in the middle of my fab area...it's MUCH easier to clamp and weld stuff when you have 360 degree access.

I now have two BIG walls and a sliding door...more shelf area for storage and a seperate parts room keeps things more organized. Plus I don't have to heat all of the shop.

I wired my back wall with an on/off switch for my Unit Heater...but I sold it before I installed it and bought a Radiant Tube heater...which is in the FRONT of my shop...

Plans are great...but changes are inevitible...IMHO

 

[Craig Balzer]

krooser

I hear exactly what you’re saying about plans and how long they survive. I have been retired from the Army after nearly 28 years and we have a saying: “No plan survives contact with the enemy”. But, without a plan, or at least a major direction of movement, it doesn’t matter in which direction you take your first step. And in this situation, there is no enemy to foul the plan.

I’ll admit that when I sat down to sketch out the floor plan I was mostly concerned only about the placement of lighting and the various outlets. Then I realized I needed to at least rough in the placement of benches and appliances that required power. Then, overhead shelves or anything else that could affect the lighting stared to creep into my thoughts. Before you know it, I was diagramming more details than even I imagined I would get in to.

You see – I do have a lot time on my hands. No; I’m not a convict sitting in Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary. After the military, I took a defense contractor position in Kabul, Afghanistan. This summer there were several kidnappings of westerners and my company instituted what is called a lock-down: no unnecessary travel. So, since last April, I have seen the inside of my room in the safe house and my desk. Full stop.

L—O—T—S of time on my hands. So, I’ll sketch and think and sketch some more and think a while longer. I’ll ponder this and I’ll ponder that. I've read four books on garage construction and planning the home auto hobby shop.

Will all or some of these sketches survive to reality? Yeah, prolly. Will some or all of it have changed? Sure, some . . . but not all. It's still a pretty accurate plan for lights, outlets, work areas and storage areas.

I appreciate the caution but hope it hasn’t put too big a damper on the conversations in this thread. No harm – no foul.

So, krooser – any comments about one of my sketches? Take your pick; there are several on the thread. And -- -- if you wait just a short while, I’ll be posting Plan III. All of this is sorta like the Rocky movie series. You know the sequel won’t be as good as the original – but ya gotta take at least a peek.

Craig in Kabul

 

[Craig Balzer]

Plan III (or Rocky III: The Russian Threat)

Chris

Thanx for the comments and the encouragement about moving in the right direction. I think so, too.

tom

I am actually encouraged by your "may need a taller ceiling for a 2-poster" comment. All that does is provide more head room in my loft storage area. One Gold Star.
.....I really like your idea about stashing a 1/2 frig under the stairs. I visualized a full refrigerator so never even considered that option. Two Gold Stars.
.....You comments about rearranging the dirty room were spot on. Done.
.....Sliding door!! YES. But the man doesn't stop there -- -- put a pedestrian door in the sliding door to absolutely contain the dirt and minimize **** getting into the main floor. I'm flat out of Gold Stars. Absolutely incredibe idea. LOVE IT!!

So -- I know if you all read this far, you're anxiously waiting to see the next evolution of my plan. But first -- a thank you:

to Chris' un-named wife (SWMBO) -- thanx for the compliment. Given your encouragement, I went a bit over-board in fleshing out my visualiation of the floor plan. The third slide in this posting is dedicated to you

Some of you are thinking that I am truly ****-retentive. If you think this is bad, I'm 2/3 complete with a 3-D scale model of the floor plan cut from cardboard stock. I'll take a digital photo when I figure out how to "make" the cars. the walls are done and most of the benches and cabinets are done -- to scale.

Craig -- getting stir crazy in Kabul

 

[river1]

Some of you are thinking that I am truly ****-retentive. If you think this is bad, I'm 2/3 complete with a 3-D scale model of the floor plan cut from cardboard stock. I'll take a digital photo when I figure out how to "make" the cars. the walls are done and most of the benches and cabinets are done -- to scale.

Craig -- getting stir crazy in Kabul

what is the scale of this 3d model?

i'd also swap the toilet and sink and put the sink so you're faceing the stair area when useing it. i'd also swing the bathroom door the other way (but still in toward the bathroom) so that when it's open it'll be flat against the wall and out of the way.

later jim

 

[Fast Orange]

Craig-
Another thing to take into account on the storage loft-depending on framing method and anticipated floor load,you may only wind up with 3 foot height on the loft.Also,you may want to rethink a 7 foot height under the loft-after hanging lights,you'll only have about 6'8" total,and if your welding table is 42" high you'll only have38" to the cieling-not much room to swing a BFH when you need to.
As mentioned previously, having 360 degree access around a welding table is almost a necessity.
As nice as it may seem to have a separate ,walled off "dirty work area", I think you are limiting your options for flexability in this size of a shop.You will also find that dirty work happens everywhere in a shop-for example,you will need to weld on a car while it's on the lift(exhaust work,for example),you will need to cut/grind on the car(rust repair,frame painting),and sanding body filler turns the whole shop into a dust storm.
My suggestions are to increase the ceiling height to 12',forget the "dirty work "wals,and use enclosed cabinets instead of shelves,and plan on moving the clean cars out when the work gets nasty.
Another thing to realize regarding the floor lights and any electric under a certain height off the floor(3',I believe)-an area meant for repair/maintenance of cars/trucks fall under an explosion proof rule in the National Electric Code-you need to consult the local electric inspector to find out the specifics,but the floor lights either may not be allowed,or may have to be a special type for this application.
Sorry to send you back to the drawing board,but I think you can see my points.
Looking forward to your next design,

George

 

[Craig Balzer]

Jim River1

The scale of the model was pretty easy to derive. I have one ruler in my room and it is 50 cm long -- without any "inch" markings. That worked out pretty well, actually. I set 1 cm = 1 foot. My little model garage is almost 12" square (floor plan is 30' x 30' so the model is 30 cm or 11.8+ inches on a side). This ratio made all other calculations very sgtraight forward -- no convoluted fractions or math-back-flips to slow down the process.

The plan shows 11 foot walls, so the model is 4 1/3 inches tall. All the interior "things" are modeled; even the blast cabinet with an angled face came out pretty well.

The challenge with be the cars. Still noodling over those. They don't need to be too precise; in fact being a bit sloppy on the dimensions will give me a better persepctive of the working space around each.

Aside from all the ankle-biter comments of late on my plan, if the model is a more accurate representation of real life, it's looking like even the 1/2 stair case will preclude a 10' bench along the north wall. The bench, the tool chest and then the stairs may be too much to fit along that wall -- foreshortened as it is with the wall for the bathroom. More screen-staring and planning in my immediate future.

Craig

 

[Craig Balzer]

Boy George Fast Orange -- you sure can find ways to throw a wet blanket on a guy's party.

You got me re-thinking the whole dirty work area thing . . . and the more comments I get, the more I am inclined to (try to) convince SWMBO to go for 13' or 14' walls. Just not sure if that will make the whole structure (78' x 30') look too blocky -- neighborhood covenants, don't ya know.

And it's off to more Net searching to learn a bunch more about the in-floor spots I found a month ago. Between your comments and those from Minnesota Stuart about flammables on the floor/in the lamps -- ya got me thinking A LOT.

Hang in there -- more to follow . . . .

Craig how-do-you-spell-Google Balzer

 

[Fast Orange]

Craig-
The last thing I intended to do was to "throw a wet blanket" on your enthusiasmfor your garage.Through my personal experience,Iwanted to pass on to you a few shortcomings I saw in your design.If I came across as a party pooper,I sincerly apologize.
Here are a few ideas I had since my last comments.
1)Loft Storage-
Instead of a 7' loft along the back wall, how about a 4' "shelf over bench areas?
Install some 2' deep shelving against the wall in parts of it ,and leave the rest open for storage of larger items.Access would be with a ladder that would hang out of the way when not in use.Heavier items could be stored in areas under benches or in dirt floored garage.
2)Dirty Work Area-
Like I said in my first post,it's going to be impossible to limit dirty work to just one area of the shop.The best solution I have found is to make it as easy as possible to clean up after a nasty job.Maximize use of enclosed cabinets as opposed to open shelving,put plenty of air connection throughout the shop to make it easier to blow the dust out of the corners,nooks and crannys.and move anything youwant to keep clean out of the shop when things start getting dirty.
Also.put an exhaust fan near the welding area.
3)Flexibility-
Put as much equiptment,work tables,welding table,etc on wheels or locking casters as you can.Store this stuff against a wall or some out of the way area when not in use.Also makes it easier to clean up when needed.
4)Under Lift Lighting-
Mount a 4' enclosed flourescent fixture on a small cart,with fixture aimed up-add a small work surface to hold parts and tools and you're set.Put a plug on the cart for a droplight and you've got that whole situation covered for a lot less $ than the infloor lights.
My shop at work is 30' wide by 40' deep and should be twice that size for the amount of equiptment and tools in it.I wish I could post some pictures and show you the layout'but between this antique computer and not having a digital camera,I don't have the needed capabilities.In this shop,I've got a welding area equipped with MIG,stick,plasma cutter,o/a torch and a 3'x6' t-slot welding table.The shop also has a Bridgeport,2 drill presses,a belt/disc sander,a 10" chopsaw,a 20" chopsaw,a 4' jump shear,a 4' box and pan brake,a metal cutting bandsaw,a radial arm saw and a table saw,along with several workbenches and tables,my toolbox and it's own bathroom.With everything put in it's place,I can get a medium sized truck inside for repairs and have enough room to work on it.A lot of the equiptment is on wheels,and is put away and cleaned after each use.
My boss is a neat freak,so the shop is blown out and swept daily.
So you see,you can get a lot of stuff in a limited space and make it work.The planning you're doing now will pay off later.Keep up the good work.

George

 

[krooser]

krooser

I hear exactly what you’re saying about plans and how long they survive. I have been retired from the Army after nearly 28 years and we have a saying: “No plan survives contact with the enemy”. But, without a plan, or at least a major direction of movement, it doesn’t matter in which direction you take your first step. And in this situation, there is no enemy to foul the plan.

I’ll admit that when I sat down to sketch out the floor plan I was mostly concerned only about the placement of lighting and the various outlets. Then I realized I needed to at least rough in the placement of benches and appliances that required power. Then, overhead shelves or anything else that could affect the lighting stared to creep into my thoughts. Before you know it, I was diagramming more details than even I imagined I would get in to.

You see – I do have a lot time on my hands. No; I’m not a convict sitting in Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary. After the military, I took a defense contractor position in Kabul, Afghanistan. This summer there were several kidnappings of westerners and my company instituted what is called a lock-down: no unnecessary travel. So, since last April, I have seen the inside of my room in the safe house and my desk. Full stop.

L—O—T—S of time on my hands. So, I’ll sketch and think and sketch some more and think a while longer. I’ll ponder this and I’ll ponder that. I've read four books on garage construction and planning the home auto hobby shop.

Will all or some of these sketches survive to reality? Yeah, prolly. Will some or all of it have changed? Sure, some . . . but not all. It's still a pretty accurate plan for lights, outlets, work areas and storage areas.

I appreciate the caution but hope it hasn’t put too big a damper on the conversations in this thread. No harm – no foul.

So, krooser – any comments about one of my sketches? Take your pick; there are several on the thread. And -- -- if you wait just a short while, I’ll be posting Plan III. All of this is sorta like the Rocky movie series. You know the sequel won’t be as good as the original – but ya gotta take at least a peek.

Craig in Kabul

Craig,

I understand your position....and you're on the right track. I think you are mature enough to realize that plans change..as you have indicated.

Funny, when you're 25 or 30 you kinda think that the way things are today is the way they will always be...whether it's a marriage, your taste in cars or a shop. A little gray hair changes all of that....

It's a good plan...you'll get it right.

BTW...I applied to KBR about a driving job in Kuwait, Afganistan or Iraq in mid-2003. They never acknowledged my application and I kinda got sick of not being able to get the right recruiter and gave up.

Keep up the good work and stay safe.

Krooser

 

[Stuart in MN]

Another thing to realize regarding the floor lights and any electric under a certain height off the floor(3',I believe)-an area meant for repair/maintenance of cars/trucks fall under an explosion proof rule in the National Electric Code-you need to consult the local electric inspector to find out the specifics,but the floor lights either may not be allowed,or may have to be a special type for this application.

There is a section in the NEC (article 511, for those who are reading along) that deals with commercial garages. It states that the entire area up to a level of 18" above the floor is a Class 1, Division 2 location. Without going into all the details, basically that means an area where volatile, flammable liquids or gases may be present, and it also means special materials and procedures are required for any electrical equipment or wiring used in that area.

The way I read it, Section 511 only applies to commercial garages, but I suspect that's only because the guys who wrote the code didn't think about anyone wanting to do this sort of stuff at home. There may also be local codes that do apply to home garages, but that can vary from one location to another. And, as Fast Orange indicated, the local inspector has the final say.

 

[Craig Balzer]

More on In-Ground Lighting

Stuart et al

Good timing on the NEC posting. I sent an e-mail the other day to Tahoe Lighting. I found these guys through this bulletin board http://www.tahoelighting.com/. . Most of their stuff is decorative or for use to light a garden path or walkway. BUT, they do carry in-ground stuff – here: http://www.tahoelighting.com/store2.asp?Category=PavingLightsandInConcreteLighting.

Given all the comments about flammable gas and heavy tools near these lights, I fired off this series of questions:

QUOTE
Next spring I'll be erecting a 30' x 78' hobby shop in my back yard. The auto hobby-shop part of the building will be 30' x 30'. I am planning to have a 2-post car lift in one of the work bays. So -- here's my problem: How to light the underside of the car while it's on a lift?

I assume that the solution to my dilemma is your rectangular or octagonal in-ground light called Emerald or Sierra, or another product you recommend for this application. My plans call for 4 of them laid out in a square under where the front half of the car would be and another "square" of them laid out under where the rear of the car would be. OK so far -- I guess (you tell me).

Specific concerns/questions/issues:

1. The in-ground lights have been on for -- let's say -- 2 hours. I spill some flammable liquid (gas, mineral spirits, etc). How big is the explosion/fire?
2. I am working under the car on the lift and drop a 2 pound hammer directly onto the glass face of the lamp. What happens?
3. A bulb burns out. Is the seal around the in-ground lamp fixture compromised during the replacement process (see question 1)?
4. A friend of mine cautioned me by saying "Another thing to realize regarding the floor lights and any electric under a certain height off the floor(3',I believe) - an area meant for repair/maintenance of cars/trucks falls under an explosion proof rule in the National Electric Code - you need to consult the local electric inspector to find out the specifics, but the floor lights either may not be allowed, or may have to be a special type for this application." Does he bring up valid points/issues? (my hobby shop will be in Colorado Springs if that matters)
5. What do I need to consider when pouring the concrete floor?
6. I also plan to have in-floor radiant heating. Any problems with installing these two systems in one floor?
7. How often do your customers need to tear up the concrete floor because the wiring or whatever just went ****?
8. Given the above plan of 8 lamps, what would it cost for the lamps, wiring, transformers, conduit, and whatever else I need to make this work?

Thanks in advance for your prompt reply.

Craig
UNQUOTE

..........In just two days (one of which was Sunday), this was the reply I received:

QUOTE
Craig,

Any type of liquid that is flammable will burn the lens. I have never actually poured these liquids on the lights so I'm not sure about the explosion part. You will not have to worry about dropping anything on the light if you go with the Lexan Up-Grade. This is the strongest plastic out there. These lights are all low voltage so you will have no problem changing bulbs at any time. Again these lights are low voltage so an Electrician is not needed, but I would consult your local codes to make sure about the Explosion Proof Rule. All county and state laws are different. When pouring concrete you will want to place the wire into conduit just incase something does happen to the wire, this will also help controlling the heat that comes off of the in-ground heating. We sell a 8 light kit for $262.50 and the pre-forms are $21.00 each. If you have any further questions you can reach me at any of the following numbers.
UNQUOTE

Looks like they answered all my questions and the whole idea seems to hold water. All I need to do is check local electrical codes.

Thanx, all, for the cautions and concerns; but I think I wll ultimately try this system

Craig

 

[river1]

Jim River1

The scale of the model was pretty easy to derive. I have one ruler in my room and it is 50 cm long -- without any "inch" markings. That worked out pretty well, actually. I set 1 cm = 1 foot. My little model garage is almost 12" square (floor plan is 30' x 30' so the model is 30 cm or 11.8+ inches on a side). This ratio made all other calculations very sgtraight forward -- no convoluted fractions or math-back-flips to slow down the process.

The plan shows 11 foot walls, so the model is 4 1/3 inches tall. All the interior "things" are modeled; even the blast cabinet with an angled face came out pretty well.

The challenge with be the cars. Still noodling over those. They don't need to be too precise; in fact being a bit sloppy on the dimensions will give me a better persepctive of the working space around each.

Aside from all the ankle-biter comments of late on my plan, if the model is a more accurate representation of real life, it's looking like even the 1/2 stair case will preclude a 10' bench along the north wall. The bench, the tool chest and then the stairs may be too much to fit along that wall -- foreshortened as it is with the wall for the bathroom. More screen-staring and planning in my immediate future.

Craig

well if my math is correct you are roughly 1:30 scale, maybe someone better at math can check me. they have diecast cars in 1:24 scale and slot cars in 1:32 scale. you can pick up a toy in a close enough scale to give you your persepctive.

i have an idea for your stairs also but need to find a pic online as i'm not good at describing in words what i see in my head.

later jim

 

[river1]

i found a good explaination of the stairs i was see in my head

check this site, be sure to check the links for more pics. also check the post by John Raabe

alternating tread stair

hope it helps jim

 

[Stuart in MN]

Ah. Low voltage lighting is a good idea. I think it will be much safer than using 120vac equipment.

I believe those alternating stairs are sometimes referred to as ship ladders, you may find more information using that term in your search.

 

[Fast Orange]

Craig-
Where'd you go ?
Looking forward to your next version of your shop-

George

 

[Craig Balzer]

George

Still here. But I can't say the same about the Internet connection. Power in Kabul is available to the average citizen only about 30% of the time (and THIS is the biggest and most modern Afghanistan has to offer ). Because of that, all the safe houses that we live in are hard wired to a diesel generator. That generator runs 24/7 and provides power for all the lights, outlets and appliances. It has been running for over 1 year. One year is 8760 hours; the generator is warrantied for 10,000 hours. Hmmm. Then add in the heating season and circuits go .

Each house has a file server for Internet connection. It prefers to have a steady power feed. If not -- .

Add in that the Muslim world just finished celebrating their major religious holiday of the year: Ramadan. What I didn't learn until I got here is they conclude Ramadan with a huge three-day festival called Eid. It ranks up there with a combination of our Christmas + Easter + New Year's. So -- the local guy who maintians the file server was off on a four day bender. Of course, the server crashed on day 1 of Eid. .

And on top of it all, I've been pulling 12-14 hours days of late but only 8 to 10 hours on the weekends . And, to add insult on top of insult: the last two days there hasn't been water pressure on my (3rd) floor. So, I've been packing my shower kit and change of clothes to work and showering/shaving there.

To make a long story short -- TOO LATE -- what little personal time I've have has been dedicated to sleeping (selfish ******* that I am ). Besides, I took a break from my plans to offer some ideas on the plans that Eric van Ha posted over in the General garage Discussion forun of the BB (http://www.garagejunkies.net/showthread.php?t=1589).

Ready to get back it, I remain . . .

Craig why-use-a-word-when-a-paragraph-will-do Balzer

 

[Fast Orange]

Craig-
Glad to hear you're OK.Look at it this way-Better busy than bored.
As for the generator,they're kind of like cars-when they're run long and hard,they last longer than if they only get run for a few minutes a day.With proper maintenance ,10,000 hours is just getting broken in.
Looking forward to your next post,George

 

[Craig Balzer]

Hey guys

Thanx for staying tuned; and to George the Fast Orange: appreciate the encouragement. I have some vacation coming up: gonna be back home from 16 December until 3 January. Christmas at home in the foothills of the Rockies! May sound like ****ty driving weather but C Springs gets about 330 days a year of sunshine. When it does snow, it’s all gone in a matter of hours or days.

I have put the finishing touches on my model – mostly to help me visualize the whole thing. I’ll let the marked up photos speak for themselves. I tacked each on a PowerPoint slide so I could put notations directly on each photo. All the items in the model are pretty close to scale. The thickness of the cardboard and the scale I used makes most of the items a bit bigger than the scale would indicate. For instance, the three 5 foot tall storage cabinets are either 18” or 24” deep. They came out deeper than that cuz of the thickness of the cardboard. Oh yeah – and it looks like I’m building a GS that got tapped in the right rear – the scissors I was using was getting pretty dull near the end of the effort. That corner came out a little ****-eyed.

So – as usual, blast away. Any and all comments. No sacred cows.

Craig

 

[Roadster]

Where are Barbie and Ken?

 

[Craig Balzer]

In the back seat of the Buick.
Can't you see th.... Oh, wait -- the windows are fogged over

 

[Fast Orange]

Looking good,Craig-
Is the two post lift still in the plans-didn't see it in the model.
I'd suggest shrinking the mobile bench-if you make it 32"X 48",it'll still be large enough for most tasks,but much easier to move between cars-and it'll fit through a 36" door.
I haven't noticed a location for an air compressor-maybe on loft in sound dampening enclosure?A horizontal 80 gal. would probably fit in the 4' headroom,as long as it wasn't more than 7 HP or so.

George

 

[Roadster]

In the back seat of the Buick.
Can't you see th.... Oh, wait -- the windows are fogged over

LOL! Great response.

I would recommend against the wall separating the main garage floor from the dirty work area. The way you've got things laid out, there's not enough room to maneuver around the front of your vehicles. Very little room for an engine hoist or even a hydraulic jack to access from the front. If you are doing dirty work, you can always use a portable partition (e.g., tinted welding curtain) to protect the main work area. You can still use the loft area without a support wall beneath the front face if you use proper cantilever supports.

 

[sberry]

I would work a urinal into the bathromm somehow, or adjacent from the other side.