Looking for some pointers on heating pole barn

[Lph008]

I'm in Buffalo Ny, 24x36x12 walls have r19 and are covered with 1/2" T1-11. The ceiling will have r38 and metal. I have 5 3x3 windows, 1- 10x10 insulated door and 1 man door. I'm looking for options on a heater.

I'd like to keep it around 45-50° during the winter. I'm looking for some help as far as what type of heater and what size. Also curious what people are paying for propane for a year with similar conditions. I may get a tank and use propane rather than natural gas. That way I can get a pool heater too lol. If I run natural gas, it's about a 170' run under driveway. So that's why I'm looking at propane as an option. That way I can also heat my pool

 

[Lph008]

 

[MadScientist3019]

I pulled my propane tank and got rid of all propane uses as it's gotten super expensive around here (KS) to use for these type purposes. I used to have a propane heater for the pool as well and I didn't dare use it for that as it just eats gas like crazy. I honestly think with your specs depending on your design temperatures for the area a small mini-split would be a good option. You can use some online Manual J calculators to determine btu's needed and with the mini you get cooling and drying when heating isn't required.

 

[Lph008]

I'm in Buffalo Ny so we have some pretty hot/humid summers and some long cold winters.

The barn will be used for my mancave/ shop. I work on a lot of snowblowers, atvs, snowmobiles. Small engine stuff. Planning on a couple tvs and darts, poll table, etc.

 

[Innovate1]

From what I looked up you average 3 days a year above 90. Sounds like not so hot/humid but I suppose it's just whatever people are used to. If you want cooling a heat pump may be a good option but I suspect you may need some additional heat in the winter. Natural gas furnaces are great for heating but you have to keep them around 60 minimum or you risk condensation in the heat exchanger where they can't handle it and they will die early.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Spray foam the entire interior with 2", then add additional insulation, especially in the ceiling. Your biggest problem will be likely be a damp, cold floor, assuming you did not put solid foam an vapor barrier down.

NG will always be cheaper in the long run, unless you are willing to turn the heat off completely when using propane.

A mini-splits heat pump designed for cold weather will cost more to install but you will make your money back. Bonus is A/C for no additional cost. For the most even heating/cooling you will need 2 air handlers.

 

[Lph008]

I'm not interested in a mini split. Just looking for info on heating. Not doing spray foam either. My insulation is r19 walls and will be r38 ceiling. No I didn't use foam under concrete, just a 10 mil poly

Ps cone to buffalo in July/August and you'll see what I mean haha. Obviously every year isn't hot and every winter isn't cold. We're currently having a very mild winter but we got 6ft of snow over 2 days to start the winter off haha

 

[rocket29]

I'm in the Shenandoah Valley, VA and have a similar size garage. I use it as a workshop and storage for a classic '67 Corvette. So I wanted to have heat and A/C. I decided on a mini-split (Carrier) and it works great. In winter I keep it at 60 degrees and the few times I used it last summer it cooled the space fairly quick.

My main concern and deciding factor in selecting the mini-split was I did not want to have any open flames anywhere in the garage. Gasoline fumes and open flames don't mix well. Plus the garage is attached to the house.

Mini-split units do have some limitations. They may not be appropiate in Buffalo because of low winter temperatures. You would have to check if they will work in your area.

 

[PoorUB]

If I run natural gas, it's about a 170' run under driveway. So that's why I'm looking at propane as an option.

If you are planning on staying for many years I would run the gas line for natural gas in a heart beat! Unlimited supply and easily 1/3rd, or more, the price of propane.

As for size? 30 BTU per square foot has never let my down. You might get by on less as it seems to be well built. a 30,000 BTU gas heater should heat it just fine, 45,000 BTU at the most. Hang a Reznor or a Modine Hot Dawg or perhaps a Mr Heater.

 

[PoorUB]

Oh, in the dead of winter it may cost you $100 a month to heat it on NG. Propane will fluctuate more, but $300-$400 a month on propane.

 

[Kaizen]

I only run my propane off a bottle inside to get it up to 40 and then i'm sweating. I guess if you are sitting out there watching the game you want it cozy. But for that size garage i bet you will pay the same as you do to heat the house. For NG you could have a few wall hung ceiling units or one of those long pipe heaters.
I'd check out your electricity costs vz natural gas. I just installed a 32k multi head minisplit in my house. I use that for heat down to about 40. It works below that but works hard so i turn on my oil. The other thing a minisplit does supremely well that comes in handy in our climate is dehumidify. Last year we had several days of miserable humidity but only 85 degrees. These things sucked gallons out per hour and no need to run ac. Its only going to get hotter up here brother.

 

[PoorUB]

I'd check out your electricity costs vz natural gas. I just installed a 32k multi head minisplit in my house. I use that for heat down to about 40.

But he said he didn't want a mini split, doesn't need AC and he still would need a gas heater! So why bother with the mini split!

 

[Lph008]

Thanks guys. I wasn't sure how much propane was compared to gas. They wanted me to fill out an application and credit check etc. Before they would give me any numbers for a propane tank, now I know. I was hoping propane wasn't so bad, was really trying not to dig up part of my driveway too.

Electric is too much, I grow my own weed and with 2 led lights and 2 small exhaust fans and 4 small 6 inch fans running all the time, my electric is pretty high.

I'll go with the NG and start shopping around for a 40k btu heater

 

[i4ni]

Radiant tube heater is an option either LP or NG and they warm everything.

 

[toyotadriver]

I don't know what your natural gas and propane rates are. That said, since you can get natural gas and presumably have it already for your house, I would go with natural gas. If you still wanted to go with propane, then I would install a mini split and a small vented propane heater....like 30k BTU. The mini split would handle a lot of the daily heating needs plus provide AC in the summer if you want it and the propane heater would handle the super cold temps.

But sounds like you made up your mind to run the natural gas line. That's smart. Good luck.




Nothing in this post should be misunderstood, interpreted, misinterpreted, or construed to be of a political nature.

 

[pcmeiners]

Heating cost comparison spreadsheet, variable are years old but once replaced with present costs it is a handy comparison spreadsheet.............
I do not think you want to heat with $$$ propane. If you install a minsplit get it way off the ground, higher than the following, unless shoveling snow in a blizzard is your exercise.
"Formed 3.5" slabs with composite 4"x4" legs (Home Depot), concrete filled, raising off the slabs 18" to keep snow and debris away from my 5 minisplits. I would not think of mounting any on a wall."

HEAT-CALC-Vsn-D_1-09.xls

https://www.maine.gov/energy/sites/maine.gov.energy/files/inline-files/Home-Heating-Calculator.xls

Below is prefilled cells with average USA utility costs in 2024, replace with your costs after downloading from link above.

 

[Kaizen]

But he said he didn't want a mini split, doesn't need AC and he still would need a gas heater! So why bother with the mini split!

minisplit heat just fine. but notice i said compare the costs. if he can't dig that trench and do the work himself i bet costs are comparable.
running costs are what will kill ya

 

[Jackfre]

A Rinnai EX 38 will walk away with that space. Vent is included as is the programmable stat and you can set the stat as low as 38* for maintenance. You are going to have substantial load with a pool heater and I think you will find it better to dig and run a bunch of Poly for the NG. Rent a small excavator, hire someone to punch a sleeve under the drive and run the gas line. Add a tracer wire to the hole. Oversize the line.

 

[pcmeiners]

"But he said he didn't want a mini split, doesn't need AC and he still would need a gas heater!"

He may not need AC, but humidity is uncomfortable, and condensation is still an issue.

On the other hand, NG is close in running cost, and if he runs the line, it is cheaper than a mini. I would run a NG line next to the driveway and connect with a diagonal cut near the street, even if you have to cut into the beginning of the driveway. Propane is at least 3x NG. Heating a pool with it would be a good idea if your were a multi multi millionaire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm not interested in a mini split.

If you already have at least 60A electrical service to that building, you won't have to dig a trench for the gas line.

Long term, heat pump is the most cost effective to heat. Bonus is free A/C !

 

[theoldwizard1]

On the other hand, NG is close in running cost, and if he runs the line, it is cheaper than a mini.

The equipment is cheaper. Running the gas line, even if you are digging your own trench, costs more than existing electrical.

Many studies have shown that heat pumps are the most cost effective way of heating. The only discussion is pay back time. SWAG- between 5 and 10 years.

 

[AC-WC]

Might be worth your effort to do the NG line. I don't know the cost of used propane tanks but if I remember right I paid around $1200 for (2) 500 gal tanks at least 10 yrs ago. IF the gas line is the same as the tank cost then you'll be better off with NG. If you're paying $3 for propane you're not buying at the right time. I haven't paid more than $1.50 gal since I bought my (2) 500 gal tanks. If you rent a tank you will likely pay $3 from the supplier. Late spring through July is usually the best time to buy propane.
Your building is about 1/2 the size of my house and I go through 6-800 gal/yr depending on the winter. Similar insulation as yours.

 

[Lph008]

Might be worth your effort to do the NG line. I don't know the cost of used propane tanks but if I remember right I paid around $1200 for (2) 500 gal tanks at least 10 yrs ago. IF the gas line is the same as the tank cost then you'll be better off with NG. If you're paying $3 for propane you're not buying at the right time. I haven't paid more than $1.50 gal since I bought my (2) 500 gal tanks. If you rent a tank you will likely pay $3 from the supplier. Late spring through July is usually the best time to buy propane.
Your building is about 1/2 the size of my house and I go through 6-800 gal/yr depending on the winter. Similar insulation as yours.

Great info. Thank you.

 

[toyoranger94]

I have a very similar size shop in NW Ohio. Propane is $1.69 for customer owned tank and $1.79 if you use their tank. I have natural gas on the house and installed a tank on the barn. A reminder that propane has double the btu per cu ft vs natural gas. In a winter I use about 100 gallons of propane.

I went with an 80k Big Maxx I keep it at 40 degrees when not working and ramp it up when I go to work in it. I had a 50k but it took close to 2 hours to bring temp from 45 to 58. With an 80k can do it in 45 mins and does not shortcycle. DO NOT install a mini split as some have suggested. They work great if you plan to always leave at 60-70 degrees with no adjustment but struggle to bring cold temps to warm temps in a reasonable manner. Also the electricity cost will be significantly noticeable in the winter. I say this from experience. Combine the cold temps of 0F and wind gusts a mini split will be burning electricity and working overtime to barely maintain temp and certainly won’t increase.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Radiant tube heater is an option either LP or NG and they warm everything.

Another advantage is less noise.