Looking for suggestions for heat

[SSCR]

I have a 22' X31' two car garage with a second floor "loft" that I would like to heat. I was orginally thinking of using a 90%+ NG furnace and vent it out the side but found out it would freeze when I was not using it. I do have NG gas line ran out to the corner of the garage in the first photo, excuse the mess. The second photo is the second floor directly above the corner in the first photo. The third photo is the opposite side of the second floor that I was going to put a knee wall in. I don't mind using a 80% furnace but I am unsure how to vent it since my roof is 12 12 and is pretty steep. If I put the furnace on the second floor will it be difficult to heat the first floor and can I enclose it in a knee wall? Any and all ideas are appreciated! Thanks and let me know if you need more photos.

 

[SSCR]

Here is a photo that I was going to hang a length of duct to heat the first floor if I was to put the furnace on the first floor.

 

[Hatman52]

Maybe you're already planning on insulation, but without it you're going to have trouble retaining any sort of heat in the garage in an Illinois winter.

Since you want to heat the second floor, the insulation should be in the rafters, and you'll want to make sure you have soffit vents and a ridge vent to avoid ice dam issues.

If you don't want to heat the first floor, then you're going to need insulation in the floor of the second floor/ceiling of the first floor as well. At that point, you could probably safely and economically heat that small space upstairs with a portable electric heater.

If you want to heat the first floor, then I'd recommend a purpose-built shop/garage natural gas heater, vented and properly installed. Do a search and you'll find a ton of threads on those. People have used home-style furnaces in their garages successfully, but when you read through the threads you'll find a lot of reasons why you will want to go for a purpose-built garage/shop unit.

If you're heating the first floor, the second floor will get pretty warm just due to natural convection, especially if you have an open stairway or attic hatch. If not, you could easily create an open "register" (covered with a grill, of course) in the floor of the upper space which would allow the heat to rise into the second floor.

 

[SSCR]

Yes I will be insulating walls and rafters, after I do electric. I want to heat both floors. Maybe a Reznor or a Hot Dawg might be the ticket, although I would of liked to run ducts to both floors if it was possible and be able to determine which floor I wanted the heat to go to or heat both. Thanks

 

[Hatman52]

If you want to treat each floor as separate "zones", you could insulate both the roof of the second floor and the ceiling of the first floor. That way you could heat each independently. Something like an electric oil-filled radiator should heat that small upper room safely and efficiently. No sense trying to warm up a 700-plus sq. ft. slab of concrete down below just to spend a few hours in the second-floor room.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing.

 

[SSCR]

Thanks again, Hatman, I'm guessing your a Ducati fan (me too). I did a little drawing of what I was thinking of for a traditional home furnace. HVAC guys would this idea be feasable? Otherewise I probably will go with a shop ceiling hung unit. Let me know what you think, suggestions really help me along. Edit- The blue lines represent the return. If this would work I would have to figure on how to vent it, my roof is a 12 12 so I'm guessing it will have to be tall vent.....

 

[SSCR]

Just had a thought, if I could go with a furnace could I buy one that would allow me to hang it horizontal high off the floor like how I tried to draw in the photo? I figure I could vent it on an angle between the joist closer to the center of the garage and than take it straight up close to the peak.

 

[HVAC Phil]

I would put the furnace on the floor as the first pic, run trunk along wall with take-offs and round pipe ran to heat lower and upper loft. You want the return down low, or else the heat will ****. I would use a 90% furnace, just keep the the heat at 45* all the time. I have a 2 stage 92% furnace in my garage, keep the heat at 45* all the time, trap never freezes. You could use an 80%, but unless you like roofs, that pitch isn't any fun to climb. If you go with a 90%, use a 2 stage furnace, won't consume as much gas to maintain the low temp when not in use. Also, when sidewall venting the 90%, make sure the vent totals atleast 5' length.

 

[HVAC Phil]

I personally don't like hanging unit heaters, unless you enjoy the noise. My system is quiet, just like the house. Can't even tell it's on, even when the a/c is running.

 

[Hatman52]

Thanks again, Hatman, I'm guessing your a Ducati fan (me too).

Yep, I've raced Ducatis for a long time -- my avatar is me on my 749R from a couple years back. Saw the Monster in your garage pic.

 

[Hatman52]

I personally don't like hanging unit heaters

Isn't safety the reason for getting the furnace up in the air, since most garage combustible fumes (ie: gasoline) are heavier than air and accumulate near the floor? It's hard to work on motorcycles, particularly older bike with carbs, without spilling fuel. And it's not extremely unusual to come into the garage and find a big pool of gasoline underneath a carb'd bike with a stuck float.

 

[SSCR]

Hatman52 thats a mean lean in that photo! Awesome. Phil, great information, I wanted a high efficency frurnace but didn't want to leave it on all the time (I would only need it on weekends when working on a project) and didn't know how to drain the condensor. Do you mind showing some photos of your install? My neighbor (HVAC guy) is helping me with this and he wanted to just stand it in the corner like you said, as far as pitch (the roof is steep!) I will just try and move the vent as close as possible to the ridge so it dosent have to stand that tall. Thanks

 

[SSCR]

Here a couple of drawings to show where I think the vent should go, maybe?? Also will it be bad to box the vent in with 2X4s so I can drywall over it?

 

[FltEngCPO]

Very interesting thread. I'm building a 30'x40' shop. I planned on a shop type hanging heater for the main shop but am looking for options for HVAC on the 10x11 office, 6x10 bath and 12x16 loft room (fully enclosed). I'm thinking a ductless heat pump/AC unit and supplementing it with a few electric baseboard heat units. I had a house that had electic baseboard heat (not my favorite) that I added the ductless system to and it worked pretty good with the electic being the backup on those real cold days. Still unsure though.... I like the idea of a NG HVAC system and just keeping the temp real low 90% of the time.

Great looking shop and bikes by he way!

 

[paullie]

i have one like this for a "breezeway" that got turned into a laundry room and itworks great and i didn't have to screw with any venting

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

i guess i should point out that i'm talking about heating the upstairs for your project, not the whole shop

 

[rickairmedic]

I agree with Phil as far as placement just remember the bottom of the furnace needs to be at least 18" off the floor by code your neighbor will know this ) . Boxing in the vent wont be a problem as long as you keep a distance of 1"+ from the flue pipe to any combustable materials . The 90%/80% debate wil depend on your usage . I have 4 women inside my house between 16 and 75 . I live in my garage if I am at home . I would say decide for sure how often you plan to be out in the shop or upstairs mancave if you can see yourself out there a couple of hours a night durring the week and as many hours as you can get away with on weekends then the 90%+ will be the way to go just keep it at 40-45* when your not out there . On the other side if you only plan to be out there on weekends then the 80% is the way to go . Remember setting the 90%+ furnace at 40-45 means it doesnt have to work as hard to bring the shop up to 60-65 when you are out there . The 80% will have to go from wherever it lands when off temperature wise all the way up to where you want it when you are out there . My attatched garage is currently 54* and I am in good shape with a sweat shirt on out here . So in the end decide how you plan to use the space and this will give you your decision on which furnace to use . My next shop will have a 95% furnace in it as I will still be out there more than I am in the house .


Rick

 

[dave67fd]

IMO, if you only plan to heat one area at a time I would install a hanging heater (Hot Dawg, Big Maxx etc..) in the garage area and install a in-wall vented heater upstairs.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200362089_200362089

The hanging heaters aren't a problem with combustables as long as they are not in close proximity to the heater or your not engulfing the area with fumes and if so you could go with a dual vented heater.

My Big Maxx is pretty quiet.

 

[SSCR]

Awesome info from everyone thanks! I will post photos as soon as I get something hooked up.

 

[HVAC Phil]

Isn't safety the reason for getting the furnace up in the air, since most garage combustible fumes (ie: gasoline) are heavier than air and accumulate near the floor? It's hard to work on motorcycles, particularly older bike with carbs, without spilling fuel. And it's not extremely unusual to come into the garage and find a big pool of gasoline underneath a carb'd bike with a stuck float.

What i meant was the hot dawg style garage heaters. I dislike them because of the blower being so loud, plus i like air distribution. Those just blow wild, they work fine for those on a budget though.

 

[HVAC Phil]

Hatman52 thats a mean lean in that photo! Awesome. Phil, great information, I wanted a high efficency frurnace but didn't want to leave it on all the time (I would only need it on weekends when working on a project) and didn't know how to drain the condensor. Do you mind showing some photos of your install? My neighbor (HVAC guy) is helping me with this and he wanted to just stand it in the corner like you said, as far as pitch (the roof is steep!) I will just try and move the vent as close as possible to the ridge so it dosent have to stand that tall. Thanks

I'll have to get some pics of mine, it's up in the attic. I preffered this install so it wouldn't be in the way. I framed a "room" around the furnace with insulated walls to prevent the trap from freezing. Condensation for furnace and a/c is removed via a pump.

 

[RPH]

Remember if you start out cold in the winter things will condense moisture. Leaving it warm will help on that. 45 should be good enough.

 

[SSCR]

RPH, good point. I just know I won't have the time to be out there often and hate to heat all winter long (Chicago winters brrrrrr) even though it will be insulated. Also I don't want to deal with having a pump and everything else needed with a high efficency and the condensing water ect... I'm sure I will regret it later, but right now I can't justify it.

 

[SSCR]

On a side note a question for you HVAC guys. How do you recommend running the return? As mentioned before it should be low (no problem) but should I also run a return to the second floor? Or is it okay since the layout is open, to just run a filter off the side of the furnace? Thanks

 

[HVAC Phil]

Myself, i have all my returns tied in thru duct, keeps the noise down. You could put a return up in the loft, but then you would need a return trunk. Honestly, if the furnace is near the stairwell leading to the loft, an open return will work just fine. It is gonna be loud though when the blower is on and the filter will get dirty quicker than if duct were attatched.

 

[SSCR]

My buddy suggested doing the return up to the second floor with a vent cut into it low. I was going to start working on a base ideas to bring the furnace up 18". Any ideas? I was just going to do 2X4 construction with a plywood top covered with sheet metal. On a side note, while looking through Craigslist, I came across a new Reznor 65K BTU hanging unit for cheap. Temptations! I would still need a another heat source upstairs though and the cost would really off set the savings I would of made of the Reznor. Looks like for my situation, Furnace is the way to go. Thanks

 

[curiousB]

Well a full blown furnace and duct system isn't in the same price point as a ceiling mounted vented unit. You probably need to establish a budget before locking down.

I started with a no vent gas unit for a couple years and then got rid of it as it made me sick and created a ton of moisture. I put in a 45k Mr Heater ceiling mount, vented heater and have been happy ever since. My roof is 12/12 pitch. Vent line is vertical and goes behind the knee wall of the bonus room upstairs. I'm in IL but my garage is insulated and there is a warm room above the garage.

You can do a ceiling hanging untis for under $700, a 80 or 90% furnace with ducting, probably >$2k.

 

[SSCR]

Can you post some photos of your garage? I think in order to get the roof clearence I need for the roof vent, it will either have to be closer to the ridge or have a 8' vent straight up to clear the ridge, because of my dormer (like in the pic). The 8' vent out of my roof would look horrible IMO. I can a 65K BTU 80% furncae for under 500 bucks and I'm not sure how much the duct work will be but I doubt it would be over 400 bucks. Luckly my neighbor (tin snip/HVAC guy) is doing the work gratis. So labor won't be an issue. With the duct work I would have vents above my french doors, my double window, and one last one at my garage door, with a couple of elbows going to floor vents in the upstairs. Sounds like we have similar garages, please post some pics! Thanks

 

[SSCR]

CuriousB, just saw your install from your other post. Looks sweet. Is that an attached garage? Do you have another heat source for the upstairs? I have a photo earlier in the thread that shows where my vent will have to go, with the dormer I would need it as high as the ridge in order to get the proper ventelation (suction) I would need. Although if I did go with a Reznor type heater I would just horizontal vent. I do like having the option of multiple vents to distribute the warm air through out the garage and second floor. Also it will be nice when I run just the fan to circulate the air in summer. Lastly if I ever decide on AC I could install a coil in the exsisting furnace. Price whys I actually think the furnace is cheaper.

 

[curiousB]

The room above garage is part of the finished portion of the house. As such it is heated with the house furnace.

The cap on the vent line does not need to be higher than the ridge line as a general rule. Elevation from roof is based on roof pitch. For a 11/12 to 12/12 pitch it has to be 4 feet high. There are other separation rules but this is the basic one if nothing else is nearby. Maybe 4' wouldn't work for you.

No question a full blown furnace with air distribution would be more elegant. It will be 2-3X the cost too. For me I'm on a finite budget so I'd rather put the extra money into a 2 post lift.

 

[SSCR]

Okay, I bought a 54,000 BTU 80% upflow furnace (very cheap) and now I'm trying to get ideas on the mounting. I have included a quick mock up, forgive how rude it is. Anyways, the green represents the b-vent, this is what I think will be tricky. I want to take the b-vent straight up and than run it on an angle between the rafters to get it close to the center of the garage and than run it straight up so it will be near the ridge like I tried to illustrate earlier in this thread. Do you guys see any issue with this? I have been planning on drywalling and insulating the ceiling on the first floor, should I be aware of any precautions?

The red box represents the base I plan to sit the furnace. I put it at 18" inches so to get it off the ground for code and fume regulations. I was planning on framing it in 2'X4" with an OSB top and sheet metal on that. Any suggestions or opinions?

The grey is the "heat" vent which will have 2 or 3 vents on the first floor and some elbows to 3 floor vents on the second floor. Any suggestions if this will be adequate/okay?

The blue represents the return, I plan on having a good size vent cut into that about 5 feet off the floor and than a floor vent on the second floor. Cool?

Let me know if I am way off base on any of this, I do have a neighbor that is a HVAC guy that is helping me out but I would like to get my ducks in a row before he comes over to install. I would appreciate all opinoins, I know some of you guys have a lot of experience and insight on this, I'm looking at you HVAC Phil and Rickairmedic. Thanks-

 

[jhon.jacob80]

Comenzado en 1920 y completado en 1927, el túnel está nombrado por Clifford Milburn Holland (1883-1924), ingeniero jefe del proyecto, quien falleció antes de que se completara. Diseñador renombrado de túneles Ole Singstad completó la obra de Holland. El túnel es uno de los primeros ejemplos de un diseño ventilado, teniendo ventiladores de 24 metros de diámetro ingresando aire a una serie de conductos y retirándolo de otra serie. La ventilación fue requerida debido a la llegada del automóvil y los gases de escape asociados con ellos.[4]

El túnel consta de un par de tubos, cada uno proveyendo dos carriles con unos 6 metros de anchura de calzada y 3,8 metros de espacio vertical. El tubo norte tiene una longitud de 2.608 metros de punta a punta, mientras el tubo sur es levemente más corto con una longitud de 2.551 metros. Ambos tubos están situados en el cimiento debajo del río, con el punto más bajo de la carretera a aproximadamente 28 metros por debajo de marea alta promedia. Una estación de peaje munida del sistema de cobro electrónico de peajes E-ZPass (haciéndose disponible por primera vez en octubre de 1997) se encuentra en el lado de Nueva Jersey del túnel.[5] A partir del 2008, el peaje en efectivo para paso de Nueva Jersey a Nueva York es de U$S 8 para automóviles y U$S 7 para motocicletas (no hay peaje rumbo a Nueva Jersey). Vehículos dotados de un dispositivo E-ZPass reciben un descuento fuera del horario pico (punta) de U$S 6 para automóviles y U$S 5 para motocicletas.[6

 

[HVAC Phil]

I would run an 18x8 trunkline off of furnace, reducing to 14x8 after you pick up 3 heat runs off the main trunk. I would also cut 2 4x10 wall registers into bottom of trunkline(giving you a total of 8 runs).

As far as return, build the box to set it on. I would cut a 14x14 return grill in the front side of box, 8x30 in side of box. Then, run an 8" pipe up for the upstairs return(tapping into box you made as well. Remove bottom panel on furnace, put filter inside furnace.

 

[SSCR]

Thanks Phil, still a little confused but will research what you are saying.

My buddy was just going to run a round trunk down the length of the garage with 2 maybe 3 vents cut into it to heat the first floor. Off the same trunk he was going to run 3 boots/ elbows off it between the ceiling joist for floor vents (second floor). I assume I would open and close the louvered vents to determine where I want the heat to go i.e. downstairs, upstairs, or both floors. That would be a total of 5 or 6 vents cut into it.

I know you guys know your stuff, so I will look into. Maybe you could lay it out a little easier for a knuckle head like me?

 

[SSCR]

Comenzado en 1920 y completado en 1927, el túnel está nombrado por Clifford Milburn Holland (1883-1924), ingeniero jefe del proyecto, quien falleció antes de que se completara. Diseñador renombrado de túneles Ole Singstad completó la obra de Holland. El túnel es uno de los primeros ejemplos de un diseño ventilado, teniendo ventiladores de 24 metros de diámetro ingresando aire a una serie de conductos y retirándolo de otra serie. La ventilación fue requerida debido a la llegada del automóvil y los gases de escape asociados con ellos.[4]

El túnel consta de un par de tubos, cada uno proveyendo dos carriles con unos 6 metros de anchura de calzada y 3,8 metros de espacio vertical. El tubo norte tiene una longitud de 2.608 metros de punta a punta, mientras el tubo sur es levemente más corto con una longitud de 2.551 metros. Ambos tubos están situados en el cimiento debajo del río, con el punto más bajo de la carretera a aproximadamente 28 metros por debajo de marea alta promedia. Una estación de peaje munida del sistema de cobro electrónico de peajes E-ZPass (haciéndose disponible por primera vez en octubre de 1997) se encuentra en el lado de Nueva Jersey del túnel.[5] A partir del 2008, el peaje en efectivo para paso de Nueva Jersey a Nueva York es de U$S 8 para automóviles y U$S 7 para motocicletas (no hay peaje rumbo a Nueva Jersey). Vehículos dotados de un dispositivo E-ZPass reciben un descuento fuera del horario pico (punta) de U$S 6 para automóviles y U$S 5 para motocicletas.[6

What??? I speak a little spanish and this is talking about a tunnel under a river or something???? I guess spam???

 

[HVAC Phil]

Thanks Phil, still a little confused but will research what you are saying.

My buddy was just going to run a round trunk down the length of the garage with 2 maybe 3 vents cut into it to heat the first floor. Off the same trunk he was going to run 3 boots/ elbows off it between the ceiling joist for floor vents (second floor). I assume I would open and close the louvered vents to determine where I want the heat to go i.e. downstairs, upstairs, or both floors. That would be a total of 5 or 6 vents cut into it.

I know you guys know your stuff, so I will look into. Maybe you could lay it out a little easier for a knuckle head like me?

If you are going to run a round trunk, splitting off of it for heast runs, it will have to be large, around 14" to start. You must run the round pipe all the way to the 2nd floor, you just can't use the joist space as a "chase" for a heat run. It will dry the wood severly, your HVAC buddy should know this.

Remember, you must get rid of the air aswell as bringing enough return air, or you will damage the heat exhanger. Running a 6" trunk with vents cut in it is NOT a proper trunkline, it is still only ONE 6" run, no matter how many vents are cut in it.

 

[Andrewwe]

Duct system is perfect for heating but there is many other method that other people share with you but i like this is better then other because it is affordable and there are many companies that provide the services of duct cleaning and maintenance but the choice is your.

 

[Motofixxer]

I would plan on getting the furnace as high as possible so you could store things under it etc, try to use that space. I would make a run upstairs, obviously with a return too. You could always put a damper in the upstairs run also and just plan on the furnace for heat. Another advantage to a regular furnace is the option you have to install A/C easily. If your wiring I would run the wiring with the plan of A/C that way its all ready. Also for the furnace filter many guys recommend using a good filter like the Aprilaire units with a big cartridge type. Especially if your gonna have an A coil for A/C.

If you want to get fancy you could run a Tstat up there too with a bypass main level tstat switch to control the temp from up there. Could always use a little oil filled radiator heater up there but if your running duct, might as well put it in.

Once you get everything insulated, it really won't take much at all to heat it. I would strongly suggest with your rafters to use spray foam, to get the best R value for the space. Most of the winter my shop averages 40 or above except when it's down around 0 or lower for long lengths of time. Then it will drop to high 20's maybe. Obviously depends also if your opening and closing the doors a lot too. So the High Efficiency isn't really much of a big deal to keep it from freezing. The drain can be an issue if run outside, to keep from freezing. Just set the Tstat at 40ish and don't worry about it.

 

[SSCR]

Well I guess I was confused, my duct will all be square and hung tight to the rafters. I was hoping for a little of the "industrial" look with spiral round but I guess that would be too expensive and not really effective. I'm thinking I will box it in and drywall around it, sort of a soffet look on the one side of the garage.