loop holes for garage height/county code ideas?

[yeldogt]

is your lot large enough to sub divide? you can have the section around your house zoned Residential and the rest of the property zoned Agricultural. Check your local codes to see if buildings zoned Agricultural have different standards. My father was able to build a pole barn without permits and much taller than his house because of this. Added bonus, it also lowers property taxes

This will often lower the property value .. and it's typically one time.

I'm currently rehabbing a property that I have owned for many years -- currently a vacation .. but, will be my main residence in the future. Because of the structure and age it was zoned commercial -- it's from the 1870's. To get a variance to enlarge the outbuilding (800sf to 1700sf) quite a few years ago I agreed to give up the commercial designation ... it's in an area with B&B's ... so the "commercial" is a valuable part of any property.

My above story is typical. No, you can't do that. You need a variance -- never get one. Nope -- not to code. Forget it - Too big of a building. What, I'm sure you are covering too much of the lot. How much soil do you have to move? Did you do a soil disturbance permits? I think you will need stormwater management .. and a sone pit. All of this is not accurate -- but how much will it cost to prove you are correct. My lawyer said to me .... did you know your property is commercial? (I did not) .... I bet they would love to get rid of that designation. Guess what ... they did. Magically -- I needed nothing and quickly (very) built the addition. This is what's so annoying -- it based on a couple people agreeing and being on your side of the code book.

 

[Bad00SS]

Does not sound like a very nice looking solution ..........

Did whoever you spoke to from the county give you any pointers as to someone who has done this? And is he the person that will approve both building this "cap" and agreeing it will satisfy the code as he is reading it for your new building? Trust me, it matters.

Did you ask about a variance?

Your contractor obviously does not know or understand -- so I would be careful taking any advise from him.

The county said any addition, a bedroom, a look out room, expanding the roof upward for more attic space would all work. They have seen people add a storage room above a garage before.

the variance is $1,000 and takes 4 months to process. She asked why I need the building so tall and an auto lift used for a racing hobby is a weak case against the board who will approve it. she said don't get your hopes up if you pay $1,000 and lose.


My contractor spoke directly to the inspector who will come to my area to do the inspecting. what he told me is straight from the inspectors mouth. it doesn't get anymore clear than that.

 

[Toomanytools?]

Well looks like you may have found the loop hole. Have a picture of your house?
Here is a cupola place just for reference.
http://www.valleyforgecupolas.com/

 

[Radix2]

Okay here it is... All the answers I have been looking for. My contractor called me then right after the county building inspector called. Here's how the code applies my situation. Both had similar things to say.


In my county and township area a chimney is not even considered a part of the structure to measure by. Even though you may think it is a mechanical structure it is not. They are more referring to elevators for barns and things that have pulleys above the roof. random things like that. A cheap 24" by 24" cupola with louvered vents on it and those tin or copper roofs are more decorative and does not count. Now if you build a cupola along the lines of something bigger and it has a shingled roof matching the house it is now part of your structure. They recommended a "look out room" above my existing garage. Maybe 3ft tall walls and a 4/12 pitch shingled roof to match the house. match the siding on it to the house. put some windows in. maybe something that is 4-5 feet wide. it does not have to be accessible or functional as a room but it needs to be part of the house. So what I gather is it needs siding, a shingled roof and possible windows and it is part of the house. So I may build a 48" x 48" x 36" tall box out of plywood and side it with my siding to match then put a window in the front and build a roof on top of it a the same pitch as my house and shingle it with the left over shingles I have in my garage. it would be about 5 feet tall overall and would do the trick. I feel this is my only option.

Build it, but just on top of your shingles. Then toss it when you are done...

 

[yeldogt]

The county said any addition, a bedroom, a look out room, expanding the roof upward for more attic space would all work. They have seen people add a storage room above a garage before.

the variance is $1,000 and takes 4 months to process. She asked why I need the building so tall and an auto lift used for a racing hobby is a weak case against the board who will approve it. she said don't get your hopes up if you pay $1,000 and lose.


My contractor spoke directly to the inspector who will come to my area to do the inspecting. what he told me is straight from the inspectors mouth. it doesn't get anymore clear than that.

I would want to have spoken directly to the person .. or had my architect.

They don't allow a copula .. but, will allow a 4' one? Is there a square foot limit ? So what do they do? come out and measure once you are done .. and then approve your plans. Do you have plans?

 

[ddurrett896]

an auto lift used for a racing hobby is a weak case against the board who will approve it. she said don't get your hopes up if you pay $1,000 and lose.

I would steer away from that. A hobby shop with loud cars and tools will likely not fly.

The height problem is because it's detached. Is there any way to attached it to the house? The only watch here, at least where I live, is that detached structures have smaller setbacks than the main structure.

 

[Bad00SS]

I would want to have spoken directly to the person .. or had my architect.

They don't allow a copula .. but, will allow a 4' one? Is there a square foot limit ? So what do they do? come out and measure once you are done .. and then approve your plans. Do you have plans?

From what I know a little decorative 24" tin cupola that home depot sells for $179 you can just screw it down in 5 mins is what they don't want. They want it to have shingles. possibly siding and a window. that's the 3 main things I seen emphasis on. They will not get to see my plans or know my address until I am completed with this. It was highly advised by every contractor do not let them see the house or know where the house is before you build this. they will question everything about what you just built. not to mention I never get building permits for small jobs. this thing will be complete long before the garage plans are submitted to the county for the permits in spring.

 

[Bad00SS]

I would steer away from that. A hobby shop with loud cars and tools will likely not fly.

The height problem is because it's detached. Is there any way to attached it to the house? The only watch here, at least where I live, is that detached structures have smaller setbacks than the main structure.

read above. the quotes come in anywhere from $10,000-$12,000 to do the same garage but attached. many new codes would apply.

 

[yeldogt]

From what I know a little decorative 24" tin cupola that home depot sells for $179 you can just screw it down in 5 mins is what they don't want. They want it to have shingles. possibly siding and a window. that's the 3 main things I seen emphasis on. They will not get to see my plans or know my address until I am completed with this. It was highly advised by every contractor do not let them see the house or know where the house is before you build this. they will question everything about what you just built. not to mention I never get building permits for small jobs. this thing will be complete long before the garage plans are submitted to the county for the permits in spring.

Well good luck .... I would need a permit to build the roof addition to get the permit in any place I have lived. So, none this makes sense.

 

[gemniii]

<snip>
91-017
BUILDING HEIGHT
The vertical distance measured from grade adjacent to the front door entrance to the highest point of the roof or mechanical fixtures, inclusive of architectural appurtenances.

https://rockfordil.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Zoning-Ordinance-Amendments-03-31-17.pdf

https://rockfordil.gov/zoning-ordinance-amendments-03-31-17/

Pictures would really help BUT
Can you lower your front grade 2'3"?

<snip> I am at 14 feet 4 inches. The plans for the new garage with 12 foot walls comes out to 16 feet 6inches to the peak. <snip>

Or flatten your roof slightly AND lower your front grade.

I've several houses where the front grade is a few feet below the living room floor.

If not don't just build a "box" on top, build an "observatory"
http://www.airplanesandrockets.com/astronomy/observatories/telescope-sky-official-observatory-construction-page.htm

Or in other words put a Rubbermaid Slide Lid shed on your house with the telescope to be installed at a later date.

 

[wssix99]

The flatter roof is a no go with how much snow we get. I have seen at times 36" of snow on my house.

I live in the same place as you do and have a flat, 30' span, 100psf roof. We were able to get this in with wood trusses of just 2' in depth.

My roof is built to have the snow, solar panels, and a deck on it, so it would be overbuilt for what you need. If you go with steel trusses, you can get get even shallower.

I feel this is my only option.

It sounds like you may be putting some artificial constraints on yourself. Contractors and Inspectors are also not the experts. The municipality engineers and architects work out the deal you are seeking.

You have lots of options and your local architects eat this stuff for lunch and have the real relationships to make it happen. You'll need one at some point, anyway. So why not hire one now? They can knock this out for you with little problem.

 

[ddurrett896]

read above. the quotes come in anywhere from $10,000-$12,000 to do the same garage but attached. many new codes would apply.

That doesn’t make sense. A garage is a garage, attached or detached. The only code I can possibly see is you need sheet rock between house and garage.

 

[850xpeps]

That doesn’t make sense. A garage is a garage, attached or detached. The only code I can possibly see is you need sheet rock between house and garage.

Could need piles and grade beams as opposed to floating slab.

 

[MushCreek]

This is Garage Journal. Just build telescoping walls on the garage, and a mechanism so it goes up and down with the lift. If I was filthy rich I'd do it just to screw with them.

 

[Bad00SS]

Well good luck .... I would need a permit to build the roof addition to get the permit in any place I have lived. So, none this makes sense.

My father has built whole garages and bedroom additions off the side of a house with no permits. its weather you neighbors turn you in or not lol. If your cool with the neighbors your fine. I would build this whole shop without a permit and just build it as tall as I want if I was doing it myself. I don't want to tackle a job this large myself. the contractor has to get a permit because he is a legitimate business.

 

[Bad00SS]

That doesn’t make sense. A garage is a garage, attached or detached. The only code I can possibly see is you need sheet rock between house and garage.

$9,000 was in extra concrete because of the ridiculously massive footings required by code. the other $3,000 was tying into the existing roof.

 

[Bad00SS]

UPDATE: The building code inspector my contractor knows said they really are putting emphasis on " grade to peak" and "Highest point of roof" in the wording in the paragraph about building height. That's part of why a big box or a column like a chimney isn't counted. there is no peak. there is no "roof" on a chimney. He said if I build the cupola it needs to have an obvious peak and be obvious it has its own roof. I sent this photo over and it was just approved. he said there should be no issue at all with this if I put shingles on it.

So I got one for about $325 shipped. It comes a little under 3 feet by 3 feet and I belive it was 32" tall but I will build a base that matches my roof pitch that I will attach to the bottom and add a few more inches. I figure 40" tall is plenty to be well over what I need. I do have the option of removing this a few years down the road if I don't like how it looks. the inspections and everything will be long over with and should be no issue.

 

[ddurrett896]

$9,000 was in extra concrete because of the ridiculously massive footings required by code. the other $3,000 was tying into the existing roof.

Still doesn’t makes sense.

A 20x25 detached is 4 walls with 90’ of footer
A 20x25 attaches is 3 walls with 65’ or 70’ of footer

Less footer - less concrete - less $. The roof tie it expense makes sense, however could come from the concrete you saved.

None the less, looks like your problem is solved.

 

[yeldogt]

UPDATE: The building code inspector my contractor knows said they really are putting emphasis on " grade to peak" and "Highest point of roof" in the wording in the paragraph about building height. That's part of why a big box or a column like a chimney isn't counted. there is no peak. there is no "roof" on a chimney. He said if I build the cupola it needs to have an obvious peak and be obvious it has its own roof. I sent this photo over and it was just approved. he said there should be no issue at all with this if I put shingles on it.

So I got one for about $325 shipped. It comes a little under 3 feet by 3 feet and I belive it was 32" tall but I will build a base that matches my roof pitch that I will attach to the bottom and add a few more inches. I figure 40" tall is plenty to be well over what I need. I do have the option of removing this a few years down the road if I don't like how it looks. the inspections and everything will be long over with and should be no issue.

Like I said ... this would never fly around me. Both in permitting and your solution.

 

[bczygan]

Still doesn’t makes sense.

A 20x25 detached is 4 walls with 90’ of footer
A 20x25 attaches is 3 walls with 65’ or 70’ of footer

Less footer - less concrete - less $. The roof tie it expense makes sense, however could come from the concrete you saved.

None the less, looks like your problem is solved.

The difference can be in the type of footing.

The thinking about attached garages, is that it could have living space added on top, thus requiring bigger footings.

Numerous times I have been unable to add living space over a garage because the footings were inadequate.

Bill

 

[Falcon67]

The pole barn across the street should be sufficient for the variance request. You cannot ask for a variance without some "hardship". Meaning basically that if other people got to do it (at least one) then you should have the same privilege. You are "harmed" by not having the same privilege as your neighbor and you are seeking "relief". Nothing about "grandfather", etc. That guy got one, I want one too - you let him keep it, I should have the same right. If you are the only one - or the first one - asking for a deviation from standard requirements - then tough, too bad for you as there is no "relief" to be granted. Look around for more neighbors with larger structures. The more you find, the better your case. The first car port on the street is a big fight, the rest get rubber stamped. That's how it typically works.

And typically - zoning can make a recommendation, even a no. If it's no then go before the council with the same argument - that guy across the road has a big barn and I'm asking for a measly 24". Council can override zoning board.

Good luck.

 

[Toomanytools?]

Well looks like about $500 bucks for a cupola and problem solved, I would make sure you have your approval in writing so when done it doesn't come back to haunt you.

 

[jetnow1]

I have found that often the person answering the phone does not really know the specifics, or will not admit to knowing them. When I was trying to find out exactly where
the town measured the midpoint of the rafter neither the clerk at the zoning desk or even the head building inspector could/would answer me, I had to catch the zoning officer who was rarely in the office. I finally found my answer by reading the town zoning rules, found a drawing that showed what I needed. Printed a copy of that, put it with my application for a building permit, and kept a copy.

 

[Bad00SS]

Update: The cupola showed up and I took some measurements. I needed about 6" taller to be equal to the height of the new building. I decided to make a base for it to cut the roof pitch into. It is now over 6" taller than the new building will be so there are zero issues if they measure. Just finished putting the shingles on that match my existing roof and painting it the color of my siding. The contractor and building inspector agree there is zero issues. This thing is pretty big and it has actual shingles on the roof. This is 100% part of the structure once bolted down and THE highest point of the roof by code. Once my tax return comes I will drop off the down payment money and the permits will be pulled. Shooting for april 1st pouring concrete. I'll make a post once construction starts on the build.


I have it sitting stacked up in a mock up to see how it stands. it is in 4 pieces so its easy to carry on the roof before screwing together.

So total I have $425 with the cupola, building the base and shingles. $425 to save me $11,000-$13,000 is well worth it. As others have said If I don't like the look of it, in a year or 2 I will rip this thing off my roof. it wont matter at that point.


.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Seems like a pretty good deal for $425.

 

[bczygan]

Perfect solution!

Bill

 

[wssix99]

The contractor and building inspector agree there is zero issues.

Neither of these people have anything to do with your zoning approval. Who's going to do the drawings for your permit? That's the person who will need to back all of this up. (And annotate/stamp the height of your house on the zoning application.)

If I don't like the look of it, in a year or 2 I will rip this thing off my roof. it wont matter at that point.

You don't even need to firmly attach it. Just set it up there for your zoning drawings, then you can take it down. Then, you can put it back up for your final inspection on the garage, and then take it back down. Keep it in a closet for the future if the neighbors ever complain. (Then you can permanently re-attach it.) It will probably weather a lot better in a closet than up on your roof.

 

[Stuart in MN]

That would take a pretty big closet.

 

[Bad00SS]

Neither of these people have anything to do with your zoning approval. Who's going to do the drawings for your permit? That's the person who will need to back all of this up. (And annotate/stamp the height of your house on the zoning application.)

All i know is the drawings that the contractor did will be brought downtown. i told him to take care of everything i just want to go to work every day and come home to the garage finished after a month. its 100% his deal. there are 3 building inspectors in our county that come out before construction if there are any questions about the property. then they come back right before the concrete pour to make sure thats to code then they come back for a final when its completed. My contractor is good friends with 1 of the 3 inspectors. the one inspector says he will aprove it every step of the way if they put him on job when we start. as far as zoning, i took care of all the preliminary stuff a month ago. I talked to a guy at the building and zoning office and told him the dimensions and where we are putting it and he gave me all the rules of how far from the road, how far from the lot lines, i had told him my house was already 17ft tall (knowing i would build something like this) so he said 16'-6" building is no issue. we looked at where my septic tank field lines were and my area i picked to place this building was aproved for being far enough away from those. he said everything is good to go as long as i build it in the exact location exactly we talked about. Now if they send a zoning guy here and a building inspector in person that wouldnt be normal for how they do things here. but if that happens i comply with every rule of zoning and locaion of the building so i dont care.

 

[wssix99]

I talked to a guy at the building and zoning office and told him the dimensions and where we are putting it and he gave me all the rules of how far from the road, how far from the lot lines, i had told him my house was already 17ft tall (knowing i would build something like this) so he said 16'-6" building is no issue.

This is the important conversation and great that you had it. (If they aren't the person to do the zoning approval, they should know the person who is.) If your contractor has any issues with the things you are having him handle, you can go back to this person and revisit your conversation.

If you are in Rockford proper, (a City) I would expect this type of thing to be much more strict than if you are outside the City limits.

 

[Bad00SS]

This is the important conversation and great that you had it. (If they aren't the person to do the zoning approval, they should know the person who is.) If your contractor has any issues with the things you are having him handle, you can go back to this person and revisit your conversation.

If you are in Rockford proper, (a City) I would expect this type of thing to be much more strict than if you are outside the City limits.

Its cherry valley township/ Winnebago county. Just corn fields out here. The rules are usually not very strict.

 

[acer66]

All i know is the drawings that the contractor did will be brought downtown. i told him to take care of everything i just want to go to work every day and come home to the garage finished after a month. its 100% his deal. there are 3 building inspectors in our county that come out before construction if there are any questions about the property. then they come back right before the concrete pour to make sure thats to code then they come back for a final when its completed. My contractor is good friends with 1 of the 3 inspectors. the one inspector says he will aprove it every step of the way if they put him on job when we start. as far as zoning, i took care of all the preliminary stuff a month ago. I talked to a guy at the building and zoning office and told him the dimensions and where we are putting it and he gave me all the rules of how far from the road, how far from the lot lines, i had told him my house was already 17ft tall (knowing i would build something like this) so he said 16'-6" building is no issue. we looked at where my septic tank field lines were and my area i picked to place this building was aproved for being far enough away from those. he said everything is good to go as long as i build it in the exact location exactly we talked about. Now if they send a zoning guy here and a building inspector in person that wouldnt be normal for how they do things here. but if that happens i comply with every rule of zoning and locaion of the building so i dont care.

Cool and since I have a similar project in mind, only the height of the building matters, it does not matter if the garage sits on a higher part of the property?

Thank you

 

[Bad00SS]

Cool and since I have a similar project in mind, only the height of the building matters, it does not matter if the garage sits on a higher part of the property?

Thank you

The building code reads " average grade of main dwelling to highest peak of roof" or something like that. They will take the highest to lowest part of the grade from one end of your house to the other and average it. that will be considered the ground point you measure up from. If your on a hill and your garage is on a higher part I would guess they would measure the garage from its average grade right at the garage to the peak of the garage roof. My house is on almost perfectly flat ground so I didn't run into this so i'm not sure.

 

[rsanter]

Also look at the terms of your insurance.
Typically with homeowners insurance any ‘out buildings’ are only covered by 10% the amount of the policy limits.
An attached structure will full coverage

Might factor in

 

[acer66]

The building code reads " average grade of main dwelling to highest peak of roof" or something like that. They will take the highest to lowest part of the grade from one end of your house to the other and average it. that will be considered the ground point you measure up from. If your on a hill and your garage is on a higher part I would guess they would measure the garage from its average grade right at the garage to the peak of the garage roof. My house is on almost perfectly flat ground so I didn't run into this so i'm not sure.

Thank you.

 

[Bad00SS]

Update: Filed for a building permit Monday. Submitted the plans and everything was approved they just have to send a guy out to verify the well and septic is a safe distance from the building site like I said it was. We should be good to go by Monday. Only issue holding us back is they just posted the roads for temporary weight limits for spring on March 7th. This will last 4 weeks on average so we cant get dump trucks or concrete in here until atleast April 4th. possibly few weeks after that.

Here's the Coupla mounted up on the roof.

 

[Bad00SS]

Another update... The building is now complete. I have electric and natural gas ran out there and a 2 post lift installed and have been working out of it for a few weeks. It passed all inspections with flying colors. It's a big weight lifted off my shoulders that everything got approved and was passed. This was a long process but I can finally enjoy my new garage.

You can see the part of the cupola on the left side of the roof, it ended up all said and done about 2" taller than the peak on the garage. My contractor got up there with a laser or something and said its damn close. We got lucky. lol

 

[driftpin]

Looks great, congratulations.

 

[acer66]

Great and have fun.

 

[Higgins]

We ran into a similar problem on a summer house up in MI when we were kids. Dad installed a Large Couplia (i.e. Widows Walk) A widow's walk, also known as a widow's watch or roofwalk, is a railed rooftop platform often with a small enclosed cupola frequently found on 19th-century North American coastal houses.

Ours didn't had an outside rail around it. However, from the 2nd floor landing, there was a small stairs that went up into the Widows Walk. Had small windows that could be opened for ventilation. Great for watching lightning storms !!!

Was a neat addition to the house !!!