Losing the fundamentals

[londonsteve]

I have just spent a week with my nephew to see if I wanted to invest in his business, now he is a great plumber/heating engineer with every qualfication available but I could not believe how much of his time is run by gadgets!!
I have just turned fifty and I am been lucky enough to be retired and enjoying it. I just cannot believe that people put so much faith in gadgets. on a typical work day with my nephew he starts the day organising his appointments with his ipad and printing his service sheets off on a mobile airprinter Get a pad and pencil, then its organising his traveling by inputing the addresses into the sat nav, a very handy tool but when you rely on these you lose the knowledge of the area, Get a map!. then onto the job. for a broken boiler he plugs in his laptop and fault finds the problem. the computer invariably brings up choice of two faults and 2 or 3 replacement parts needed. Get a multi meter and check components!.
This is happening everywhere from servicing my car (warning light on my car ford want $180 to plug in their analyzer to tell me the fault then charge to fix it)
The skill of the professional tradesmen is lessening everyday, sure gadgets have their place but they are reducing people using their hard earned knowledge.

 

[rsanter]

I have the same complaints, I used to have a automotive shop and was amazed at how dependent the newer mechanics rely on plugging into an OBD port

Bob

 

[darkk]

The price of progress...it's a computerized world we live in now. Fortunately I was able to change with the rest of the world. If you two are having difficulty adapting, you will fall by the wayside as it were...

edited: I suppose I should have mentioned that I repaired computer systems and very specialized electronics printing/encoding equipment for a living before retiring 2 yrs ago

 

[tolken4]

Yah, that is what I told those Egyptians when I saw their lazy asses using a measuring wheel to build the pyramids. I mean seriously, just walk it out and guestamate man.

And don't even get me started on their damn pulleys and levers!!!

I see both sides. In a sense you are right. Common sense trouble shooting is being lost. Please take the above response as a loving jab.

 

[willymakeit]

It is common now. A lot of the newer people on building site cant or wont use/remember rules of thumb. CIP 3/4/5 or any multiple of these to square a building. I will admit to using a rise/run calculator for rafters but I still know how to use a framing square.
Most of this boggles their mind, but computers boggle mine.
I till have a fall back when the batteries go dead or the power is out.

 

[Stuey]

Let's say he needs to charge $145.87 for a job and needs to figure out the tax. Should he whip out a pad and paper to calculate the tax or VAT? Would you? No, you'd whip out a calculator if available.

There's nothing wrong with using technology if it makes a job easier or quicker. It's of course best if one understands things on a fundamental level and has the skills to work without gadgets.

 

[londonsteve]

I get it!! I use gadgets but they are not always the fastest or cheapest solutions. it is the skills that are being lost

 

[Bad Hammer]

I actually agree with the sentiment of the first two posts.
No one has implied that they were having difficulty adapting.
Nor did they suggest they didn't use the latest technologies either.
But I believe far too many mechanics do depend on their "gadgets" to get through their day.
Very few techs nowadays have any true troubleshooting skills.
I was a service electrician for 30 years, and I kept up with the latest technology as it developed.
They are great time savers, and therefore money makers.
But I could also get the problem solved without it if need be.
I couldn't say the same for a lot of the guys I have worked with.
And I think that is the point londonsteve and rsanter were trying to make.

 

[wildhorsehans]

I had an issue with my old 97 Dodge where if you took your foot off the gas pedal, it would just shut off. Took it to the dealer and watched the mech bring it into the shop. It stalled on him 3 times. About 30 minutes later out comes the service guy and honest to God he says to me there is nothing wrong with my truck. The computer says everything is fine!

 

[mayday0017]

When I pull a customer car into my shop to work on it the VERY first thing I do is plug in a scanner and pull all codes on the car. I even take photographs of the codes and the VIN# pulled by the scanner. At the end of the job when I am writing up the paperwork on the computer I upload the photographs into the customer folder.

Why?
Because it lets me know if the computer see's any errors or has seen any so it points me in the right direction. Also, by doing this I know what codes were stored in the computer so if the customer comes back with a CEL when I read the codes I am able to say "This code was being thrown before I touched it" and have documented proof of such. Code readers can help CYA, Keep you from chasing problems you didn't cause after work preformed, and point you in the right direction to find problems.

Personal opinion?
Not using a code reader on modern cars as first line of trouble shooting is foolish, it tells you EXACTLY what problems the car has been seeing any other way is just an educated guess. But it is up to the tech to use his knowlege and experiance to understand what could be causing the code, because sometimes just because a code is thrown for a sensor doesn't mean the sensor is bad something else can cause it to throw a code.

Oh and of course we all know no codes doesn't mean no problems

 

[csp]

It's of course best if one understands things on a fundamental level and has the skills to work without gadgets.

That's the problem. My stepson can't find his way anywhere without his stupid iPhone. He doesn't know north from south, can't read a street sign, and can't remember how to get to a place he's been to on several occassions.

It's a wonder he can wipe his **** if he takes a **** in the dark.

 

[mercury26]

That's the problem. My stepson can't find his way anywhere without his stupid iPhone. He doesn't know north from south, can't read a street sign, and can't remember how to get to a place he's been to on several occassions.

It's a wonder he can wipe his **** if he takes a **** in the dark.

Sounds like a parenting issue.

 

[holt2ton]

Being a Tool & Die Maker I get really sad when I get a new kid in the shop and you have him go over and do something on a Bridgeport and they look at you like, "Where is the start button?" or even better.."You really expect me to actually crank those handles?!?!"

 

[JimVonBaden]

Let's say he needs to charge $145.87 for a job and needs to figure out the tax. Should he whip out a pad and paper to calculate the tax or VAT? Would you? No, you'd whip out a calculator if available.

There's nothing wrong with using technology if it makes a job easier or quicker. It's of course best if one understands things on a fundamental level and has the skills to work without gadgets.

That's the way I look at it.

I am 48 and caught the beginning of the computer age while I was still fairly young. I am constantly amazed at how much more productive "proper" use of technology can help a person/company to be!

Jim

 

[Stuart in MN]

sure gadgets have their place but they are reducing people using their hard earned knowledge.

In the old days you'd have to go down to the corner pub to complain to your friends about him, now you can do it on your computer.

 

[csp]

Sounds like a parenting issue.

It absolutely is. Unforturnately, the kid spends most of his time with his piss poor excuse for a dad. If my wife and I had half the influence and time with him that his a dad has, it wouldn't be. I'd smash that stupid babysitter phone into a million pieces for starters.

 

[londonsteve]

It's knowledge that makes the man!!. That is why London Black Taxi drivers are the best in the world because they have to learn every road, street, avenue, hospital and landmark in London and the quickest route between them.
Unless you understand something you will never be a master of it.

 

[MetalMangler]

I can see both sides of things... Most electronic/computer devices are so complex that troubleshooting without a computer/reader is almost impossible, and they do make things easier in the majority of cases... However too much dependence on those items is not a good thing either. I had a water heater the tech had been trying to fix multiple times. Last time he was trying to tell me I needed a new circuit board. Luckily I had the tech manual, and the manufacturer was great at documenting everything... Normal cycle steps, what kicks on in what order, timings, etc. I could tell that everything was kicking off at the specified times, all controlled by the circuit board... Hence I'm going to assume it's not the problem yet. They included specs for output pressure from the internal fuel pump, put a pressure gauge on it and Ta-DA! Low pressure.

The tools help, but the most important one is the grey one behind the eyeballs. With the proper training of that one, the tools are helpful but usually not necessary.

MM

 

[Stuey]

Unless you understand something you will never be a master of it.

A very profound, agreeable, and widely applicable statement.

 

[meburdick]

I get it!! I use gadgets but they are not always the fastest or cheapest solutions. it is the skills that are being lost

The reason that skills are "lost" is because skills are no longer valued. Every consumer wants things for less money. The only way to get there is to use less-skilled workers to build those items. When you take the skills away from the works, they are devalued.

If skills are no longer of any true value in the open market, why would anyone want to spend their time obtaining them?

Don't get me wrong - I'm with you on this. It's all part of the "Dumbing down of America".

 

[Richard D]

I'm on a lot of forums, and always get a chuckle when someone uses their computer to complain about computers! I'mm 44 and use AutoCAD every day. Did manual drafting in Jr. and High School. The head of the drafting dept at the local college had to talk me into taking CAD classes. If I never pick up a pencil and T square again it will be too soon! I still can though, if need be.

 

[RKA]

I completely agree with the spirit of your post. I get very suspicious anytime I visit a doctor, dealer, or anywhere else where it seems people overly rely on technology for an answer. It's a tool and a necessary one in this age, but it doesn't preclude the use of your brain.

I'm dealing with an issue with my dog and I've been hesitant to bring him to a specialist because I know it will be test after test after test = $$$. Last week I finally gave in. We tried every option and tests were the next answer. Vet runs an xray, nothing. Vet wants to scope him, I pass out from the estimate and give her the go ahead when I come to. When it's done she quickly glosses over the reason I brought him there in the first place because they found something else more concerning. I asked about the correlation between the scope observations and the outlying factors on the blood tests and she glosses over the blood tests as if they don't really mean much. At some point casual observations (the one's I've explained to her), test results, biopsies should all coverge on a diagnosis (or at least eliminate a lot of possibilities). I understand it's a process of elimination, but it seems like she's putting her eggs in one basket expecting the biopsy alone to explain what the next step is. It's so frustrating watching how each generation becomes smarter and dumber at the same time.

 

[Weekend_warrior]

In Electornics, componet level trouble shooting is just not cost effective for the average tech. By all means people do it, but electronics are so cheap these days its almost throw away. If the componet (I.E. board does not to what it needs to re-replace it). You can send the defective one back for referburb and keep it as a spare or recycle. When things need to be up quickly there is no time to waste with a oscilloscope and multimeter. While I can use the things I don't often have to. Log in and check the alarms... Its easier and faster. You will then know where to start. It the smarts that take where you need to from there. Replace parts as needed. I work in Telecommunications and this has been the trend since the late 90's when I started.

 

[barks]

Really? We're bemoaning losing the following skills: buggy whip maker, barrel stave maker, zeppelin pilot, chambermaid, etc.?

Valued skills change from time to time.

A machinist running a very complicated CNC machine producing state of the art mechanical heart valves is not a sign of America 'dumbing down'.

 

[meburdick]

Really? We're bemoaning losing the following skills: buggy whip maker, barrel stave maker, zeppelin pilot, chambermaid, etc.?

Valued skills change from time to time.

A machinist running a very complicated CNC machine producing state of the art mechanical heart valves is not a sign of America 'dumbing down'.

Really? Before that "very complicated CNC machine" was there doing that job, how was it done? And, how will it be done five years from now when the machines are more capable and easier to program?

 

[Alchymist]

Nobody has come up for the final test yet - we still have electricity, gas, (however expensive), cars, internet, supermarkets, etc. When they all go away we will see who has the skills to survive......

 

[EOC_Jason]

I'm on a lot of forums, and always get a chuckle when someone uses their computer to complain about computers! I'mm 44 and use AutoCAD every day. Did manual drafting in Jr. and High School. The head of the drafting dept at the local college had to talk me into taking CAD classes. If I never pick up a pencil and T square again it will be too soon! I still can though, if need be.

Yeah, and the old school autocad people know all the keyboard shortcuts because that's all you had back in DOS days, while the new people have to go click click click through a million menus...

I agree to some extent that certain basic skills have been lost, and not just by average tradesmen. Back in the old days if something was broke around the house, YOU fixed it... Now people call a repair man and get raped for the simplest things...

I consider myself very fortunate that my father (and grandfathers) taught me many basic skills. For instance, I might not know everything off the top of my head about electrical, but at least I have the knowledge and common sense to look in the NEC book to see how it should be done or what should be used.

GPS navigation is nice, however I *still* have a key map of the city and a fold-out map of the state in my truck. I might keep track of things in the computer, but I also have written paper copies.

Nobody has come up for the final test yet - we still have electricity, gas, (however expensive), cars, internet, supermarkets, etc. When they all go away we will see who has the skills to survive......

I welcome that day... It will be open season on politicians, just because they are probably the ones that caused the collapse...

Funny story, one of my friends was talking about that and he said, "Jason, it's sure going to **** if all this goes aways, I don't want to be a vegetarian...." I replied, "What? You have something against shooting a cow, deer, or other animal?".... His reply, "Oh, yeah I guess I didn't think about that..." *facepalm*

 

[Alchymist]

Yeah, and the old school autocad people know all the keyboard shortcuts because that's all you had back in DOS days, while the new people have to go click click click through a million menus...

I agree to some extent that certain basic skills have been lost, and not just by average tradesmen. Back in the old days if something was broke around the house, YOU fixed it... Now people call a repair man and get raped for the simplest things...

I consider myself very fortunate that my father (and grandfathers) taught me many basic skills. For instance, I might not know everything off the top of my head about electrical, but at least I have the knowledge and common sense to look in the NEC book to see how it should be done or what should be used.

GPS navigation is nice, however I *still* have a key map of the city and a fold-out map of the state in my truck. I might keep track of things in the computer, but I also have written paper copies.



I welcome that day... It will be open season on politicians, just because they are probably the ones that caused the collapse...

Funny story, one of my friends was talking about that and he said, "Jason, it's sure going to **** if all this goes aways, I don't want to be a vegetarian...." I replied, "What? You have something against shooting a cow, deer, or other animal?".... His reply, "Oh, yeah I guess I didn't think about that..." *facepalm*

Old Indian definition of a poor hunter: Vegetarian.

 

[rkevins]

when I was in high school we were taught to use a map, not just how to fold one but how to read it to find where you were and how to get where you wanted to go, that don't happen now I do like a gps but I still have a map and atlas.

has anyone ever had a boss like this? I work in the electrical department in a hvac manufacturing plant, we build high tec systems that go all over the world, he told us one time that even as technical as our job was we are not worth any more than someone that cleaned or used a caulking gun all day.
( and the reason he is our former manager he was promoted to a higher paying corporate job)

 

[meburdick]

when I was in high school we were taught to use a map, not just how to fold one but how to read it to find where you were and how to get where you wanted to go, that don't happen now I do like a gps but I still have a map and atlas.

has anyone ever had a boss like this? I work in the electrical department in a hvac manufacturing plant, we build high tec systems that go all over the world, he told us one time that even as technical as our job was we are not worth any more than someone that cleaned or used a caulking gun all day.
( and the reason he is our former manager he was promoted to a higher paying corporate job)

Well, I guess you've found the skills that are valuable TODAY.

 

[EOC_Jason]

when I was in high school we were taught to use a map, not just how to fold one but how to read it to find where you were and how to get where you wanted to go, that don't happen now I do like a gps but I still have a map and atlas.

I remember back in college, there was a surveying class. I guess part of the course they were given directions and had to navigate around the campus setting up their gear and such. Sure as the sun comes up every morning there would *always* be at least one team that was waaaaaaaaay off the course on the far side of campus (or even off campus)...

I hope those people decided to pursue different career paths. They probably ended up working for some city engineering office, which explains a lot... oooooo.... yeah I said it...

 

[crewchief888]

ive been working on const eq for 25+ years

maybe i'm lucky, there was no technology when i started wrenching, but a battery, a couple of idiot lights, switch, starter and an alternator.
it was easy (for me) to see and understand how things worked.

then one day i had to put down my 16lb sledgehammer, and hook up a laptop just to adjust the engine rpm
back before windows95.....
when everything was in DOS, and all i knew about a computer was playing a stupid game on my ex's commodore 64.....:tard:

and now at 54 years old....
my, my how things have changed,
i just spent the last 2 days in school for diesel EFI

i had an older senior project engineer tell me one time 20 years ago, the technology in const eq is coming, you have a choice, embrace it, or be left by the wayside.....

i like to think i've embraced it.

but yea,
i still use an area mapbook on my daily service calls,
but i know how to maquest an address
i dont own a GPS, ipod, ipad, smartphone or even a cell phone....

 

[Falcon67]

I'd just say that the more technology we put into things, the more tech it takes to tell what's broken. In very many cases, the old skills don't apply. New skills are required. Just pulling codes doesn't fix the problem or even guarantee that the code points to the real issue. Same as Google Maps - we don't need paper maps anymore, but if you don't know north from south, no map is gonna help you.

 

[bobby1]

vr notice that if the it dept needs to upgrade something theres always money we had a meeting a couple years ago and one of those guys was there and somehow we were talking about some new program they wanted to put stuff already in computers in another way or something it was $10000 i told thats a awful expensive file cabinet and i could think of some things we could use in the shop or some things we could do to some equipment with all the new computer stuff in cars my grandkids wont be be able to do a backyard build on anything when they get older i can see a tech ( i guess they use to be called mechanics)in 15 years looking at a 60's model car trying to find the plug in i know computers have a place and help but with all the data keepin and such somebody still has to have a tool pouch

 

[crewchief888]

I'd just say that the more technology we put into things, the more tech it takes to tell what's broken. In very many cases, the old skills don't apply. New skills are required. Just pulling codes doesn't fix the problem or even guarantee that the code points to the real issue. Same as Google Maps - we don't need paper maps anymore, but if you don't know north from south, no map is gonna help you.

^^ couldnt have said it better myself.

thankfully theres still enough old iron around to work on i get to use those old skills.

+1 on the codes not always leading to the problem. many times it only leads to part of the problem, knowing when to look further into the issue seems to be the hardest thing to get across to some people.

trying to repair code A doesnt fix the problem, it's code J thats is actually at fault, but caused codes B-I

and sometimes the stupidest & simplest things cause all those codes, trying to "overanalize" is a huge hurdle to get over.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Another thing too, back in the old days when an individual component failed, you repaired / replaced it... Now when a "code" tells you something is bad, standard practice is to replace the entire module, even if it's just a 10 cent component on it.

 

[Falcon67]

Another thing too, back in the old days when an individual component failed, you repaired / replaced it... Now when a "code" tells you something is bad, standard practice is to replace the entire module, even if it's just a 10 cent component on it.

When we started switching from discrete components on PCBs (printed circuit boards) to surface mount technology, pretty much most of the board level troubleshooting went out the window. The company I worked for used a ton of PCBs. Trying to replace a surface mount chip by hand - even if you could because some are really, really small - usually results in a ruined board. Plus those lost man-hours. All for a .10 (or a resistor - maybe .02) part. With overhead, man-hours, etc, it quickly becomes less costly to pitch the board and replace. We had a few boards with replaceable components, usually with an expensive measurement module, a high buck CPU or components that faced incoming signals that could be considered sacrificial. On anything else, troubleshooting was an engineering exercise.

 

[fflintstone]

Lots of interesting perspectives here. It makes me sick to see how people and CHILDREN are married to their smart phones.
I do not want to stand in the way of my son being up to date on technology, but he will dam sure understand LOGIC, REASON, and MORALITY if I live long enough to teach it to him.

 

[Az Scooter]

You also are losing track of what the fundamentals are. Think of how the fundamentals of basketball or any other sport have changed over the years. As better methods of performance have been produced, as the athletes got bigger, etc. the game has changed, and the fundamental way the game is played has changed.
For instance, it was not that long ago that Refrigerator Perry was the biggest offensive lineman in pro football. Maybe you remember him lumbering across the goal line carrying the ball because he was so big.
Now, he would be average size. There are a lot of lineman that are bigger then him, and what is more, is that they are not the lumbering oaf's that Perry, was, but are as quick as cats. That has fundamentally changed the game.
In our world, using a computer is the quickest, easiest way to diagnose and repair a problem. The technician still needs to understand the basic operations of what he is repairing, and still needs the mechanical skills to be able to do the complete repair, but for a cost efficient diagnosis, the computer is the way to go.
Example, yesterday, my operations manager said, "truck 317 has a check engine light one. How do we check it?"
I went out with him, did a quick scan of the truck, and told him what was wrong, opened the hood and showed him the part that needed to be repaired. It took less then 5 minutes to maintain optimum performance of the truck, thus making it run as efficiently as possible. Previously, with a diagnosis process, that part would have failed, and I would have had to wait for another far more expensive failure, before I would have even known that it was bad, and had a truck down, and inoperable for a couple of days. The end repair would have likely cost me over $2000, for a total net loss on the repair of about $3500 because of repair expenses and lost revenue.
He still needs the basic skills, but he also needs to use the technology that is going to allow him to be successful.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Yeah, but one good solar flare and billions of kids will be crying because their smart phones don't work, their cars don't work, their is no power, no tv, no x-box, and no internet...

When I was a kid we got up in the morning, got on our bikes and didn't come home till dinner. Kids played outside and got dirty.... Today's kids are glued to the TV and their smart phones... You still see *some* kids playing outside but not nearly as many as there was before all the technology made it into the home.

God even BASIC skills.... I can't tell you HOW many kids have pulled over in front of our property (it's along the route to the high school) with a flat tire. I would say that *maybe* ONE in TEN of those kids was competent enough to put on the spare. Others just scratched their heads until I went out there and helped / showed them, or till daddy showed up and did it for them, or a tow truck... Let's not even talk about how many of their spares had any sort of tire pressure in them either...

They can facebook their friends like a pro, but they can't change a spare... yeah that's real progress....