carhunter
Well-known member
I'm not certain what you're saying? Is your nephew's business failing because of an over reliance on technology?
Losing the fundamentals
- Thread starter londonsteve
- Start date
I'm not certain what you're saying? Is your nephew's business failing because of an over reliance on technology?
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
A billion years ago, before there were PC or even microprocessors, a Computer Science professor told me, never use a computer to do a job being done by hand unless it is faster (therefore cheaper) or more accurate.
In one of my last jobs as a system administrator, in order to meet our self imposed ISO process, we were required to record whether the nightly backs had completed. That log was in a spiral bound notebook !
In one of my last jobs as a system administrator, in order to meet our self imposed ISO process, we were required to record whether the nightly backs had completed. That log was in a spiral bound notebook !
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
skyking
Well-known member
London England and L.A. .... dang thats one hell of a commute !
GarageEnvy
Well-known member
Funny this should come up right now. A trade magazine has been after me to write an article for them along these lines. As an appraiser I write reports and perform analysis and calculations. Do I use Excel and financial calculators? Yes, and it saves a ton of time. Could I do a net present valuation calculation by hand with a timeline? Yes, and I would lose my shirt on the job because of the extra time. Digital photos, PDF reports, software, laser measuring devices and heck even the old fax machine were great technologies. But somewhere around 2008 the industry reached a tipping point where technology was used in lieu of human knowledge instead of as a tool to assist the appraiser.
When our market changed from declining to stable the computer didn't recognize it for almost a year. Reports were being kicked back for "correction" because the computer disagreed. A smart appraiser would stick to his guns and present his case and hope it persuaded the underwriter to override the computer. However, many just changed the value to match the computer so it saved them time.
That's just one example but in my industry the vast majority of appraisers are now performing their analysis, writing their conclusions and reporting the results based on what the computer gives them so their isn't any conflict with technology. The ability to independently evaluate what technology has provided is totally lost.
When our market changed from declining to stable the computer didn't recognize it for almost a year. Reports were being kicked back for "correction" because the computer disagreed. A smart appraiser would stick to his guns and present his case and hope it persuaded the underwriter to override the computer. However, many just changed the value to match the computer so it saved them time.
That's just one example but in my industry the vast majority of appraisers are now performing their analysis, writing their conclusions and reporting the results based on what the computer gives them so their isn't any conflict with technology. The ability to independently evaluate what technology has provided is totally lost.
ajchien
Well-known member
Yup. In my field it's about money. No one will pay for the services unless you document it with the gadgets. I swear I must spend four or five times longer documenting my work rather than actually doing my work now. No longer can you just fix the problem. The paperwork/gadgetwork is insane.
Richard D
Well-known member
Yeah, I was down with DOS back in the day...I remember when Windows first came out, having to click on all the little squares. I still use the keyboard 50% of the time, even assign my own hotkeys.
I have to defend the iPhone. My dad had to buy me one to convince me to use one; now I would hate to be without it. Could I survive? Of course! But I love having all the information available on the internet in my pocket seconds away. Win a lot of bar bets!
Stee6043
Well-known member
I'd say this thread really serves to confirm that there will always be a changing of the guard in terms of generations of people who work for a living. I can all but guarantee that back in the 50's, 60's, 70's etc there were groups of men that would gather for coffee on Saturday morning and discuss how the upcoming class of workers was "lazy", "coddled" and relied too heavily on the latest "gadgets".
Can you imagine what that group of guys from the 50's would say about this phenomonon of social media? "Can you see these jokers sitting around staring at that box of plastic. They call this a conversation? They don't even talk face to face anymore".
Imagine what the engineers said when the first CAD program came into the office. "That's not engineering"..."that will never replace my drafting table"...."those engineers have lost the fundamentals".
Regardless of industry the fundamentals include hard work, ambition, honesty, loyalty and an ability to deal with change.
Can you imagine what that group of guys from the 50's would say about this phenomonon of social media? "Can you see these jokers sitting around staring at that box of plastic. They call this a conversation? They don't even talk face to face anymore".
Imagine what the engineers said when the first CAD program came into the office. "That's not engineering"..."that will never replace my drafting table"...."those engineers have lost the fundamentals".
Regardless of industry the fundamentals include hard work, ambition, honesty, loyalty and an ability to deal with change.
+1. With the cost of time, even when dealing with thousand dollar circuit boards, it's often cheaper to just replace than troubleshoot and repair. Component level trouble shooting abilities and experience are what your senior technicians are paid for, few industries want to pay that many people for those types of skills. Granted, that is unfortunate.
Agree wholeheartedly. Although I find it a bit humorous hearing the disputes on the definition of machinists. Some people take that really personal!
Interesting discussion. My 2 cents is everyone is putting faith in a machine that is programmed by people. There is no magic if they don't put lines of code in to give you that ODBC error code or they pickup a sensor trip.
There are countless instances of GPS giving non-existent streets and directions. NASA lost a Mars probe because the two teams were working on different units of measurement.
I use technology but I also prefer to know the basics so I can check to see if the technology is right.
Rick
There are countless instances of GPS giving non-existent streets and directions. NASA lost a Mars probe because the two teams were working on different units of measurement.
I use technology but I also prefer to know the basics so I can check to see if the technology is right.
Rick
Alchymist
Well-known member
The old saying: GIGO" comes to mind.
EOC_Jason
Well-known member
Yeah, but sometimes you run into hardware that is EOL. The manufacturer won't touch it so you have to crack it open and FIX it...
I really like the old HP test equipment. You open them up and it's old style hand-drawn traces on the PCB's. Components are all big enough and common enough that you can replace it. Likewise HP has full schematics and details so if you have the right equipment to test you can find out what is wrong and replace just what needs to be. Today's stuff you try to call the manufacturer / tech support and you "Jeff" in India trying to read some Chinese's person's poor engrish or following a computer screen for common (and pointless) troubleshooting... "Is it plugged in?".... "Is the screen showing any image?"...
crewchief888
Well-known member
i agree , sometimes i spend more time doing paperwork and documenting what i've done than the actual repair, especially when doing warranty work
then add to that the time it takes the next person (my boss) to input everything i've done, and dcumented, attach files, or pics/vids to the claim.
IMO electronic diagnosis has been a godsend for me, the DIY guy. I don't have the experience needed when you see 50 cars a week thru a shop to learn the ins and outs of each car. My car wouldn't start the other day, pull the codes bam crankshaft sensor. Look it up makes sense (no start) causes no fuel or spark to be sent.
Manual lists an ohm value, I measure it get 1.5 mil ohms normal range is 500-700. There is my problem. We're 15 minutes into the whole process now. Pick up the phone, the local Car Quest can get it in 2 hours. 15 minutes to R&R and back in business.
Contrast that to what if I had no OBD2 system. Where do you begin? Well you need fuel and spark. You need air (compression). Then all the sensors that go along with that. Yeah you could test them all but it would take all day. Makes no sense to not use technology to your advantage IMO.
Manual lists an ohm value, I measure it get 1.5 mil ohms normal range is 500-700. There is my problem. We're 15 minutes into the whole process now. Pick up the phone, the local Car Quest can get it in 2 hours. 15 minutes to R&R and back in business.
Contrast that to what if I had no OBD2 system. Where do you begin? Well you need fuel and spark. You need air (compression). Then all the sensors that go along with that. Yeah you could test them all but it would take all day. Makes no sense to not use technology to your advantage IMO.
sdguy55
Well-known member
O you are absolutely correct its coming. And my shop is so screwed right now its not even funny. I have a hard enough time trying to convince them to buy PAPER manuals for DD15's (for those of you who dont know its the newer series of detroits). The engines are so confusing to look at its mind-boggling. They are gonna have to change their ways pretty quicklyive been working on const eq for 25+ years
maybe i'm lucky, there was no technology when i started wrenching, but a battery, a couple of idiot lights, switch, starter and an alternator.
it was easy (for me) to see and understand how things worked.
then one day i had to put down my 16lb sledgehammer, and hook up a laptop just to adjust the engine rpm
back before windows95.....
when everything was in DOS, and all i knew about a computer was playing a stupid game on my ex's commodore 64.....:tard:
and now at 54 years old....
my, my how things have changed,
i just spent the last 2 days in school for diesel EFI
i had an older senior project engineer tell me one time 20 years ago, the technology in const eq is coming, you have a choice, embrace it, or be left by the wayside.....
i like to think i've embraced it.
but yea,
i still use an area mapbook on my daily service calls,
but i know how to maquest an address
i dont own a GPS, ipod, ipad, smartphone or even a cell phone....
Murphy4570
Well-known member
Never worked on old OBD-I systems? I have. There are manufacturer specific diagnostic systems integrated into them. You can test them, but a much more limited amount than OBD-II. You can pull codes in KOEO and KOER modes, as well as do a cylinder balance test. That's about it.
I can deal with old obsolete EFI systems. Hell, I can deal with carburetors, and those don't talk to you at all! Contrast the fancy OBD-II system to that! Hah!
Technology is a wonderful thing, but you must retain knowledge of the basics to properly diagnose problems.
Yeah, but sometimes you run into hardware that is EOL. The manufacturer won't touch it so you have to crack it open and FIX it...
Today's stuff you try to call the manufacturer / tech support and you "Jeff" in India trying to read some Chinese's person's poor engrish or following a computer screen for common (and pointless) troubleshooting... "Is it plugged in?".... "Is the screen showing any image?"...
I overwhelmingly agree! In my field, the vast majority of equipment has certainly surpassed the manufacturers intended lifespan. I regularly come across equipment manufactured in the 20's and 30's. While modern replacements often tend to be even more problematic and engineered to be throwaway versus rebuildable. We tend to struggle to even find manufacturers engineering notes yet alone spare parts availability, often having our shop guys build our own replacement parts. Hence in our training program we start techs offlearning component level diagnostics as a foundation before moving into newer practices. Unfortunately, that style training is ridiculously expensive. Even having the techs who can do the work though, if replacement components are available, it's generally a better value to just replace the parts.
crewchief888
Well-known member
i hear ya.
there are many times i'd like to be able to thumb quickly through a code manual to see what just popped up. i cant ( and dont try to) remember even the most common codes. theres just too many of them.
our OEM doesnt print some manuals anymore... but everything is available via the net (through a secured server)
i was talking to our OEM district service manager yesterday while i was at school, he was telling me he still has dealers that dont have internet access available to their mechanics, and one has been without a laptop, for service software (stored code retreval, diagnostics, upgrades, and calibrations) for several months.
usually a day doesnt go by that i dont connect a laptop to a machine for some reason.
I'm sure back in the day someone was complaining that a slide rule was just a crutch for lazy thinkers.
crewchief888
Well-known member
I'm sure back in the day someone was complaining that a slide rule was just a crutch for lazy thinkers.
gezz jack,
i found one in by toolbox the other day, i'm too old to read the numbers, and i cant remember how to use it.....
maybe i am old afterall
Diagnosing an old car with simplistic systems is different than diagnosing a new car with advanced systems and many components in them. FWIW my older car has OBD1. A neat little box but it takes longer to pull a single code than it does to scan the whole car (it's also OBD2).
sdguy55
Well-known member
My .02
As it has been stated many many times. You need to know the fundamentals of something in order to be confident in your work. Theres alot of techs i know that for a certain repair things 1, 2, 3 have to happen and if one of those doesnt happen they are just baffled at how to fix it. Hell on alot of things im the same way im not gonna deny it. But i also try to make a BIG effort to learn about the system and WHY that certain problem arose. Those same techs that rely on that kind of thinking are also worried constantly if their repair was the right one and if it actually fixed it. If you know the fundamentals you can work through the steps as to why that repair should have actually fixed it.
As it has been stated many many times. You need to know the fundamentals of something in order to be confident in your work. Theres alot of techs i know that for a certain repair things 1, 2, 3 have to happen and if one of those doesnt happen they are just baffled at how to fix it. Hell on alot of things im the same way im not gonna deny it. But i also try to make a BIG effort to learn about the system and WHY that certain problem arose. Those same techs that rely on that kind of thinking are also worried constantly if their repair was the right one and if it actually fixed it. If you know the fundamentals you can work through the steps as to why that repair should have actually fixed it.
i see a lot of older worker that refuse to follow technology and will get let behind. By following technology doesnt mean you dont know the basics, but business adapt and overcome. even cutting grass for a living has new technology. So I see the other side of what you are complaining about, if you dont want to advance, stay on the front porch with your dog in the rocker, you going get left behind and there nothing you can do about it
Alchymist
Well-known member
Anyone want to try repair at the component level on this?
http://www.symmetricom.com/products/frequency-references/chip-scale-atomic-clock-csac/SA.45s-CSAC/
http://www.symmetricom.com/products/frequency-references/chip-scale-atomic-clock-csac/SA.45s-CSAC/
Falcon67
Well-known member
Needs a miniature speaker inside going tick-tick-tick.
EOC_Jason
Well-known member
I would think that item would be considered a component. It's going to be a sealed item that is designed to not be opened up (or it wouldn't be useful in underwater applications).
The fact that it's designed for CMOS interface at 3.3V shows that it's intended to be mounted to a PCB like any other component chip.
Could it be inspected for defect? Yes. The input and output specs are on that page. You'll need testing equipment designed to create the inputs and measure the outputs - likely a bit costly.
Once deemed defective, you need a good soldering station to install a new one. Also a little expensive.
End result - no one will do it because it requires too much money to build the test / repair station for the number of times you would be able to charge to work on it.
OP
londonsteve
Well-known member
It's not about old versus new. it's about learning why and how things happen.
My original trade was as a carpenter, I was an apprentice for 3 years in that time I worked on the tools and went to a technical college and I learnt a hell of a lot (some of it I have never used). As soon as I finished my apprenticeship the first thing I did was invest in a electric plane, router, mitre saw Etc. which made the work easier and faster and as the years went on I got every new tool and gadget and they are all great. But when I eventually had my own company and was employng carpenters and other tradesmen including Welders and Mechanics I could really see that the ones that had served a apprenticeship were the most valued in my company and that they were the ones who usually ended up being promoted and getting the cream of the work. Granted that most of the other tradesmen were competant some even excellent at their trade, but it was a lack of the basic knowledge which in my opinion led to a blinkered approach and delays in dealing with problems ( I used to design and build restaurants all over the world, always to a tight schedule and budget). It is this reason I believe that real mechanics are on the wane and most are now Fitters who just replace parts in a methodical order until the problem is solved.
Why is it when I take one of my cars to the dealer to fix something, it is always at least 2 things they replace often 3 or 4 items, why is it never just the one thing that went wrong ?
My original trade was as a carpenter, I was an apprentice for 3 years in that time I worked on the tools and went to a technical college and I learnt a hell of a lot (some of it I have never used). As soon as I finished my apprenticeship the first thing I did was invest in a electric plane, router, mitre saw Etc. which made the work easier and faster and as the years went on I got every new tool and gadget and they are all great. But when I eventually had my own company and was employng carpenters and other tradesmen including Welders and Mechanics I could really see that the ones that had served a apprenticeship were the most valued in my company and that they were the ones who usually ended up being promoted and getting the cream of the work. Granted that most of the other tradesmen were competant some even excellent at their trade, but it was a lack of the basic knowledge which in my opinion led to a blinkered approach and delays in dealing with problems ( I used to design and build restaurants all over the world, always to a tight schedule and budget). It is this reason I believe that real mechanics are on the wane and most are now Fitters who just replace parts in a methodical order until the problem is solved.
Why is it when I take one of my cars to the dealer to fix something, it is always at least 2 things they replace often 3 or 4 items, why is it never just the one thing that went wrong ?
Because "statistics" have proven the most likely reason for an issue to be "A", the second most likely reason to be "B", and so on. And, as a result, the manufacturers would rather pay for A + B + C than they would truly test everything and resolve the issue the first time.
As a consumer, you would rather pay for that, too, because it's ultimately cheaper that way.
Steevo
Well-known member
Why, when I was a boy . . . .
No, really, they taught us things in school like long division, multiplication, fractions and liquid measurements, making change for money, time math, and other basics that I have used all my life.
Most younger people nowadays aren't taught the skills needed to live without depending on "tools", so it is their natural predilection to whip out a cell phone, use an "app for that" and move on.
It isn't a bad thing, but when placed in a situation where their "gadget" is unavailable, they can be very handicapped.
Just last week at a restaurant, I asked the waitress for a pint of green sauce to go, and she said "we only have 16 oz. cups or 20 oz. cups, which would you like." DOH!
Then the guy we were with couldn't figure out a 20% tip without using his iPhone. DOH!!
I did recently throw away a whole drawer full of street maps, because most were for cities I used to live in at some point, and the rest are outdated rapidly by continuing development. On top of that, the online maps I can access on my iPad can also give me traffic conditions, alternate route recommendations, and can find me businesses nearby at any point during my travels. A map can't do that.
No, really, they taught us things in school like long division, multiplication, fractions and liquid measurements, making change for money, time math, and other basics that I have used all my life.
Most younger people nowadays aren't taught the skills needed to live without depending on "tools", so it is their natural predilection to whip out a cell phone, use an "app for that" and move on.
It isn't a bad thing, but when placed in a situation where their "gadget" is unavailable, they can be very handicapped.
Just last week at a restaurant, I asked the waitress for a pint of green sauce to go, and she said "we only have 16 oz. cups or 20 oz. cups, which would you like." DOH!
Then the guy we were with couldn't figure out a 20% tip without using his iPhone. DOH!!
I did recently throw away a whole drawer full of street maps, because most were for cities I used to live in at some point, and the rest are outdated rapidly by continuing development. On top of that, the online maps I can access on my iPad can also give me traffic conditions, alternate route recommendations, and can find me businesses nearby at any point during my travels. A map can't do that.
EOC_Jason
Well-known member
Learning how to make a desk, vs turning a few locking thingamajigs from a pre-cut desk from Ikea is two different things though. That is the skills that people have lost. You show someone a standing tree and tell them to make some lumber from it and they look at you like:
Alchymist
Well-known member
Learning how to make a desk, vs turning a few locking thingamajigs from a pre-cut desk from Ikea is two different things though. That is the skills that people have lost. You show someone a standing tree and tell them to make some lumber from it and they look at you like:
1) Cut down tree BTDT
2) Make lumber from tree BTDT
3) Build house/barn/shed/etc from lumber BTDT
4) Make furniture from lumber BTDT
5) Install all electrical in house BTDT
6) Install all plumbing in house BTDT
7) Remove, repair, re-install engine/transmission in car, truck, tractor, airplane, BTDT
8) Make parts on lathe, mill, drill press BTDT
9) Test & repair many types of electrical & electronic gear BTDT
10) Clear land, plow, plant, harvest BTDT
Lets see, did I miss anything? OK, I'll admit I'm older than dirt!
jsb025
Active member
I disagree. These things are taught. These skills are not reinforced because of the "tools that are available. People will naturally take the path of least resistance. Ultimately, many of these tools will cause old skills to fade and new ones to emerge. I would be willing to bet the blacksmith thought the same thing about "technology" back in his day.
I know. For me at least, the Ikea assembly is much more difficult.
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
I'm one of those who sees both the pros and cons in technological advances.
I've seen "operators" who can't get within 10' of grade without the GPS. I've seen 30,000 tons of high grade ore go to a waste dump because the computer markers didn't update overnight. Since I retired from the operations side of things and went into the millwright's side of things I've seen it even more. Our "reliability" engineers recently spent 2 days and untold thousands of dollars in downtime trying to convince us a bent shaft wasn't bent. Their $100K laser aligner showed the shaft as straight, the targets lined up on each end!! My $150 dial indicator found the .097" sag in the middle with about 30 seconds of effort.
Sure the gizmos can save time and effort, and in a lot of cases they do. But how do you align a sheave within .005" when the laser line is .050" wide? There's a lot of room for variance there.
I've seen "operators" who can't get within 10' of grade without the GPS. I've seen 30,000 tons of high grade ore go to a waste dump because the computer markers didn't update overnight. Since I retired from the operations side of things and went into the millwright's side of things I've seen it even more. Our "reliability" engineers recently spent 2 days and untold thousands of dollars in downtime trying to convince us a bent shaft wasn't bent. Their $100K laser aligner showed the shaft as straight, the targets lined up on each end!! My $150 dial indicator found the .097" sag in the middle with about 30 seconds of effort.
Sure the gizmos can save time and effort, and in a lot of cases they do. But how do you align a sheave within .005" when the laser line is .050" wide? There's a lot of room for variance there.
Murphy4570
Well-known member
When it comes to machining tolerances, the best tools are still the traditional ones. Dial caliper, micrometer (not that fancy digital kind either!), depth gauge, feeler gauges, etc etc. Having an experienced machinist who has the kinesthetic knowledge to have the "feel" for these tools and can use them correctly with repeatability and reliability are also worth an untold fortune.
richfinn
Well-known member
So you are saying that if a tech misdiagnosed the fault 3 times on a warranty job before finally striking it lucky with the fourth part the manufacturer would happily pay for the 3 non faulty parts as the tech had saved so much testing time?
C,mon thats not how it works, they would have to build a mountain of spares to just throw away if every dealership in the World worked like that.
I would say this, your auto tech who knows how the basics work will most likely grab the scan tool first on a modern car as its the quickest way to delve into the systems, say you have a cranking non start, its far easier to hook up check out the DTCs and watch the basic data on the computer than it is to actually locate all the sensors and test them with a meter or a scope.
Its what he does next that separates the men from the boys
So you are saying that if a tech misdiagnosed the fault 3 times on a warranty job before finally striking it lucky with the fourth part the manufacturer would happily pay for the 3 non faulty parts as the tech had saved so much testing time?
C,mon thats not how it works, they would have to build a mountain of spares to just throw away if every dealership in the World worked like that.
I would say this, your auto tech who knows how the basics work will most likely grab the scan tool first on a modern car as its the quickest way to delve into the systems, say you have a cranking non start, its far easier to hook up check out the DTCs and watch the basic data on the computer than it is to actually locate all the sensors and test them with a meter or a scope.
Its what he does next that separates the men from the boys
I didn't really word it the right way...
I used to fix Apple computers user their diag software (this was almost 20 years ago). The software was little more than: pick a model, pick a problem, replace the indicated part. If that didn't work, try the next most common fix.
This method drastically reduces diag time (which the consumer benefits from). The difference here is that the computers could immediately be tested to verify if the problem went away, especially since the parts being replaced were "whole boards" (of which there were about four).
In cars, for example, if you can immediately re-test for the condition and it's gone, great. If not, try the next one. This makes the process essentially "brainless" and fast and brings you to the fix more quickly and with only the right part.
Now, in the case where you can't test right away, I would absolutely NOT expect to pay for a repair that ended up not being a repair. This is just ONE reason why you always ask for the old parts to be returned to you.
GYOGI65
Well-known member
I am also 48 been in the field for over 30 years (dad had a shop).I work for a school system and am responsible for 30 day inspections,yearly wheel pulls,and six month state inspections all the info is logged into a computer but the computer only gives over due or 30 day warning but with a chalkboard and 3x5 card i can monitor the work load in less time time than it takes to turn on the computer.I have also come to the conclusion if the scanner doesnt give you the problem the younger generation cant fix it if you cant fix a 292 chevy you will never be able to diagnos a 6.0 lchevy the computer wont tell it all
OccupantRJ
Well-known member
Anyone who cannot keep their mower running to cut the grass on Saturday morning need not expect to campaign a top fuel dragster on Sunday.