Losing the fundamentals

[wildhorsehans]

All of this stuff is designed to fail.
I got a code on the Wifes Durango yesterday so I look up what it is and what the deal was to fix it.
Honest to God it said to pull the intake and check an electrical connection!!! You can't even SEE the intake under all the **** and what kind of ***** puts an electrical connection UNDER an intake manifold!???
Same deal on her old one with the 4.6 or whatever it was. Had to replace the entire engine in it because a cam spun out. I am talking to the mechanic about it and say why don't we just replace the cam bearings, his answer? It has no cam bearings, well lets replace the cam tower, his answer, it is cast as part of the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about designing to screw the consumer!

 

[BWS]

This is NOT a rant on public schools.....its merely an observation.

Wifey is an education guru....rules and policy maker.So I've been privy to how some things,better left un-discussed....work within that environ.

About 1970 the stone was cast that started the system of,or "leaning" twds(and a mighty few years later this became a full-on push)....That somehow if you work with your hands,choosing a trade vs college,will result in you being "left behind".

We are now seeing the result in that.My opine can be backed up with lots of evidence.....and at the risk of sounding like some quack will again say,ya'll probably don't want to know the details(policy's,bell curves and whatnots).

One question no-one seems to care to answer me is,"at what point does the cost of college outweigh the benefits"?How do technical schools figure into this?

I'll stop there......gotta go to work,duh.

 

[meburdick]

The cost of college has largely outweighed the benefits for a very long time... I would say that it has been thus way ever since a college education became attainable by "anyone" (as soon as you commodotize something, you devalue it).

 

[JimVonBaden]

It depends. If you get a degree in a field with a need, then a college degree is worth it. Get a degree in something like history or philosophy, and you better like working in the fast food industry!

Generally, with a useable degree, college grads pass non-college grads at 4-5 years out of college for pay. Figure in the 4-5 years of not getting paid in college, and the cost of education, and at about 15 years out of callege, you break even, assuming the non-college grad took up a trade that is in demand.

In the end, college often pays for itself several times over, IF one picks a useful degree.

http://www.dba-oracle.com/t_increased_earnings_income_bachelors_masters_doctorate.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2010/03/college_is_worth_the_cost.html

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/a/edandearnings.htm

Jim

 

[EOC_Jason]

I think the discernible difference everyone is trying to make is:

We can all "use" new technology, whether or not it is as productive as the old ways is questionable in each situation.

However, the differences comes into play when there are people that DEPEND on technology to GIVE them the answer (right or wrong), that they would otherwise NOT be able to figure out for themselves.

Technology should simply just be a TOOL, like anything else in your toolbox. Your brain is where the problem solving should come from. That is the skill that has been lost over time.

It depends. If you get a degree in a field with a need, then a college degree is worth it. Get a degree in something like history or philosophy, and you better like working in the fast food industry!

A graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?" A graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?" A graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?" A graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Would you like an apple pie with that?"

 

[wildhorsehans]

Not 100% sure about the degree deal. My Wife is Harvard class of 2000 and I have made far more than she has every single year.

 

[hh76]

I have just spent a week with my nephew to see if I wanted to invest in his business, now he is a great plumber/heating engineer with every qualfication available but I could not believe how much of his time is run by gadgets!!
I have just turned fifty and I am been lucky enough to be retired and enjoying it. I just cannot believe that people put so much faith in gadgets. on a typical work day with my nephew he starts the day organising his appointments with his ipad and printing his service sheets off on a mobile airprinter Get a pad and pencil, then its organising his traveling by inputing the addresses into the sat nav, a very handy tool but when you rely on these you lose the knowledge of the area, Get a map!. then onto the job. for a broken boiler he plugs in his laptop and fault finds the problem. the computer invariably brings up choice of two faults and 2 or 3 replacement parts needed. Get a multi meter and check components!.
This is happening everywhere from servicing my car (warning light on my car ford want $180 to plug in their analyzer to tell me the fault then charge to fix it)
The skill of the professional tradesmen is lessening everyday, sure gadgets have their place but they are reducing people using their hard earned knowledge.

I'm guessing the Ipad is using software that links all the jobs to accounting and other software. Saves him a ton of time when it comes to billing and taxes. A pad and paper just can't do that.

I'd assume he has a map for backup? The GPS probably saves him time.

I wish I could just plug in a laptop for a lot of diagnosing. Would save a lot of time, and probably spits out a part number so you don't have to go look it up.

As the world gets more complex, those who keep up with technology will leave the rest behind.

 

[Zeke]

I'm 67 and don't agree with any of this. Sure, there are times when a little manual input is better, but on the car, for instance, if if will talk to you and tell you what's wrong w/o having to test a bunch of sending units. why wouldn't you take that route?

On the GPS, you say using it and you lose touch with the area. You still have to drive the van around each turn, correct?

I don't get the OP's complaint. Unless he is afraid of the new world.

Now kids texting 100 messages a day, that IS a waste. They aren't solving problems that are worth solving.

 

[meburdick]

It depends. If you get a degree in a field with a need, then a college degree is worth it. Get a degree in something like history or philosophy, and you better like working in the fast food industry!

Generally, with a useable degree, college grads pass non-college grads at 4-5 years out of college for pay. Figure in the 4-5 years of not getting paid in college, and the cost of education, and at about 15 years out of callege, you break even, assuming the non-college grad took up a trade that is in demand.

In the end, college often pays for itself several times over, IF one picks a useful degree.

http://www.dba-oracle.com/t_increased_earnings_income_bachelors_masters_doctorate.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2010/03/college_is_worth_the_cost.html

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/a/edandearnings.htm

Jim

A) Tech Sector jobs do not require degrees because you can't teach most of the stuff in school. I studied Computer Science, and it's a waste of time. The information being taught in school compared to what you need to know in the real world has a large enough gap that I compare it with going to school to be an accountant and the most current tool you'll be allowed to use is an abacus.

B) I know plenty of people in tech sector jobs that are making as much as their degreed counterparts or more.

C) I know plenty of people with Bachelor degrees in Business that can't find ANY job. So, their degree has not increased their earnings one cent.

D) With jobs becoming more and more "specialized" and requiring less education / training of the workers, fields with a need have less and less use for someone with a degree and more and more need for someone with specialized training.

 

[OctoMan]

some of your auto parts store will scan fault codes for free. Heck with the dealer! Or if you have a friend who ponied up the cash to buy one ..

 

[meburdick]

All of this stuff is designed to fail.
I got a code on the Wifes Durango yesterday so I look up what it is and what the deal was to fix it.
Honest to God it said to pull the intake and check an electrical connection!!! You can't even SEE the intake under all the **** and what kind of ***** puts an electrical connection UNDER an intake manifold!???
Same deal on her old one with the 4.6 or whatever it was. Had to replace the entire engine in it because a cam spun out. I am talking to the mechanic about it and say why don't we just replace the cam bearings, his answer? It has no cam bearings, well lets replace the cam tower, his answer, it is cast as part of the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about designing to screw the consumer!

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Things are designed to provide a certain amount of use, and for that "guaranteed" amount of usability you will be charged a certain price. Things are not designed to simply "break".

On your related topic, you say that the design for the motor was done to "screw the consumer". I think it's exactly the opposite. That design was chosen because it met the serviceability requirements set forth in the motor and was the lowest cost method of producing the part that met the needs. If they had designed the motor differently to make it more "repairable", you would pay a higher cost for the vehicle. And, quite frankly, so would everyone else. Truth be told, MOST of those will not need to be repaired, so why should every consumer have to pay more money for a "feature" they will never take advantage of?

One of the items I always look at when buying a new car is the total cost of ownership over a 2, 3, 4, 5 year period and then beyond. I can't predict every failure or breakage, but if I *know* what the guaranteed costs are, I can start comparing them. Then, I research common problems and try to understand how likely it is to happen and how much it will cost me if I have to pay to fix it.

 

[smschriefer]

I am also 48 been in the field for over 30 years (dad had a shop).I work for a school system and am responsible for 30 day inspections,yearly wheel pulls,and six month state inspections all the info is logged into a computer but the computer only gives over due or 30 day warning but with a chalkboard and 3x5 card i can monitor the work load in less time time than it takes to turn on the computer.I have also come to the conclusion if the scanner doesnt give you the problem the younger generation cant fix it if you cant fix a 292 chevy you will never be able to diagnos a 6.0 lchevy the computer wont tell it all

I'd say you either don't know how to use the program effectively, or the system should never have been bought. With that software you can probably run reports to output a calendar view per week/month, or even a custom timeframe. Since it is in a database you could easily extract that information to excel as a csv file, determine the FTE requirements for each task, determine hourly rate of each task and complete all of that while you are still transcribing all of your index cards to a single sheet of paper. People might not like technology, but the goal is to leverage the technology to your advantage.

To the OP, I agree that in any job a person must first understand the basic theory of the job. They have to understand how things work, but at the point they know that - use the tools that make the job the easiest. A good example is engineering. You spend years in college learning formulas and manually running the damn things only to find that in the real world you input data into whatever software your company uses and it spits the answers out in under a second. You still have to know why you need the data and how to interpret the results. I think what you are really upset about is the sheer laziness of youth. They don't learn street directions because it involves retention of data and sadly, that isn't going to change due to technological advances and the ease of retrieving data. Be happy you know that right ways and trust me - there will always be a subset of the population who is competent in any given field.

 

[JimVonBaden]

A) Tech Sector jobs do not require degrees because you can't teach most of the stuff in school. I studied Computer Science, and it's a waste of time. The information being taught in school compared to what you need to know in the real world has a large enough gap that I compare it with going to school to be an accountant and the most current tool you'll be allowed to use is an abacus.

B) I know plenty of people in tech sector jobs that are making as much as their degreed counterparts or more.

C) I know plenty of people with Bachelor degrees in Business that can't find ANY job. So, their degree has not increased their earnings one cent.

D) With jobs becoming more and more "specialized" and requiring less education / training of the workers, fields with a need have less and less use for someone with a degree and more and more need for someone with specialized training.

Your personal experience is not backed by statistics, and your experience my only be a very local issue.

None the less, individual responses may vary. I was not suggesting the every single experience will be the same. I am not foolish enough to believe that a forum such as this would not have a significant number of people claiming that education matters as much as trades either.

Jim

 

[meburdick]

Your personal experience is not backed by statistics, and your experience my only be a very local issue.

None the less, individual responses may vary. I was not suggesting the every single experience will be the same. I am not foolish enough to believe that a forum such as this would not have a significant number of people claiming that education matters as much as trades either.

Jim

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.

That's the first sentence from a Wikipedia entry found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

My personal experience cover North American industry as a generalized whole. The ONLY time I have seen folks with degrees "making more money" in the tech realm are those folks that have been able to leverage their degree to get a Team Lead, Shift Supervisor, or Manager sort of role within a department or group. Still, though, I've seen many folks in those roles without the degrees too.

 

[smschriefer]

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.

That's the first sentence from a Wikipedia entry found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

My personal experience cover North American industry as a generalized whole. The ONLY time I have seen folks with degrees "making more money" in the tech realm are those folks that have been able to leverage their degree to get a Team Lead, Shift Supervisor, or Manager sort of role within a department or group. Still, though, I've seen many folks in those roles without the degrees too.

The point you aren't making is to advance you have to continually work on education in the IT industry. A degree still makes a difference. As you state, team lead and higher paying positions do have a degree of advancement possibilities made available by a degree. Granted, you don't need a degree, but where I work in IT, if you don't have a degree - your resume will make it no further than the trash can for the high paying jobs, but we will gladly hire you as a call center rep. Then you can advance to the better jobs by showing what you can do, but your pay will always be lower than the college grad. Again, just an example of the 3 tech firms I have worked at.

 

[BFBOB]

I'm on a lot of forums, and always get a chuckle when someone uses their computer to complain about computers! I'mm 44 and use AutoCAD every day. Did manual drafting in Jr. and High School. The head of the drafting dept at the local college had to talk me into taking CAD classes. If I never pick up a pencil and T square again it will be too soon! I still can though, if need be.

Pencils? You had pencils?? Now, we had it tough. Had to chip a sharp point on a piece of flint and use it to scratch our plots on a flat rock!

No, really, I predate Mylar, clear back to the ink & linen days, and I would NEVER go back! I do all my drafting on the computer, though I use CorelDraw. Better and worse than AutoCad, but more versatile for sure.

 

[Kevin54]

I have just spent a week with my nephew to see if I wanted to invest in his business, now he is a great plumber/heating engineer with every qualfication available but I could not believe how much of his time is run by gadgets!!
I have just turned fifty and I am been lucky enough to be retired and enjoying it. I just cannot believe that people put so much faith in gadgets. on a typical work day with my nephew he starts the day organising his appointments with his ipad and printing his service sheets off on a mobile airprinter Get a pad and pencil, then its organising his traveling by inputing the addresses into the sat nav, a very handy tool but when you rely on these you lose the knowledge of the area, Get a map!. then onto the job. for a broken boiler he plugs in his laptop and fault finds the problem. the computer invariably brings up choice of two faults and 2 or 3 replacement parts needed. Get a multi meter and check components!.
This is happening everywhere from servicing my car (warning light on my car ford want $180 to plug in their analyzer to tell me the fault then charge to fix it)
The skill of the professional tradesmen is lessening everyday, sure gadgets have their place but they are reducing people using their hard earned knowledge.

Stand on the other side of the fence. Although he be spending time with the gadgets, and you think he is losing out on the fundementals, it may very well be you not keeping up with progress. Sometimes the gadjets DO SAVE TIME and TAKE OUT HUMAN ERROR. I try to stay up with the electronic gadjets but I know I am way behind the times although way further ahead than many others. I remember the time that people bitched when computers were just starting out and computers were starting to take over check out lines.

 

[Roots]

It depends. If you get a degree in a field with a need, then a college degree is worth it. Get a degree in something like history or philosophy, and you better like working in the fast food industry!

Generally, with a useable degree, college grads pass non-college grads at 4-5 years out of college for pay. Figure in the 4-5 years of not getting paid in college, and the cost of education, and at about 15 years out of callege, you break even, assuming the non-college grad took up a trade that is in demand.

In the end, college often pays for itself several times over, IF one picks a useful degree.

I really don't understand the notion of a degree being worthless. Especially when most entry level professional jobs are not the least bit concerned with what your degree is in, just that you have one. There was even a recent study about the nature of grad school science programs and how so few Phd. scientists even work in the field they earned their doctorate in.

I'm not sure if those old income models can really be extrapolated to the future though. Especially considering that many career caliber entry level jobs that traditionally required a high school diploma, now require a bachelors degree as a pre-requisite. With little concern for what the degree even is. While the bachelors degree becoming the defacto new high school diploma has significantly stagnated 4 year degree wages, outside of a few industries/fields. Hell, there are apprenticeships out there now that request applicants have a bachelors degree.

The point you aren't making is to advance you have to continually work on education in the IT industry. A degree still makes a difference.

Granted, you don't need a degree, but where I work in IT, if you don't have a degree - your resume will make it no further than the trash can for the high paying jobs, but we will gladly hire you as a call center rep.

Of all the professions, that some tech companies solely focus on degrees befuddles me. It seems some companies insist on it as a pre-requisite and others just roll their eyes at the notion and want to know what you've done in the industry. A friend of mine was a zombie for a year while he knocked out his masters online, just so he could go from being the interim IT department head to permanent. While another doesn't even have a degree and regularly consults and does work for the biggest names in the industry, being continuously recruited away for different high end projects.

 

[JimVonBaden]

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.

That's the first sentence from a Wikipedia entry found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

My personal experience cover North American industry as a generalized whole. The ONLY time I have seen folks with degrees "making more money" in the tech realm are those folks that have been able to leverage their degree to get a Team Lead, Shift Supervisor, or Manager sort of role within a department or group. Still, though, I've seen many folks in those roles without the degrees too.

OK, so you are recognized industry expert who know's the facts on both skilled trades, unskilled trades, and professional trades. Gotcha. I stand corrected by wiki!

Jim

PS Back up your assertions with proof, not personal ancedotes.

 

[JimVonBaden]

I'm not saying they wore worthless, just worth less! Pick a hot field, and a degree is worth a lot more than a degree in the arts. This is generalizing, and there are lots of people with an arts degree that make good money, but the odds are far in favor of a good applicable degree over a generalized degree like a BA in philosophy.

On the other hand, I worked for a Leutenant in the Air Force who, I **** you not, had a degree in basket weaving, and she was in charge of aircraft maintenance. She sucked at it, but she was in charge.

Jim

 

[smschriefer]

On the other hand, I worked for a Leutenant in the Air Force who, I **** you not, had a degree in basket weaving, and she was in charge of aircraft maintenance. She sucked at it, but she was in charge.

Jim

Ha! I was an aircraft fuel systems specialist in the Air Force. My last maintenance commander had her degree in Human *********. She sucked at her job too.

 

[meburdick]

OK, so you are recognized industry expert who know's the facts on both skilled trades, unskilled trades, and professional trades. Gotcha. I stand corrected by wiki!

Jim

PS Back up your assertions with proof, not personal ancedotes.

I didn't say I was proving you wrong or that I was a recognized industry expert. I was merely indicating that statistics can very often be manipulated to show whatever message the author wants them to. They are not useless and meaningless, but they DO need to be scrutinized and understood to determine their value in a discussion.

Once I have been shown the "industry statistics" that back up your assertion, and can determine whether or not they seem reasonable to me. And, if they do not, I can look for counterpoints.

 

[JimVonBaden]

I didn't say I was proving you wrong or that I was a recognized industry expert. I was merely indicating that statistics can very often be manipulated to show whatever message the author wants them to. They are not useless and meaningless, but they DO need to be scrutinized and understood to determine their value in a discussion.

Once I have been shown the "industry statistics" that back up your assertion, and can determine whether or not they seem reasonable to me. And, if they do not, I can look for counterpoints.

I already posted links. Did you read them?

Jim

 

[meburdick]

I already posted links. Did you read them?

Jim

I did.

They contain no information as to exactly what information was collected or from whom. There is no "empirical" data to be viewed. The possible fact that people with a college degree earn "X" more than people without proves nothing.

What was their degree in? Are they working in their field? What year's census was this tied to (the results from the 90's would be very different than those from the 70's, and they are only two censuses apart). Did they count ONLY people that were old enough to have completed enough schooling to earn a degree?

The three links you posted are third-party write-ups of what is supposed to have been (but, again, no links to the actual research with the data) research. But, there's nothing for anyone to scrutinize and review.

I'm completely open to be proven wrong on anything and everything. Show me the data. Data. Not articles. Data.

 

[londonsteve]

I am writing this on my ipad just after. I had a skype conversation with a friend in Australia, I embrace modern technology and hopefully understand a lot of it. I have had a computer since the late 80's.
My gripe is that and I have seen this many times, people relying on technology instead of using it a just another tool, for example drivers arranging a multi drop route and spending 20-30 minutes imputting the address's even though they do the same area everyday so should have the knowledge instantly or the the mechanic who has a car come in with the engine misfiring, first thing he does is get the fault reader, not open the hood to see of it one of the basics. Even the landscape gardener who has just quoted me for a new fence, used a digital laser measure (took 2 men) then took pictures and then took 3 days to email me a virtual picture and the quote (this was for a 50 metre x 1.8m high close boarded fence)
I would have used a 100m tape and gave the price within 10 minutes.
It just really baffles me that some people just dont want to learn, just think of the clerk who cannot give the right change without checking it on the till.

 

[EOC_Jason]

It just really baffles me that some people just dont want to learn, just think of the clerk who cannot give the right change without checking it on the till.

Oh god, and what about when you give them extra change so that you can get like a $5 with a few pennies back vs four $1 and a ton of pocket change. They look at you like, "You gave me too much..." Then you have to explain to them WHY you did that... *sigh*

 

[ZRX61]

Not 100% sure about the degree deal. My Wife is Harvard class of 2000 and I have made far more than she has every single year.

Maybe show her how to leave the kitchen once in a while

 

[KinzeMech]

Ha! I was an aircraft fuel systems specialist in the Air Force. My last maintenance commander had her degree in Human *********. She sucked at her job too.

Sounds like she learned the curriculum well.

 

[Murphy4570]

I am writing this on my ipad just after. I had a skype conversation with a friend in Australia, I embrace modern technology and hopefully understand a lot of it. I have had a computer since the late 80's.
My gripe is that and I have seen this many times, people relying on technology instead of using it a just another tool, for example drivers arranging a multi drop route and spending 20-30 minutes imputting the address's even though they do the same area everyday so should have the knowledge instantly or the the mechanic who has a car come in with the engine misfiring, first thing he does is get the fault reader, not open the hood to see of it one of the basics. Even the landscape gardener who has just quoted me for a new fence, used a digital laser measure (took 2 men) then took pictures and then took 3 days to email me a virtual picture and the quote (this was for a 50 metre x 1.8m high close boarded fence)
I would have used a 100m tape and gave the price within 10 minutes.
It just really baffles me that some people just dont want to learn, just think of the clerk who cannot give the right change without checking it on the till.

That's not really a good example. When I get a misfire in that's the first thing I do as well. Why? Because if I find a single cylinder misfire code, that narrows the possible causes VERY considerably!!! If I find a P0300 random/multiple misfire code, then I start with standard diagnostics from the top of the list of possible causes. No reason to waste time testing things that can't cause the problem if the ECM is narrowing your diagnostic path for you!

Knowledge is power. Time is money.

 

[KinzeMech]

Exactly!

Using the scan tool (when done correctly) isn't letting the computer do the diagnostics for you.

Using the scan tool first is collecting the full list of relevant symptoms, and then, once equipped with all the information, moving on to diagnosis. Would you want your doctor to interrupt you with his prescription before you've told him half your problem?

 

[wildhorsehans]

Maybe show her how to leave the kitchen once in a while

She works full time in her field and I still make twice what she does.

 

[JimVonBaden]

I did.

They contain no information as to exactly what information was collected or from whom. There is no "empirical" data to be viewed. The possible fact that people with a college degree earn "X" more than people without proves nothing.

What was their degree in? Are they working in their field? What year's census was this tied to (the results from the 90's would be very different than those from the 70's, and they are only two censuses apart). Did they count ONLY people that were old enough to have completed enough schooling to earn a degree?

The three links you posted are third-party write-ups of what is supposed to have been (but, again, no links to the actual research with the data) research. But, there's nothing for anyone to scrutinize and review.

I'm completely open to be proven wrong on anything and everything. Show me the data. Data. Not articles. Data.

How about proving yourself right if you don't like my links. Finding links to direct scientific data should be easy since you are so well informed.

Jim

 

[meburdick]

How about proving yourself right if you don't like my links. Finding links to direct scientific data should be easy since you are so well informed.

Jim

I have nothing to prove to anyone, including you. I have my own "anecdotal" experience to work with.

If you'd care to provide actual supporting data for your argument, I'd love to read it. Otherwise, I'm quite content.

 

[JimVonBaden]

I have nothing to prove to anyone, including you. I have my own "anecdotal" experience to work with.

If you'd care to provide actual supporting data for your argument, I'd love to read it. Otherwise, I'm quite content.

OK, I have no problem with that. But if you were so content, why did you challenge my opinion, which was backed by more than pure personal observations?

Jim

 

[meburdick]

OK, I have no problem with that. But if you were so content, why did you challenge my opinion, which was backed by more than pure personal observations?

Jim

I'll revert to a previous post I made and paraphrase...

Your "supporting evidence" wasn't evidence at all. The fact that you added links to external sites that made claims didn't bolster your own beliefs / thoughts / opinions with any facts. If you had listed those links as being from "others who share my thoughts" or similar, I would likely have seen it differently.

If you're going to post supporting information, it should truly be supportive. There are enough reasons and ways that people in general have either not been able to gain or have flat-out lost the ability to question, reason, and conclude on their own.

The biggest issue with items like this is that all of the "data" that's out there is Trailing Indicators. There are little or no Leading Indicators that show where we're going. And I see future direction as much more important than where we've been.

 

[meburdick]

In the post above, "you" doesn't necessarily mean anyone in particular. It should really be interpreted more as "people in general", at least in some cases.

 

[JimVonBaden]

gotcha!

Jim

 

[Ironcrow]

Really? We're bemoaning losing the following skills: buggy whip maker, barrel stave maker, zeppelin pilot, chambermaid, etc.?

Well, no. Except zeppelin pilot. Zeppelins are just cool!

 

[info2x]

From my whole 26 years of experience (alive) I've found that more things tend to be "black boxes" now. I push these buttons (well simulated buttons on screens now) and I get what I want. The problem is that more and more people don't understand how the tools works and thus how to interpret the information that it gives the user. Just my $.02

 

[EOC_Jason]

barrel stave maker

Whiskey would taste pretty crappy without that skill !!!!