Low Bidder Hack AC Install, NEED ASSISTANCE!

[Jme128]

Low Bidder Hack AC Install, NEED ASSISTANCE! UPDATED

**This install was a warranty type issue, I had no control on the subcontractors** The unit is a Trance XB13 & Trane Xr80 furnace

Need your opinion on the water heater line but the AC lines are hideous. Zip ties and some type of control wire to secure it to the trusses. The guy comes back today because he was missing the new thermostat and a different gas pipe to the furnace.

There is also trash (vent tubing, tape backing strips) in the attic witch I believe he would not remove as it goes back 10-15 away from the unit and probably an inconvenience.

UPDATE: GC says he spoke with the AC people. Since they are not complete with the job, it will be corrected. GC made it seem everything is OK but the AC tech said everything was completed except the thermostat and the gas line for the furnace. They were ready to leave the job if it wasn’t for the gas line and thermostat. I caught them in a lie and exposed the poor install yet they are back peddling from the facts.

UPDATE 2: I spoke with the owner of the AC Company. We have a walk through after the tech is complete from the job. The tech arrived today and I handed him a list of problems including a new problem with the coil drip pan leaking where the PVC connects to the pan. He claims the wire and zip tie was temporary and never was permanent, ********...

Question, can someone upload a photo of the correct way to secure the AC lines to a truss?

 

[D.J.]

I'd send these pictures to Trane and ask if this is what a typical install is suppose to look like?

 

[orca8589]

I'll send a link to this thread to a plumber friend of mine, and see what he says. IMO, What I see in your pics is NOT what a real install should look like.

~Chris

 

[SiGmA_X]

I'll look at my girlfriends water heater today, I think the hard line runs behind the unit, and stubs out off the wall a few inches, and then has a flex line to the heater. Makes it easy to replace the water heater if ever needed. It also has a shutoff somewhere near by, I forget exactly.

Looks like a case of 'you get what you pay for' - I hope you didn't pay much! That *****!

 

[Jme128]

wow guys, didnt know it may be this bad.

 

[pop pop]

Looks like their first job!

 

[philjafo]

Wow I hope you had some vasoline cause you got boned. I would suggest getting a real HVAC company to give you an estimate for fixing your brand new ac and then call the insurance company or warranty or whoever paid for that mess. Try and get them to pay for the repairs or else your going to have problems with your system, likely right after any warranty runs out.

 

[Jme128]

I'll look at my girlfriends water heater today, I think the hard line runs behind the unit, and stubs out off the wall a few inches, and then has a flex line to the heater. Makes it easy to replace the water heater if ever needed. It also has a shutoff somewhere near by, I forget exactly.

Looks like a case of 'you get what you pay for' - I hope you didn't pay much! That *****!

Thats was my first thought, Sig. Then I thought that maybe sweating the pipe may be hard so close to the wall.

 

[koditten]

There is no way a machanical inspector would pass that work!!!

Stop any checks you wrote!!!

 

[SiGmA_X]

Thats was my first thought, Sig. Then I thought that maybe sweating the pipe may be hard so close to the wall.

I had that thought too. I think how it should be done is install the pipes, then install the heater, and connect the flex pipe? I am NOT an expert, or even a novice, in this area. I just know what it looks like in the OP vs a couple inspected installs I've seen!! Actually my current house has a gas line, and an electric heater (flood, PO replaced gas with electric...Unsure why, maybe the exhaust wasn't up to new-code, and it runs through the middle of the house out the roof..anyway) and the gas line goes to a convenient location and is capped. I assume from the end of the line, it had a flex tube installed. The location of the line DEFINITELY indicates that you could remove/install the water heater without cutting the line tho.

 

[Grumpy365]

**This install was a warranty type issue, I had no control on the subcontractors** The unit is a Trance XB13 & Trane Xr80 furnace


Question, can someone upload a photo of the correct way to secure the AC lines to a truss?

I don’t have a picture, but if you have ever seen "UniStrut" you will get the picture.

I would cut pieces of strut, Bolt the solid-slotted side against the truss, and clamp the line against the strut with a cushion clamp.

 

[rharman]

I'd send these pictures to Trane and ask if this is what a typical install is suppose to look like?

+1 on this. But, I'd probably phrase it stronger than that. This is DEFINITELY not a proper installation.

Who was the primary contact (the person who selected the sub)? Home warranty company or something? They need to be notified about it too and that you expect a DIFFERENT contractor who is qualified be dispatched to make it right.

 

[indyokie]

Water heater T&P going around heater and thru the back wall doesn't concern me- having sight to where and when it's going to release is what concerns me- perhaps this goes into your laundry area or another place it is more visible. Overall it's nice to see in copper and looks like it going downhill, so that is of less concern.

As for the A/C I know it may not be neat, but since these line sets are unrolled - it's not easy to get straight and exact. I put mine in and suspended with tie strap used on the flex duct.

 

[Jme128]

+1 on this. But, I'd probably phrase it stronger than that. This is DEFINITELY not a proper installation.

Who was the primary contact (the person who selected the sub)? Home warranty company or something? They need to be notified about it too and that you expect a DIFFERENT contractor who is qualified be dispatched to make it right.

I notified the GC, he was pissed but not surprised (why use them!?!)

I called him after starting this thread. I am somewhat relieved knowing that something is going to be done but it’s not over yet. My GC is not paying them until this is done properly, that’s his words. He said he is calling the owner of the company to discuss the problem which was 3 hours ago.

 

[philjafo]

Water heater T&P going around heater and thru the back wall doesn't concern me- having sight to where and when it's going to release is what concerns me- perhaps this goes into your laundry area or another place it is more visible. Overall it's nice to see in copper and looks like it going downhill, so that is of less concern.

As for the A/C I know it may not be neat, but since these line sets are unrolled - it's not easy to get straight and exact. I put mine in and suspended with tie strap used on the flex duct.

The ac lines are very easy to install straight and neat using correct hangers. When I see corners cut on the easy stuff that you can see, what corners did they cut that are not so easy to see, did they triple evacuate the lines? Sweep with nitrogen while brazing so you don't get oxidation inside the lines? Was the charge weighed in or did they just set it to "beer can cold" by feel? A pinhole leak where they brazed the lines might take 1 or 2 years to be a problem, but acid formed by leftover moisture might take 3 or 5 years and destroy the insulation on the windings of the compressor. Improper installation is the number one cause of premature failure of HVAC equipment.

 

[nehog]

That hot water heater blow-off valve doesn't meet code in any way, shape or form. Who ever did that should be taken out back and...

 

[rharman]

That hot water heater blow-off valve doesn't meet code in any way, shape or form. Who ever did that should be taken out back and...

I don't know about Arizona but I assume that water heater should be strapped. Here in earthquake country we sure have to do so.

 

[Jme128]

The ac lines are very easy to install straight and neat using correct hangers. When I see corners cut on the easy stuff that you can see, what corners did they cut that are not so easy to see, did they triple evacuate the lines? Sweep with nitrogen while brazing so you don't get oxidation inside the lines? Was the charge weighed in or did they just set it to "beer can cold" by feel? A pinhole leak where they brazed the lines might take 1 or 2 years to be a problem, but acid formed by leftover moisture might take 3 or 5 years and destroy the insulation on the windings of the compressor. Improper installation is the number one cause of premature failure of HVAC equipment.

+1 on your comments. After seeing their work, it’s hard to believe what they say.

 

[philjafo]

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=270151&d=1339812434

Had to do a little digging but I found a pic of what an attic air handler should look like.

 

[plumbstupid]

That hot water heater blow-off valve doesn't meet code in any way, shape or form. Who ever did that should be taken out back and...

I'm curious. What do you see in that picture to indicate the T&P is not installed to code?

 

[Tarheelgarage]

what the hell kind of installers did that ****? a couple of drunks?

You will have to cut the lines if you ever need to replace the water heater?

Piss poor!!!!!!!

 

[Steves32]

Typical low bid work.
Did they pull a permit?

 

[Bruce4310TX]

Come on whats wrong ?? thats normal for Texas Yee Haw. really thats just horrible its sad what some folks try to call quality yeh Piss poor.

 

[nehog]

I'm curious. What do you see in that picture to indicate the T&P is not installed to code?

Most places no elbows allowed. That thing is the biggest mess I've seen! And good luck trying to replace that water heater's T&P valve with that Rube Goldberg plumbing on it!

Here is an example of one local's code:

• The T&P relief line must be pitched downward and fitted with a union so that it can be easily disassembled and repaired.
• Flex lines shall not be permitted on T&P lines. The pipe for the T&P must be a full ¾” in diameter and corrugated flex lines reduce the inside diameter.

(emphasis mine) And the T&P maker's web site:

http://www.watts.com/pages/support/tp.asp?catId=64

(No)
Excessive length over 30' (9.14m), or use of more than four elbows or reducing discharge line size

I counted five elbows, I can't tell if it is properly sloped, I can't tell if the end is visible or not.

In short, the installation is as bad as the OP thinks it is: horrible beyond belief!

 

[Highbeam]

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=270151&d=1339812434

Had to do a little digging but I found a pic of what an attic air handler should look like.

These photos kill me. Most homes in my area have 4:12 pitch to their roofs. You can't stand up in the attic. Then you blow in 20" of insulation and nothing like that can be installed. It's easy to set up a huge heating system consuming the whole floor of an attic that resembles an airplane hanger.

 

[MrMark]

T&P may be to code but it is a hack job. That setup needs a top mount t&p so it can go cleanly out the other side. That is why they make top mount t&p.

 

[JakeKohl]

You need to insulate the heat traps on top of the water heater too - it looks like they took a good bit of the hump out of them with that installation but it may be enough to function OK.

 

[Jinks]

Not going to be much help, but it's kind of nice to know that my contractor found work out in AZ after we ran him out of Florida............Sorry 'bout that.

 

[plumbstupid]

Most places no elbows allowed. Actually most places allow as many elbows as you want. That thing is the biggest mess I've seen!I've seen worse, but it does look like ****. It would probaly pass inspection in Arizona And good luck trying to replace that water heater's T&P valve with that Rube Goldberg plumbing on it! It is my opinion, If you are not capable of cutting and sweating pipe, you should probaly leave the safety devices on the W/H alone

Here is an example of one local's code:
The International plumbing code nor The Uniform plumbing code require unions on the relief valve drain. I'm sure some few jurisdictions do, but I've never seen one and I have worked all over the US.

http://www.watts.com/pages/support/tp.asp?catId=64
I counted five elbows, I can't tell if it is properly sloped, I can't tell if the end is visible or not. Only 4 elbows are visible, one is a 45 and they are calculated diffrently

In short, the installation is as bad as the OP thinks it is: horrible beyond belief! Like I said I've seen worse, the above poster is correct a W/H with a top mount T&P should have been used

It looks bad, but I believe it would pass inspection on the basis of the T&P relief valve. Which means if it went to court the OP would be forced to pay and also liable for legal fees.

I would be more interested in knowing why a thermal expansion tank was not installed.Phoenix, Arizona is under the Uniform Plumbing Code, which requires a means to control thermal expansion be installed. If the W/H tanks fails because of thermal expansion next week, the warranty on the tank will be voided if a expansion tank is required and not installed.

W/H flex connectors are not all they are cracked up to be. Sure, they make it easy to replace a water heater, but they should always be changed when the water heater is replaced. I don't use them at all. I hard pipe all water heaters and install dielectric unions at the top along with a thermal expansion tank.

 

[nehog]

It looks bad, but I believe it would pass inspection on the basis of the T&P relief valve. Which means if it went to court the OP would be forced to pay and also liable for legal fees.

I suppose the safe thing is to check the local codes. Since the manufacturer says it is not acceptable to do what they did, that alone would likely sway any court to the OP's case.

I would be more interested in knowing why a thermal expansion tank was not installed.Phoenix, Arizona is under the Uniform Plumbing Code, which requires a means to control thermal expansion be installed. If the W/H tanks fails because of thermal expansion next week, the warranty on the tank will be voided if a expansion tank is required and not installed.

It's possible the expansion tank is just out of the picture... That was my assumption--it doesn't have to be right at the water heater, it can be further down the line. Mine (and the few that I do for family) are usually three or four feet away.

W/H flex connectors are not all they are cracked up to be. Sure, they make it easy to replace a water heater, but they should always be changed when the water heater is replaced. I don't use them at all. I hard pipe all water heaters and install dielectric unions at the top along with a thermal expansion tank.

That is certainly the safest and most professional way to do it.

 

[MrMark]

plumb, thermal expansion not required on open systems. Where I live in CA no tank.

 

[danski0224]

Re: Low Bidder Hack AC Install, NEED ASSISTANCE! UPDATED

**This install was a warranty type issue, I had no control on the subcontractors** The unit is a Trance XB13 & Trane Xr80 furnace

Question, can someone upload a photo of the correct way to secure the AC lines to a truss?

By warranty issue, do you mean a home warranty?

There is no "correct" way to anchor the line to the trusses, but rest assured, zip ties and bailing wire are not in the top 10. Unistrut and pipe clamps would be a first rate install, but that is very unlikely in low end/any residential work.

Simple copper plated steel 1.25" two hole pipe clamps will work just fine, and they are less than $1 each. The copper lines and control wire can be zip-tied together inbetween clamps.

Little effort seems to have been made to unroll the lineset neatly, but that can be a real challenge in an attic. It can be starightened out some once it is unrolled.

All that torn pipe insulation is also a problem, especially in an attic. That should be replaced.

 

[koditten]

Please explain this thermal expansion tank requirement. This is required when using a water heater to provide a heat source for radiant heat. I have never heard it required for domestic hot water.

 

[brewchief]

Please explain this thermal expansion tank requirement. This is required when using a water heater to provide a heat source for radiant heat. I have never heard it required for domestic hot water.

An expansion tank is needed if there is no place for the water to expand as it heats, in many cases it can expand into the well tank or city water main, if any type of check valve is installed(could be in a water meter or water softener) then a tank is needed to provide room for expansion. If you see regular seepage from the T&P valve that continues even with replacement of the valve its a pretty sure sign that a tank is needed.


I don't see a problem with the water heater, yes you will have to cut and solder the T&P valve line if you replace it, IMHO if you can't solder a simple line like that then you shouldn't be replacing a water heater. I'm no fan of the flex connectors but they shouldn't be a code violation.

The A/C install is pretty ugly, I have my doubts that that poor system will live a long life.

 

[koditten]

This must be a fairly new code requirement. It makes sense. Learn something new every day.

 

[plumbstupid]

plumb, thermal expansion not required on open systems. Where I live in CA no tank.

Not yet but you will. I worked on a project in NewPort Beach last year and they required expansion tanks.

Now since most water departments are installing check valves at their meters and requiring pressure regulators all domestic water systems are a closed system.

Here is a pretty good article explaining it for those who have never heard of it.http://www.wvdhhr.org/phs/water/thermal_expansion2.pdf

I'll try to get some pictures of a W/H tank failure from thermal expansion. It's pretty impressive.

 

[MrMark]

Plumb, if you put a pressure regulator on your incoming line at the house does that little device constitute a check valve or at enough like a check valve for the system to be considered closed?

 

[Jme128]

Typical low bid work.
Did they pull a permit?

They were suppose to, was thinking about calling my city and asking them to stop by when they leave.

 

[duneslider]

I would call the city for an inspection for sure. If they didn't pull a permit and get inspections it will end up being your problem later down the road.

Poor craftsmanship that's for sure.

 

[Twiggss]

wow...