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Low compression, motorcycle engine, many questions

_jerry_

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Jan 12, 2014
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So I'm hoping you guys can help. I have a 2015 Daytona 675 (Triumph) that has low compression in cylinder #1. I got a donor engine that had a bad crank connecting rod bearing but was otherwise good (I didn't test compression on this engine...)

  1. Can I just take the barrel off of the donor engine (part #17 on the attached diagram) and put that on my engine?
  2. OR should I pull the crank and bearings from my engine and put them on the donor engine
  3. If I have low compression in one cylinder, should I also replace that cylinder also in addition to the barrel?

My engine is off a 2015, the donor is a 2013, they're the same generation engine; the 2015 may have some electronics upgrades, but the physical components are the same.

Thoughts, something entirely different? Should I just take the barrel (part #17) in to get resleeved (the engine came with sleeves from the factory)?

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unslow1

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Roger hit my first thought. The very first thing is to figure out why you have no compression. I've seen it be as simple as something stuck under a valve seat.
 
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_jerry_

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That's a good point - no, i don't know 100% why it has low compression. i did rule out the valves I believe - they're all within spec and and seemingly operating fine.

The leak-down test just showed low compression in cylinder #1
 

Old Man Roger

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That's a good point - no, i don't know 100% why it has low compression. i did rule out the valves I believe - they're all within spec and and seemingly operating fine.

The leak-down test just showed low compression in cylinder #1
Not saying this is your problem, this is just an example, but a tiny piece of carbon on the valve seat can keep a valve from seating properly. It would probably still seem adjusted.

What were the readings from all 4 cylinders?
 

gunguy

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Squirt some oil through the spark plug hole in the low cylinder then re-check the compression. If it goes up, then most likely the valves are good and there's a problem with the rings / cylinder.
 

oldmxracer

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Did Your bike run ok before this problem or is this a project that you bought recently?

Was this a compression test or a leak down test ?
 
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_jerry_

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I will have to post up the compression test results tomorrow - I believe I have the values on the paper from the shop. I was originally trying to get it done through the warranty but Triumph denied it claiming it was normal wear and tear.

It is a 3 cylinder, but I wasn't gonna make a big deal of it!
 
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_jerry_

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Did Your bike run ok before this problem or is this a project that you bought recently?

Was this a compression test or a leak down test ?

it was running good and then all of a sudden, it started to stall if I came up to a stop sign and didn't keep it idling at a higher RPM. I brought it in to the shop as it was still under warranty and they did a compression test.
 
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_jerry_

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Squirt some oil through the spark plug hole in the low cylinder then re-check the compression. If it goes up, then most likely the valves are good and there's a problem with the rings / cylinder.

This was going to be my next question - is there a way to test if it's the rings/cylinder or the valves.
 

driftpin

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it was running good and then all of a sudden, it started to stall if I came up to a stop sign and didn't keep it idling at a higher RPM. I brought it in to the shop as it was still under warranty and they did a compression test.

Why are you having to supply parts? It's under warranty? Doesn't the manufacturer cover parts & labor?

Your comment:
3. If I have low compression in one cylinder, should I also replace that cylinder also in addition to the barrel?

I believe the Triumph has a multiple cylinder single casting. The "cylinder" and the "barrel" are the same thing. That is, unless you are referring to an individual cyl sleeve pressed into the multiple cyl casting.

You need to have an examination of the cause of the low compression before you go changing/swapping parts willy-nilly.

The leak-down test usually helps in diagnosis to see if it's rings or the valves/guides.
 
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bwringer

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This was going to be my next question - is there a way to test if it's the rings/cylinder or the valves.

Outlined in post #6.

Get a compression tester. Test compression.

Put a teaspoon of oil into the cylinder.

Test again.

If compression goes up significantly, then the rings may be bad; the oil will temporarily create a better seal.


You can also detect bad intake or exhaust valves with a stethoscope; pull the engine plug and turn the engine slowly with a breaker bar while listening for air wheezing through the intake and/or exhaust valves. This is not a perfect test; you have to have some idea of what's normal.


Overall, I'd step back and verify everything for myself; I would NOT trust what the shop told you, especially since they refused a warranty repair on a bike that's supposedly in warranty.

What do the plugs look like? If the rings are bad, they'll likely be black with oil.

Take the valve cover off and rotate the engine. Everything look OK and going up and down OK? Any valves sticking?

Also, the symptoms you describe sort of don't sound like low compression. An engine with low compression can get hard to start, but once it's warm and running it wouldn't really die suddenly.

It might also be worth investing in a cheap bore scope (mine was $15 on Amazon) and take a look inside the cylinders. If the cylinder wall is scored or the piston is visibly damaged, well, now you know.

Drain the oil -- is there metal in the oil?

Whether you can make one good engine out of two bad ones is as yet unknown; but VERIFY what the shop told you. Don't just go ripping stuff apart on the say-so of a shop.

There's no good way to put this, but... motorcycle shops are jam-packed with horrible mechanics. Good ones are out there, but they're busy and a little hard to find.
 
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bwringer

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Neglected valves will make it get gradually harder and harder to start, but won't make an engine that was running fine one day suddenly start dying at stoplights the next day.

The OP didn't mention hard starting and did mention the problem started suddenly. We don't really have more details.

That pattern fits something like a bad sensor, a bad injector, a bad coil, something like that. Of course, if you had a bad injector that leaked gas into a cylinder, then that could wash out the oil and cause low compression as a secondary effect. (So if you just replace the cylinders and piston rings, it will happen again in a few minutes.) Overall, you need to personally figure out exactly what happened before delving too deep.

Also: to the OP, what kind of experience do you have with the innards of engines? Do you mostly know cars, do you mostly know carbureted bikes or dirtbikes, or diesel locomotives, or what? Or is the inner world of engines new to you? It will help the GJ Hive Mind if we have some idea of what sort of knowledge you're starting with.

And I will wholeheartedly agree that a Triumph forum may have more specific advice and might have some useful knowledge about failure patterns.
 
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_jerry_

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Neglected valves will make it get gradually harder and harder to start, but won't make an engine that was running fine one day suddenly start dying at stoplights the next day.

The OP didn't mention hard starting and did mention the problem started suddenly. We don't really have more details.

That pattern fits something like a bad sensor, a bad injector, a bad coil, something like that. Of course, if you had a bad injector that leaked gas into a cylinder, then that could wash out the oil and cause low compression as a secondary effect. (So if you just replace the cylinders and piston rings, it will happen again in a few minutes.) Overall, you need to personally figure out exactly what happened before delving too deep.

Also: to the OP, what kind of experience do you have with the innards of engines? Do you mostly know cars, do you mostly know carbureted bikes or dirtbikes, or diesel locomotives, or what? Or is the inner world of engines new to you? It will help the GJ Hive Mind if we have some idea of what sort of knowledge you're starting with.

And I will wholeheartedly agree that a Triumph forum may have more specific advice and might have some useful knowledge about failure patterns.

The valves have been adjusted a few times in the last 2 years and it was due for another adjustment. The dealer techs said one valve was tight but within spec, the others were all within spec.

The problem did start somewhat suddenly - I would roll up to a stop sign and it would stall as I let it idle. It would almost always start back up quickly. It would do this even after being fully warmed up - my commute is 44 miles one way and all highway; as I would exit the highway to go to my place, it would stall at the stoplight. it would start back up and I'd be on my way. After about a week of this, I brought it in one weekend to have it looked at while it was still under warranty (but Triumph denied it because they couldn't find a catastrophic cause - it looked like "normal" wear).

The shop said it would require about 12 hours to diagnose more fully at $130/h and that would just be to figure out what was wrong, not fix it.

On top of that, reading through the one paper I have (of tech/mechanic notes), they said the stepper motor is out of spec (which handles idle...). I'm starting to think as I dig in to this all more deeply that their techs and service manager people aren't that bright. If I'm bringing it in for a stalling problem while it idle's at the light and the stepper motor handles idling...
 
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_jerry_

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I did post about this on a couple of the Triumph/Daytona specific forums, problem is, Triumph is not a popular sportbike manufacturer and those forums seem to be dominated by young guys or not really used, so I would get a handful of replies over a few weeks and none of the info/questions provided were all that helpful.

I've already had more insight and useful info here than all of the other posts I originally asked about this on the Triumph specific forums combined.

Edit: added the bold not as Triumph is a popular cruiser bike, but the Daytona wasn't that popular
 
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_jerry_

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Why are you having to supply parts? It's under warranty? Doesn't the manufacturer cover parts & labor?

...

Triumph said it was normal wear and tear because there was no single/catastrophic point of failure. Though it has (or had) a two year, unlimited mile warranty, they said this was normal wear and tear and that's not covered by the warranty.

I talked to a couple of lawyers and got mixed messages about being able to successfully sue in small claims court. I may still do so, but I would have to spend a lot of money to get it diagnosed and then fixed so I have appropriate damages to ask for.
 
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_jerry_

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Have you tied a different dealer? I know they aren't on every corner.

Unfortunately this happened just before the end of the warranty, so when I got it to the dealer, it had maybe 2 weeks left on the warranty and it's now off of warranty.

Now, a different dealer may have better mechanics, but I'm trying to limit what I spend on this bike as I do have another one (suzuki this time around)
 

trojandj

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Have you tied a different dealer? I know they aren't on every corner.

100% find a new dealer. A good dealer usually can find a way to get this covered once they diagnose it. Even easier as presumably you have a paper trail showing this occurred prior to the warranty period expiring.

Also I would be upset at my previous dealer. If the stepper motor is out of spec, and the bike is under warranty, I would expect the stepper motor to have been fixed free of charge.
 

gnpenning

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I have more questions than answers.
How many miles on the bike?

A cylinder leakage test will give you far more information than a compression test. Adding a little oil to the low cylinder is a quick check when you are doing the compression test. To go back and do it I would just do a cylinder leakage test.

If you have the paper work from the original visit it still might be covered under warranty. You will need to make a call to the regional service manager and have a visit.

As others have mentioned, you may have a compression problem but something else is causing the dying at idle issue. You have most likely more than one issue.

12 hours to diagnose? ? Run far run fast from that shop.
 

F124C

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Someone had a thread a while back about his problems with this engine, iirc he had a bad crank bearing, (not sure if he had any compression issues). At least it will give you a look inside one of these engines.

www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306947&highlight=Triumph+675

I'd second the advice of others here re. finding a better dealer and pursuing a repair under warranty. Normal wear and tear? my a**! Maybe the dealer declined to repair under warranty and quoted a very high price for diagnosing the problem in order to persuade you to trade the bike in against another?

If you strip the engine yourself, another dealer and Triumph themselves probably won't want to know or do anything under warranty.

AL.
 
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LandofRath

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Have you tried the oil trick as posted by a few members now?
A leak down test would be very useful as also posted by other members.
From the sounds of it you only had a compression test. Just because the valves
appear to be good, does not mean they are.

Start there and get back with the info. from there it shouldn't take to long to figure out whats happening.. if you were local I would bring you a leak down test and check it.
 

niget2002

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If I had an engine under warranty that died at a light, I'd be running this issue up the chain with the dealer. If the manager didn't want to fix it, I'd be calling the regional manager. I don't know how more 'catastrophic' you can get than an engine randomly dying at a light. Especially with today's electronic everything.
 

Git

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I would definitely take it to another dealer. The problem should have been properly documented at the first dealer while it was still under warranty

Here is a fairly inexpensive compression tester ($40) that I have used and it works well:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EVU8JS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Definitely do the oil trick to help narrow down the problem if you are going to pursue this on your own
 

oldmxracer

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A properly done leak down test can tell You a lot, if it is valve related You will usually hear the air escaping out the throttle body (intakes) or out the pipe (exhaust)

Do You have the ability to check the cam timing ?
 

Loose Ctrl

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Jerry, where are you located? If you're close to me I will lend a hand. I own a lot of motorcycles and have been a moto mechanic for the past 12 years part-time. I'm working on a small shop now with hopes of getting a large shop built in the next few years.



What you describe really does sound like a valve has gone tight, or carbon foul as mentioned previously. If one was tight on tolerance at last check, it should have been adjusted. Exhaust valves like to go tight from all the heat and beat they take, and sometimes they get tight quick, especially on bikes with lean carbs or EFI. I went through this on my new 2014 Honda CB500X. It wasn't supposed to have a valve adjustment until 16,000 miles. I ended up with running issues at 7500 miles. By 9000 miles, I couldn't hold interstate speeds and my idle was low. The FI kept the bike from stalling. The issues came up quick. My bike ran fine. It sat for a few days. Then I get on it and suddenly, I can't hold 65mph on the highway with the throttle pinned.
 
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_jerry_

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Jerry, where are you located? If you're close to me I will lend a hand. I own a lot of motorcycles and have been a moto mechanic for the past 12 years part-time. I'm working on a small shop now with hopes of getting a large shop built in the next few years.



What you describe really does sound like a valve has gone tight, or carbon foul as mentioned previously. If one was tight on tolerance at last check, it should have been adjusted. Exhaust valves like to go tight from all the heat and beat they take, and sometimes they get tight quick, especially on bikes with lean carbs or EFI. I went through this on my new 2014 Honda CB500X. It wasn't supposed to have a valve adjustment until 16,000 miles. I ended up with running issues at 7500 miles. By 9000 miles, I couldn't hold interstate speeds and my idle was low. The FI kept the bike from stalling. The issues came up quick. My bike ran fine. It sat for a few days. Then I get on it and suddenly, I can't hold 65mph on the highway with the throttle pinned.

I live in Southern California so the bike is, or was, my daily driver.

It has just shy of 45,000 miles.
 
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_jerry_

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A properly done leak down test can tell You a lot, if it is valve related You will usually hear the air escaping out the throttle body (intakes) or out the pipe (exhaust)

Do You have the ability to check the cam timing ?

Maybe, but I doubt it. I've never attempted to check the timing - my dad was a diesel mechanic so while I did learn a lot about engines, I unfortunately relied heavily on his skills!
 
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_jerry_

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If I had an engine under warranty that died at a light, I'd be running this issue up the chain with the dealer. If the manager didn't want to fix it, I'd be calling the regional manager. I don't know how more 'catastrophic' you can get than an engine randomly dying at a light. Especially with today's electronic everything.

this was my thought and I attempted to contact the Triumph customer service line. I left a few messages and they did return one but declined to help.

I haven't ruled out suing them in small claims court and reading through this chain, I'm more inclined to do so now.
 
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_jerry_

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Have you tried the oil trick as posted by a few members now?
A leak down test would be very useful as also posted by other members.
From the sounds of it you only had a compression test. Just because the valves
appear to be good, does not mean they are.

Start there and get back with the info. from there it shouldn't take to long to figure out whats happening.. if you were local I would bring you a leak down test and check it.

I have not yet, but plan on doing so this long weekend. I will probably grab a cheap compression tester from Harbor Freight (I know a lot don't always like them, but as I'm not a professional mechanic, it should work for me)
 

LandofRath

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I have not yet, but plan on doing so this long weekend. I will probably grab a cheap compression tester from Harbor Freight (I know a lot don't always like them, but as I'm not a professional mechanic, it should work for me)

Their compression tester works but you would be better suited to get a leak down tester.. It gives you a lot more info.. There are some pretty easy plans online to make one if you don't mind a simple project.
 

oldmxracer

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Maybe, but I doubt it. I've never attempted to check the timing - my dad was a diesel mechanic so while I did learn a lot about engines, I unfortunately relied heavily on his skills!

jerry, I mean no harm in saying You might be a little over Your skill level at present, time to learn !

In My humble opinion a compression tester will verify low compression but the next step I think would be check valve clearance and cam timing, next would be a PROPER leak down test on the cylinder in question.

You will have to learn cam timing and valve clearance to do any work to Your motor if it has to come apart.

Here is a vid of a bit older model of what it takes just to change valve clearance.
 

junkyardwarrior

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I don't oft post here, but my day job (ok, career) is such that I have some experience with this kind of thing. Warranty. Motorcycles.

First off, you've verified low compression and leak on #1 cylinder. Have you physically taken the bike to the dealer and asked them to perform a diagnosis? Most warranty statements require you to take failed machine to the dealer if you want any warranty work to be performed.

Secondly. "Normal wear & tear". I don't deal with Triumph but the other 4 brands that I DO deal with, yes, wear and tear is, in fact, a specific exclusion from warranty. That being said, there is no definition of "normal wear & tear", so that leaves the definition up to (1) the dealer and (2) the manufacturer. On my lines, if I have a question as to whether the manufacturer can/will assist a consumer with his equipment that is still within the warranty period, I call the manufacturer-or in the case of one mfg in particular, they have an electronic form that you fill out, with pictures, and send it into them for pre authorization. They don't require it but it's good practice to do it (as a dealer) BEFORE going too deep into a repair job. After all, it looks a LOT better from the customer's standpoint if dealer calls and says it'll be $300 to do teardown & inspection, and if warranty denies the repair based on what is found during said teardown & inspection, you'll be out that $300....but on the other hand, if they ok it, you don't owe a dime. That's called communication with the customer and is a priority-or should be anyway. So, what is Triumph calling normal wear & tear? Are they insinuating that these things normally wear out within 2 years' time? THAT is the question....since I don't have anything to do with Triumph.

Thirdly, If you're tearing into the engine already, warranty is not likely to help you. Repairs-if you expect any warranty to help, are generally to be done by an authorized dealer ONLY, and generally that also means that they're NOT going to just give you parts so you can fix it....they have to do 100% of the repair, for many reasons. Also, expanding on that, if you have any modifications that might increase the power level, they can deny based on that, too. People sometimes misunderstand the magnussen-moss act (I think that's what it's called)--which is designed to protect consumers, but if you read into the whole act, it doesn't specifically protect you from everything...so if you have, for instance, an H2 and run out & put a pipe on it, burn the engine down, then the manufacturer deems the engine failure to be caused by the aftermarket pipe, you're going to pound sand. Simply adding the aftermarket pipe doesn't void your warranty. The effects of the pipe, however, can be the source of a denial of claim, again based on what the effect caused-and trust me, they'll get the engineers involved along with doing coolant and oil scans, requesting service records, etc. Worth mentioning-especially with motorcycles since almost all of them get customized in some sort of way. Personally, if "they" (mfg) doesn't ask, I don't tell. But if they do, I can't/won't lie to them.

Now to the technical side. Doing a leakdown test is easy. Remove spark plug and have some way to keep the engine from turning. Turn engine to TDC compression stroke on the cylinder you're dealing with, in this case #1. Set your leakdown tester, then attach it to the hose that is in the plug hole. THe engine WILL want to turn over, so be ready for it. What's the gauge say? Is the engine cold or hot? Ideally you do a cold test, then add a small amount of oil to the cylinder through the plug hole, rotate the engine over a couple of revolutions by hand, then back to compression stroke TDC, then retest leakdown. If % comes way down, like from 20% to 5%, then it's piston or ring related. If no change or very little change, it's valve related. Easy. You'd want to see less than 10% leakage on a cold engine ideally. Hot, 5% or less. Be careful with the oil though and rotate the engine by hand only. Don't try to use the starter. I have seen connecting rods bend and break by guys using the starter to disperse the oil. Compression test is inconclusive on a lot of bikes because of the automatic decompression mechanism that many have. Sure you'll see 150 psi, but if you disable the auto-decompressor, it'll be 250+, so you see how it changes things. Most crotch rockets don't have ACR's and most cruisers do. Crotch rockets have typically have late intake valve closing point and consequently don't have a high cranking pressure which would negate a large starter, where a lot of cruisers-especially twins and singles-have "small" camshafts with an earlier intake valve closing point, which equals high cranking compression-and would need a BIG starter to keep from kicking back & destroying parts, so they put an ACR on them to avoid the huge starter. Do not know if Triumph uses an ACR or not. Now, if you have a cylinder leak, why? What is the actual cause of the leakage? Ring gap opened up? Broken ring(s)? melted piston? Worn cylinder? Then...if one of those, why? That's the questions that the manufacturer wants to know.

On the stuff I deal with, usually it's valve related....lack of maintenance..clearance closes up on the intake valves and then the valve is held open, engine still running, further wears the face and/or seat, more clearance, compression drops and eventually it won't even run on that lung. Quite common on anything that actually runs longer than 5000 miles. 88% of crotch rockets are total loss before 5000 miles....and yes that's a statistic....which is one reason insurance for all motorcycles costs so much.

Anyway...enough rambling...hope you can make heads or tails of it all.
 
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