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Low Voltage Wet Rated Cabling - CODE

mobiledynamics

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LV is not talked much in here over in GJ electrical forum but ...

For example, when running wire in conduit, you must use THHN per code, and can't use the wire in a SO cord, even though technically it's THHN...

When running Low Voltage in Conduit underground, is flooded-wet cable required by code & Or is it the latter, meaning anybody that knows the right think to do will run flooded cable (whether it be cat5 or RG coax).

Still looking, but so far, I'm not seeing 18/4 flooded cable. Might just have to go with lawn-irrigation DB cable. I'm using the 18/4 in my LV run to extend a alarm panel..
 
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rockwithjason

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the wire inside so cord is not thhn. as far as coax and such, the rule of thumb is that the insulation levels must match, ie if the 18/4 is 300v then everything else must be 30ov too. the wire must be designated by the manufacturer as being for use in wet locations, not necessarily(sp) flooded. there are many wet location cables that are not flooded.
 
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mobiledynamics

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I was under the impression that the wire in SO was thhn rated BUT the jacket was not marked/identified as such, hence it could not be used in conduit. Same goes with the wire in romex/ac. No markings, but same stuff.
 

alfredeneuman

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THHN = T(thermoplastic insulation) HH (90°C) N (nylon coated)
Suitable for only dry installations

THWN = T(thermoplastic) HW (suitable for wet locations at 75°C, dry at 90°) N (nylon)
Suitable for wet locations

The voltage involved has no bearing on the wire's rating for wet locations
You've got the right idea with direct burial sprinkler wire for your alarm.

EDIT: Flooded Cable means the Gel Filled cable. Try as little as possible to handle the gel, and be sure to thoroughly wash you hands after using it. It's made to taste bad to moles, gophers etc. and is disgustingly bitter to humans.
 
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sands35

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Big box THHN is typically dual rated with THWN. It won't say it on the shrink wrap, but it does on the wire.
 
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mobiledynamics

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Actually, I thought - MOST thhn on the market is dual-tri rated..MTW, THWN. Not all, but most.

Not sure on th control/signal cable I'm looking for, I've yet to find a flooded version - but I have not done a very thorough look. However, on the usual stuff, Cat5e, Cat6, RG6/11 - I can get this in flooded burial, flooded shielded burial, flooded shielded burial armoured fairly easily
 
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Mustang51js

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As far as I know there is no code for low voltage wires,like landscape lights you can just lay it on top of the ground if you wanted to.
 

rlitman

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I was under the impression that the wire in SO was thhn rated BUT the jacket was not marked/identified as such, hence it could not be used in conduit. Same goes with the wire in romex/ac. No markings, but same stuff.

SO, no. Romex, MC, AC, yes.
 

ishiboo

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As far as I know there is no code for low voltage wires,like landscape lights you can just lay it on top of the ground if you wanted to.

Yup. The NEC essentially does not cover low voltage (except a few circumstances and where it involves line voltage) and few municipalities have low voltage code/requirements.
 

The mean fish

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I ran a couple runs of 18/4 to my shop when I ran power (different conduit) and I used plain old 18/4 plenum low voltage stranded. That was 3 years ago and I've had no trouble with it.
 
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mobiledynamics

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That Mean Fish -

It's my approach all conduits take on some level of moisture . Some more than others.....

I know THWN is wet rated.

I've yet to do much digging, but I did not see 18/4 flooded off a quick search.
I know landscape DB 18/4 exists. I'll probably look for one that is shielded.
DB rated at least means it's meant to take on some water....or be more resistent.

I'll have to spend some time looking to see whats out there. Just wondering how the rest of ya'll treated LV in underground conduits...
 

G_P

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Not sure what your project is but sprinkler cable should work. Its low voltage wire made to be buried and used with sprinkler valves.
 

justsam

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I would use CAT6 flooded, and just parallel the pairs to approximate the circular mils of 18.
It is cheap, readily available in flooded.

I am assuming that the alarm panel signal are for power, bell etc. and not data communication.
 
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mobiledynamics

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Justsm -

The bonding of the pairs is what I considered.

I AM IN NO MEANS a alarm guy, but maybe someone knows a bit about RF, etc...
I understanding shielded in the applications of data, but this is truely a shielded run - connectors, ports, panels, etc - they are a sysimatic approach.


MOST alarm vendors, if not something like a signaling cabling used for a door and a ~pulse/relay~ box for a maglock, etc. They generally use shielded wire (I'm talking from seeing this on the commercial side of things) out of the multiple offices I've had.

However, they don't do sh1t with the shielding.
All they do is use the conductors in the wire to connector their sensors, etc but there is NO tie in to the shielded, whether it be one just one end, both or nothing
What's the point of benefit of running shielded then ?
 
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LifeLongWNYer

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I've been in the security business for a while, largely in industrial settings, and have a couple of things to pass on.

No conduit which contains line voltages can contain any low voltage wires. So, if you are running 110/220 ( or anything else ) power in a conduit, you can't pull in a 22/2 for your telephone, or an 18/4 for an intercom to the kitchen or your wife's sewing room. Now if you want to convert your telephone, internet or cable TV so it runs over fiber optic cable, you CAN put that ( FO ) in a conduit with power, because the FO won't carry electricity.

Generally in the security business, if a wire is used for current, meaning to operate a door lock, to report back the status of a door alarm contact, or signals from a "request to exit", etc, those functions use unshielded wire. If the wire carries data, for example from a card reader, it IS shielded. They do make some cable called "composite" which contains the conductors for both locks, contacts, etc., AND the data from a card reader, and usually the conductors are bundled by function. The bundles for devices aren't shielded, the one with data wire in it, is shielded.

Conduit is cheap, and considering the cost of it, if you are burying one for power between your house and a new garage, bury TWO, and put in only a pull string in the extra one. That way, no matter what you want to use the spare for later on, you can pull in the proper wire with the string. Even if you don't intend to ever run a low voltage circuit to your garage, in the event that your power circuit blows, you already have a conduit for a new circuit without having to do any excavation.

On string: put a string in your power conduit too, in case you want to add another circuit later on. In all of our industrial projects, we always wrote the specs to include a string in ALL conduits and also an extra conduit with a string in it.

I think wireless is overtaking the IP ( internet protocol ) world in many places, but if you want to run CAT5E or CAT6 for your garage computer, ( don't use CAT5 any more ) ( remember the 328' / 100 meters limit for CAT wire) put only "water blocked cable" in the conduit. As several members have said, water always finds a way into underground conduit, ( except maybe in Texas or Arizona ) and while the water won't harm most PVC or Teflon cable, it does effect the impedance of the wire and will cause problems with the data arriving in a form useful to the computer.

Lastly, when you buy the wire for your underground runs, also buy a roll of "cable trace" That is a tinfoil-like tape, generally red on one side, but made of aluminum foil. After putting a couple of inches of backfill over the conduit, lay a stretch if this over that fill, but before finishing with the rest of back fill. Run the ends of it to the foundation, then up to the surface. If you don't like the looks of it, you can cover the ends, but leave them where they will be easy to find when you need them.

First, if someone is digging, and IF the operator is watching where he is digging, he will see the red foil before he punches the bucket teeth through your conduit. ( HOPEFULLY ) But the biggest reason for the trace is so that years later, when you want to do some digging in the yard, but you don't remember where the conduit is, you will be able to find it. Just go to a rental store and rent a cable sniffer, a wire hound, or whatever they call them in your part of the country, and you will quickly and easily be able to locate your conduits.

Someone may argue that some of these points are not required by the NEC, but they all lead to a more professional job, and one that is less trouble prone as it ages. If you are planning to stay at that location for a long time, the last thing you want is trouble.

JBP




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PRH44

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Shielding acts as a Faraday cage absorbs magnetic flux/static/ Noise and the like that can reek havoc on low voltage signals. The shield needs to be grounded on one end usually the source end to avoid ground loops, this will route the unwanted currents to ground. Communication or low voltage control cables that cannot tolerate the interference from nearby AC conductors or static charges are a candidate for shielding. This might be a 0-10 volt control signal, 4-20 MA current loops, Data, Comm, Mod-bus, etc
Low voltage power circuits on the other hand operating at 12 to 50 volts may not require shielding as they can tolerate interference better.
Any area below grad is considered a wet location. Even if in conduit and under concrete. Any cable used in this way needs to be rated for a wet location.
 

PRH44

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I would agree with most of your comments LifeLongWNYer as they good practice. I would like to examine this statement for the sake of conversation only
No conduit which contains line voltages can contain any low voltage wires.
While I am not recommending this in all cases. The code does allow low and high voltage in the same conduit ( High and low voltage are terms that have multiple levels of usage) This rule will allow 12 volt and 480 volt circuits to be installed in the same conduit as long as both sets of conductors have a voltage rating for the highest voltage in use. This is not always a good idea but there are circumstances in which this is practiced.

High and low voltage terminology is also used as follows.

Low voltage: A class of nominal system voltages 1,000 V or less
Medium voltage: A class of nominal system voltages greater than 1,000 V but less than 100,000 V
High voltage: A class of nominal system voltages equal to or greater than 100,000 V and equal to or less than 230,000 V

Paul
 

LifeLongWNYer

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Okay, PRH, it sounds like you know the NEC better than I, but what confuses things is that we work all over the country, and it depends on the AHJ as to which version his area uses. Some use an old one, some use a more current version. It is rare to find an AHJ who enforces the MOST recent version.

In the security business we generally don't use anything over 220/240 AC and we consider anything under 70 as low voltage. In your example, it sounds logical, ( even though I doubt it ) but why would you want to run 12 volts through a cable with insulation rated for 480? The theory behind the code is that if a pair with 12 volts and a pair with 480 are in the same conduit, and they experience a short and a cross over, the 12 volt pair can end up with 480 on them. That might be pretty energizing to a security technician troubleshooting a bad door lock.

Another reason why we keep them separate in client sites, is that many security installation firms employ "alarm technicians" to install and wire security devices. They aren't electricians, and can't work on stuff that has line voltages.
 

PRH44

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what confuses things is that we work all over the country, and it depends on the AHJ as to which version his area uses.
It can be very tough trying to follow the local codes when one works in many different locations. Some AHJ have some really crazy rules or interpretation of the code. I had one that would not allow water pipe bonding which is crazy!

but why would you want to run 12 volts through a cable with insulation rated for 480?

On most of my projects we will be specified or choose to use THHN/THWN wire on almost everything. THHN is rated 600 volts so inherently any low voltage circuits will have a 600 volt rating. When I say low voltage I am referring to Control wires for Gen-sets, Occupancy sensor devices, signaling, elevator controls, HVAC controls. Low Voltage battery back up emergency lighting.
One of the locations were you will run into shared raceways with many different voltages is in Elevator control wire-ways and travel cables.
Explosion proof installations were multiple raceways become very expensive quickly. Often voltages are mixed mainly for motor control applications.
Where we install Fire alarm systems, Intrusion detection, surveillance, Tele/data systems, this is always in separate conduits and or cables. Much as you have described.
 
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