Show me chinese cman that doesn't spread on the open end. Can't. Even Danahar wrenches spread. Last good Cman was Easco made. Cman has been relying on the past for 25 years for it's reputation.
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Lowe’s Craftsman Wrenches- Poor Quality
- Thread starter DaveInHouston
- Start date
Show me chinese cman that doesn't spread on the open end. Can't. Even Danahar wrenches spread. Last good Cman was Easco made. Cman has been relying on the past for 25 years for it's reputation.
That's hearsay.
If you're spreading the open end of a wrench, you should be using the other end...
sberry
Banned
Cman has been crude junk 1980 or earlier. This is 40 years. They were crude but durable, never had one spread as I can recall. The only one I own spread is a snap. Someone really abused it though. When they went to China it appears the dies went along with them. I havnt bought the new, they look the same but I got 1 of about every model they made, some more than the and worked them in ag and oil patch.
Not on the hobby car,,, used by multiple men, more than most single users could, never broke one, they still ain't spread. I bought the biggest set they had in 80, was disappointed when they came, crude claw looking things but we hit them hard. The sockets were another matter as were/are the ratchets and the tube wrenches. The finer one in this pic is pre 80, old ones I had, the claw 80.
I am not a collector so don't really know one from another but hit enough of them with hammers and used cheaters with a fukkit attitude to know how they held up.
Not on the hobby car,,, used by multiple men, more than most single users could, never broke one, they still ain't spread. I bought the biggest set they had in 80, was disappointed when they came, crude claw looking things but we hit them hard. The sockets were another matter as were/are the ratchets and the tube wrenches. The finer one in this pic is pre 80, old ones I had, the claw 80.
I am not a collector so don't really know one from another but hit enough of them with hammers and used cheaters with a fukkit attitude to know how they held up.
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Yep. If they can hit the bar Danaher set for Craftsman in 2009-2010 at minimum and meet the price point + inflation... I'd go back to buying them. That said, they should offer the tools at 2 different setups.. OEM and Retail. Do what Home Depot did.. sell a box of sockets or wrenches in a plain box. 200 sockets in a box for what.. $99? If SBD can get it done with USA made and hit the $199-249 price point for the same sockets.. I'd bite.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
How do you do alignments then? Spin the inner tie rod with the boxed end? I dont think many use the open end of a wrench by choice. All sorts of applications require the open end, because the box end doesn't fit.
The only brands I've found to not **** and spread/slip easily are wright and snap on. Craftsman, gearwrench, Marco, cornwell, taiwan William's, sunex, everything else slips pretty easily. The Wright and snap on usually just tear the metal off. They also tend to pop back into shape afterwards, not spreading forever and becoming worthless.
Craftsman usa wrenches were cheap and generally useable. I would be surprised if the modern stuff is much different that what I used in the mid 2000s working on my first car.
sberry
Banned
It's a hard sell to me. They are well worth it new or used but just don't need any more and,,, I use my cman or any other I happen to own on a tie rod if I don't use an adjustable.
sberry
Banned
When I first came here I note which experience was similar to mine and when the stories were different what it was. Most of the negatives about cheap wrenches seemed to be speculative. I got a few snaps, some others from serious real brands. The snaps been worth it but not cause of the open but the box with flank on some smaller common ones.
I don't think the jaw on the open is really better than the rest, it might spring back but that might be due to the fact it gives first. It's so super rare I really stress up an open. I use them like others on the rod ends but they are not all that brutal anyway, never damaged a wrench doing it.
By the year 2000 already had 20 years in, 20 on old shat when I did a lot the hard way, lots more by hand when I simply pulled on it vs figuring out an easier way.
I don't think the jaw on the open is really better than the rest, it might spring back but that might be due to the fact it gives first. It's so super rare I really stress up an open. I use them like others on the rod ends but they are not all that brutal anyway, never damaged a wrench doing it.
By the year 2000 already had 20 years in, 20 on old shat when I did a lot the hard way, lots more by hand when I simply pulled on it vs figuring out an easier way.
sberry
Banned
It should be easier for you to show me the spread ones than me show you all the ones that dont.
IndyGarage
Well-known member
I always have to laugh when someone complains about "quality" by looking at the thing.
In my opinion the quality of a tool has zero to do with the look of it, and everything to do with the function of it. Look at the true craftsmen on youtube - Jimmy Diresta, South main auto repair, AvE, Essential Craftsman, - None of them use "pretty" tools. All of them use the heck out of tools and make or repair fantastic things.
In my opinion the quality of a tool has zero to do with the look of it, and everything to do with the function of it. Look at the true craftsmen on youtube - Jimmy Diresta, South main auto repair, AvE, Essential Craftsman, - None of them use "pretty" tools. All of them use the heck out of tools and make or repair fantastic things.
Farmall450
Well-known member
Lol yup!
i have no idea why i am responding to this. maybe just for perspective.
i am not a fan of current import cman tool wrenches.
however, some of the last us made raised panel wrenches are damn good. i have a couple sets. the jaws do not spread and the satin finish is very nice. the edges of the beam were milled flat. while nothing flashy they are comfortable to use and hold up well. sadly those are no more.
continue on with cman bashing.
i am not a fan of current import cman tool wrenches.
however, some of the last us made raised panel wrenches are damn good. i have a couple sets. the jaws do not spread and the satin finish is very nice. the edges of the beam were milled flat. while nothing flashy they are comfortable to use and hold up well. sadly those are no more.
continue on with cman bashing.
kald
Well-known member
Its painful and disappointing to say but anything lately I look at with the Craftsman name at Lowes is junk.
I bought a craftsman 3/8 drive ratchet at Menards recently, and the internals gave out the first time I used it. Got another under the “lifetime warranty” and it gave out the first time I used it. Now on number 3....debating if I should just save myself the hassle and drop it in the scrap bin...
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
Sent from my iPhone using Garage Journal
More like...it isn't possible that SBD is paying China enough to make excellent tools because that would detract from the profit margin.
I shitcanned them 25 years ago. DOE that came in a cman socket set.
I also shitcanned the balky autoreversing ratchets 15 years ago after wondering why I kept them in the drawer just to go around them all the time looking for a real ratchet. Only have the 1/2" left. It sits on my rotisserie permanently to loosen it when I want to rotate it.
mrjaw14
Well-known member
I have made in USA craftsman raised panel wrenches and they are terrible. They are short, not machined well, and round stuff off...even the box end. I wouldn't even consider the china made copies. buy some proto, wright, sk, armstrong, snap-on, or williams and don't look back!
OP
DaveInHouston
Well-known member
I’m going to jump back in here and probably get thrashed for it. But here goes.
I don’t understand some of the criticism of folks that may use a “cheaper” brand of tool.
A little background on me: I was working in my father’s machine/mechanic shop when I was five years old, fetching and cleaning, evenings and weekends. I was rebuilding engines, soup to nuts, by the time I was thirteen. My father, as a trained Navy Master Machinist (WWII Combat vet) was a mean old cuss, but he made me do it right. I was a trained, certified auto mechanic and millwright at 22. Doesn’t make me smart, or right, just means I worked for a living and worked hard. Me and my buds looked longingly at the Snapon tools and a few others but Hell, wrenching never paid enough money, at least for me, to afford them. So we bought the best we could afford, which in my case, in the seventies was generally Craftsman. At my peak, in the late seventies, I had many thousands of dollars invested in tools. Not just wrenches but dial indicators, calipers, and on and on. When it came to precision tools I did stick with Starrett because there was really nothing else that would do the job and hold up to the abuse.
Sorry guys, rant over. But I do have a bit of a soft place in my heart for the old Craftsman wrenches. They helped me to make a living for a lot of years. Only broke one that I can remember. Put a cheater pipe on a 1/2” drive breaker bar (dumb) and broke a 1” socket. Took it to Sears and they gave me a new one. I’ve double wrenched a bunch of cman wrenches and never broke one.
Now I wrench for fun. Imagine that!
I don’t understand some of the criticism of folks that may use a “cheaper” brand of tool.
A little background on me: I was working in my father’s machine/mechanic shop when I was five years old, fetching and cleaning, evenings and weekends. I was rebuilding engines, soup to nuts, by the time I was thirteen. My father, as a trained Navy Master Machinist (WWII Combat vet) was a mean old cuss, but he made me do it right. I was a trained, certified auto mechanic and millwright at 22. Doesn’t make me smart, or right, just means I worked for a living and worked hard. Me and my buds looked longingly at the Snapon tools and a few others but Hell, wrenching never paid enough money, at least for me, to afford them. So we bought the best we could afford, which in my case, in the seventies was generally Craftsman. At my peak, in the late seventies, I had many thousands of dollars invested in tools. Not just wrenches but dial indicators, calipers, and on and on. When it came to precision tools I did stick with Starrett because there was really nothing else that would do the job and hold up to the abuse.
Sorry guys, rant over. But I do have a bit of a soft place in my heart for the old Craftsman wrenches. They helped me to make a living for a lot of years. Only broke one that I can remember. Put a cheater pipe on a 1/2” drive breaker bar (dumb) and broke a 1” socket. Took it to Sears and they gave me a new one. I’ve double wrenched a bunch of cman wrenches and never broke one.
Now I wrench for fun. Imagine that!
Junkdrawer Dog
Well-known member
When Bob Lutz returned to GM as a consultant, he examined several examples of current production. He found body panel gaps and alignment to be terrible. Paint was rather dull (done purposefully to hide poor surface finish on panels) and cheap and poorly executed interiors. He asked "Why?". Management answered that "According to our market research, 90% of our repeat buyers don't care about things like that. They only want to know how deeply we can discount the sticker price and what kind of cheap financing is available ". I think current Craftsman wrench production fits that analogy. Just good enough to satisfy the customer base and ensure a reasonable profit margin. You want something better, shop somewhere else.
woody 73
Well-known member
I know some of have a lot of love for SBD, but some of the younger members will not remember when in the early 1980's they produced craftsman tools in China/Taiwan. I lost my love for them all those many years ago. You want good then pay more money and help out places like SK , wright and a few others.
BrandoJames
Well-known member
I used to be a DIY Craftsman guy, still have a lot of my old man's Craftsman USA sockets and SAE combo wrenches (great stuff, btw). But I recently had to swallow a bitter reality pill. Last year I bought a new Craftsman jack from a local Sears that was closing. The Craftsman jack failed after just 9 months of DIY use. Combine that with a high profile lawsuit against Sears/Craftsman for jack stand product failure, and I was done. I threw my Craftsman jack & jack stands in the trash.
When crawling under a two ton vehicle, you better have confidence in whatever brand you're using. A Daytona DJ3000 floor jack and Chicago Pneumatic jack stands (with locking pins) is what I'm using now.
When crawling under a two ton vehicle, you better have confidence in whatever brand you're using. A Daytona DJ3000 floor jack and Chicago Pneumatic jack stands (with locking pins) is what I'm using now.
sberry
Banned
Yes, I got a warranty 3/4 drive socket in 82 and it was Taiwan then. I think there was some kickback then and they got away from it for a while. Our local store was catalog then. Had to order it.
Legion Prime
Well-known member
I have a pair of VA Craftsman wrench sets (SAE & MM) that my father gave me in '01. Fast forward to '03, pulling an intake on an Audi there was an evap fitting that needed to be removed and a box end wasn't going on it without cutting the line and I wasn't paying for a new part. I grabbed the Craftsman wrench off my cart and while turning the wrench I watched the jaws spread while the fitting did nothing. Grabbing a Mac wrench from my box however yielded rather a different result. So yeah, USA made Armstrong Danaher RP Craftsman wrench, jaw spreading, saw it with my own eyes, barehanded no cheater bar/second wrench hooked on . . .
Y00PER
Well-known member
If SBD was making chinese/Taiwan craftsman tools back then, it was because Sears asked them to as part of a contract to make tools for Sears, because SBD didn't own craftsman back then
OP
DaveInHouston
Well-known member
This discussion about wrenches prompted me to dig through some of Dad's old tools in a box in the garage. Found basically a full set of Williams combo wrenches, half a dozen Bonney wrenches and three or four Vlchek wrenches. A couple of bon-e-con sockets were in the pile too. I don't really remember the Bonney or Vlchek.
I think the "new" Lowes Craftsman are going back for a refund this weekend.
I think the "new" Lowes Craftsman are going back for a refund this weekend.
Legion Prime
Well-known member
Nice! I'm not getting rid of my Craftsman wrenches/sockets anytime soon as they were all my dad's or gifts from my father but finding a Williams set? That's pretty awesome. I went through my dad's boxes and the only complete sets I found were Husky, but hey 2 sets of 90's era Husky wrenches? Nowhere near as nice as Williams but I'll take 'em! LOL
Early 80's China? You sure?
I know they had stuff from Japan from back then and earlier though...
And also Stanley got busted by the FTC for supplying other companies with tools (sockets) made in Mexico and marked USA...
woody 73
Well-known member
1982-1991
What tools Woody?
I didn't know China manufactured anything like that back that far. This needs to be entered into GJ Lore...
Having read through this thread so far I see firm evidence that the finish on the newer Cman wrenches in inferior to the older rough finish. Ok. I've seen no evidence that the new wrenches are functionally inferior. Sure we have people who say the older Cman wrenches aren't as good as SnapOn. Ok. Are they any better or worse than their peers? I've got some Kobalt wrenches I'm not overly fond of. Way to much electropolishing. Net result is very rounded edges of the open end. The new Cman have a rough finish but it also looks crisper than other big box wrenches. Perhaps that will make it functionally better. Absent some sort of test what we have here is appearance is when matters. Having grown up with a silver SnapOn wrench in my mouth (Dad's tools) I have a Pavlovian reaction to full polish wrenches. Still, when I put on my engineering head I can see that full polish makes me happier, it doesn't matter to the bolts.
Taiwan is an independent democracy, but "country" is a tricky word geopolitically...
I'm going to toss my 2-cents in just because it seems the place to do it.
My Dad was an aircraft mechanic for the Navy Yard for decades, with a brief interruption during 1942-45 when he was maintaining reconnaissance planes in England and France. He deplored Craftsman. Complained that the open ends would spread and slip, and that the ratchets were junk. He said the lifetime guarantee is meaningless when the ratchet fails after you've crawled 70 feet on your belly inside an airplane wing. Don't know whether he exaggerated on the distance, but I got the idea.
Now this was in reference to Craftsman during the "golden age" of the =v= stuff (Moore Drop Forging USA), late 1940s through 50s. He was not a tool polisher, nor a "Snap-on everything" guy, nor did he seem to have any specific loyalty to any single brand. He used a lot of FSN tools, some which found their way home and from which he made my first toolbox for me when I left home. The combo and offset DBE end wrenches he gave me were a mix of brands--Bonney, Upland, Proto, and Lectrolite TruFit (contract production without the brand names on them), a few snap-on, and a couple others I can't recall offhand. 1/2 and 1/4 Giller socket sets 1/2" was a Kilness ratchet (1/4" in a killer OD green box with a couple of Snappy military rats and a Walden). Not a Cman among them. A few of the screwdrivers having navy-gray handles and dull blade finish were incredible, completely bomb-proof, can't kill them, seems you could use them for chisels, still in fine shape today (wish I knew what they were).
Now granted, this was one man's opinion, but I'd have to say a qualified one. He thought all the post-war Craftsman were bilge.
This is just my report. I have no personal experience with them because he actually persuaded me never to buy Craftsman. Your mileage may vary.
My Dad was an aircraft mechanic for the Navy Yard for decades, with a brief interruption during 1942-45 when he was maintaining reconnaissance planes in England and France. He deplored Craftsman. Complained that the open ends would spread and slip, and that the ratchets were junk. He said the lifetime guarantee is meaningless when the ratchet fails after you've crawled 70 feet on your belly inside an airplane wing. Don't know whether he exaggerated on the distance, but I got the idea.
Now this was in reference to Craftsman during the "golden age" of the =v= stuff (Moore Drop Forging USA), late 1940s through 50s. He was not a tool polisher, nor a "Snap-on everything" guy, nor did he seem to have any specific loyalty to any single brand. He used a lot of FSN tools, some which found their way home and from which he made my first toolbox for me when I left home. The combo and offset DBE end wrenches he gave me were a mix of brands--Bonney, Upland, Proto, and Lectrolite TruFit (contract production without the brand names on them), a few snap-on, and a couple others I can't recall offhand. 1/2 and 1/4 Giller socket sets 1/2" was a Kilness ratchet (1/4" in a killer OD green box with a couple of Snappy military rats and a Walden). Not a Cman among them. A few of the screwdrivers having navy-gray handles and dull blade finish were incredible, completely bomb-proof, can't kill them, seems you could use them for chisels, still in fine shape today (wish I knew what they were).
Now granted, this was one man's opinion, but I'd have to say a qualified one. He thought all the post-war Craftsman were bilge.
This is just my report. I have no personal experience with them because he actually persuaded me never to buy Craftsman. Your mileage may vary.
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yatg
Well-known member
I bought a Cman wrench/socket kit from Lowes around last Christmas for the 5th wheel.
The wrenches in it have a totally different look than the OP's pictures in post #6.
Crappy pictures with all the glare, but they are mirror finished chrome.
The box says "Made in Taiwan".
No idea how they'll perform, but probably more than good enough for what I'll need them for.
The wrenches in it have a totally different look than the OP's pictures in post #6.
Crappy pictures with all the glare, but they are mirror finished chrome.
The box says "Made in Taiwan".
No idea how they'll perform, but probably more than good enough for what I'll need them for.
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allinon72
Well-known member
Quality aside, some of the value of older USA Craftsman is you could go into a store and buy what you needed, and the selection was vast. Break something and you just take it in and exchange it. In its heyday, browsing the tool aisles in Sears was enjoyable and the staff knowledgeable about the product. You felt good about the purchase because you were supporting workers from this country on multiple tiers of the supply chain. The new Craftsman brand doesn’t deliver near that value.
OP
DaveInHouston
Well-known member
I’ve got one of those Army issue OD green 1/4” Walden sets, and it has the little Snapon ratchet. It followed me home in ‘72 when I was a Nike Herc crewman and has been with me ever since. Would never part with it.
ibedayank
Well-known member
Mac tools is owned by Stanley
Mac Tools is an American company that distributes and markets professional tools and related equipment. It is headquartered in Westerville, Ohio, United States. The Mac Tools line consists of over 8,000 professional tools, including screwdrivers, ratchets, wrenches, and assorted air tools. Wikipedia
Customer service: 1 (800) 622-8665
Parent organization: Stanley Black & Decker
Headquarters: Westerville, OH
Founded: July 11, 1938
I think what happened was the quality went down because they had to meet the terms of the Sears contract. Kind like the western forge deal. Thing is like I mentioned In another post I got a lot of the WF pliers on clearance and they were not good, well at least not up to some years prior. Some of the Chinese replacement ones, while the lacquer costing is not necessarily even, seem stronger and more durable than the WF ones, the teeth hold up better.
Same goes for the USA made socket and wrenches. I got one of the 540 piece sets when they still had the 3/4 set included when they cleared them out (maybe 2005ish?). When they cleared out the last of the USA made stuff (2015?) I bought a small mechanics set. The quality was much more crude by then (not that the ratchet in those things were ever great).
As far as lobster claw chinese wrenches it’s more than just appearance, the heads are often awfully large in tighter spaces. I dunno who dreamed it up but it’s laughable on some of the worst, some are just mediocre.
Thing is they already had decent chinese suppliers back then already that didn’t make lobster claws (see attached Companion wrench pic). They instead went and used Apex for a lot of them. Though it seems they’re working with Apex again to some extent, the stuff they sourced from Great Star (see attached craftsman Ultimate collection pics) was better finished.
I think it’s less to do where it’s from and more to do with how well it’s made.
Stanley is making essentially the same stuff Sears is still selling but it’s supplied differently, and the Great Star stuff is better than the imported Stanley. The current Stanley craftsman stuff is largely run of the mill ordinary, expensive for what it is.
Ideally what you’d want them to do is offer The quality of older USA made craftsman that wasn’t junk. Since they are building a new factory perhaps it’s better to retire the old designs like the raised panel. It’s copied by others anyway so it’s not necessarily a unique identifier anymore.
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OP
DaveInHouston
Well-known member
Update: I took the set of new Lowe’s Craftsman wrenches back to Lowe’s and they graciously gave me a refund. They asked me why I brought them back and I told them they didn’t meet my expectations for quality for Craftsman wrenches. No harm no foul. I did get Dad’s old Williams wrenches out, cleaned them up, and they do look good.
I used to make a living with wrenches and they had to work. I’m old now and play with wrenches, and it is nice to use a high quality tool.
Excited about Craftsman setting up a new factory in Texas.
I used to make a living with wrenches and they had to work. I’m old now and play with wrenches, and it is nice to use a high quality tool.
Excited about Craftsman setting up a new factory in Texas.