LP Fireplace advice needed.

[wfopete]

My F-I-L has his mind set to get an LP vent-less fireplace to heat a stand alone 30x20 room. The unit will be located in Michigan so it will have to have some decent output. I've been surfing a bit looking for at units by I'm not sure what the pit falls are with these fireplaces. Does anyone have any experiance with these or perhalps recommendations on a good unit?

 

[toyotadriver]

Only recommendation I have is....don't do ventless. I had a ventless LP fireplace in the last house. It looked nice when running and it didn't take any electricity to run it but it added moisture to the house (and winter is a time when you don't want too much moisture in a house...increases potential of condensation and mold). It also added an odor....not a horrible odor but definitely decreased the air quality in the home.

Go vented. It's not as efficient but you'll actually like it.

 

[ducksface]

There's a very good chance ventless is illegal.
There's even a better chance that if it isn't professionally installed insurance will deny a claim.

We just had our ventless changed to a vented. We're still waiting on the fascia.
The ventless logs are different than vented. Ours developed a smell. I was going to hyperbake them, but just gave up and had a vented installed.
The ventless is now on a furniture dolly and lives happily with its new facade on the patio with a propane bottle attached.


Illegal almost everywhere now
Insurance will drop you if they ever find out, let alone you try to claim.
Smell
High humidity.(a gallon of propane burned creates six gallons of water vapor. You'll have to look it up for the exact conversion)

But:
Expect to pay $6,000 for a medium cost vented unit plus installation plus aesthetics. (ours is for backup in case of electrical outage)
Someone on GJ said they were forced to build a $10,000 exterior chimney when adding his fireplace.
Sooooo many better ways to heat a room.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

30' x 20'? Minnessota? Assuming a standard 8' ceiling and reasonable insulation, Without doing any numbers I bet you're looking at roughly 70k Btu. I've never seen a direct vent fireplace much over 40k...

If it's not finished living space I'd recommend a unit heater.

Tommy

 

[Jackfre]

Actually the DOE has "vent free" sizing guidelines. In Zone V, which is Michigan in an average constructed home with a thermostatic controlled vent free 99.9% efficient would require 3.85/cu ft. So 4800 cu ft=18,480 btu. The trouble with VF fireplaces is that they are consistently oversized. 18,000 btu in an exposed flame looks like two Bic lighters on low. Big flame sells, so most VF fireplaces are 30kbtu or over. The key to success in vent free appliances is to keep them clean especially the pilot assembly and to provide adequate combustion air. As to moisture, yes VF adds moisture, but in cold climates the air cannot hold moisture. I know that when I lived in NY or New England my wooden chairs began falling apart in January, so some ambient moisture is a good thing. Look at how many humidifiers are sold in the N to offset the dryness.
Properly sized, installed and operated VF appliances are good and safe. I do not like the fireplaces, but there are millions of them installed in the States. VF appliances are approved as "Supplemental Space Heating Applinaces". Once you buy it you get to define "Supplemental". I am a vented heater guy by training and inclination so I think vented is the way to go, but at an increased cost. You can run the vented product all day long if you please

 

[ducksface]

DOE is not IBC.
Check for laws in your state and county and insurance, not federal guidelines.

 

[Jackfre]

The DOE figures are sizing guidelines which are absolutely valid and valuable. VF are illegal in Canada and CA. Otherwise all 49 other states allow VF. Some municipalities discourage them, but within those 49 states they are legal.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I like ventless for backup heat or occasional use, but they are pretty awful as the sole heating source.

Excessive condensation and sooting can be expected eventually.

Phil

 

[Gila Monster]

Illegal almost everywhere now

No, not at all.

Most places have no laws against these.

 

[Easyjet98]

Don't go ventless. I have a new home and put in what builder recommended. I can't run it long because it gives me a terrific headache.

 

[p_mori7]

Concur with using a VENTED unit.

Direct Vent are very easy to install, also no need for electricity unless you want to use the fan.

35K btu will heat that room very nicely.

I have a 35k btu vented propane stove, it easily heats my whole house when we have no power. (30x40 split level).

 

[Randy in Maine]

I have this ~20K btu vented Vermont Castings stove in the house and it kept us warm for 10 years when they were the only source of heat.

http://www.vermontcastings.com/Prod...es/Stoves/Stardance DV/stardance_370x280.ashx

 

[engineer2]

I can't run it long because it gives me a terrific headache.

Ventless heaters exhaust carbon dioxide into the room. A headache indicates CO2 levels are getting too high.

 

[toyotadriver]

If you use cleaners around a ventless heater, make SURE you turn it off before using them!!

 

[03ranger]

A vent less fireplace is great; we had ours for over three years and use it as our primary heat source in our house. The only appliance in our house that is propane is the fireplace, all other appliances are electric. We use about 150 gallons of propane a year to heat our 2350 sq foot house. We love sitting in front of the fireplace every morning in the winter and enjoy the fire while having a cup of morning coffee. The fireplace only runs about three hours a day in the winter. And yes it does heat the entire house.

When installing a vent less fireplace, a “catalytic” fire log set is required. You do need to follow the requirement of the manufacture. The log set is not inexpensive; you’re talking about hundreds to a thousand dollars for the log set. You can set up the fireplace to turn on using a switch, remote control or on a thermostat or some combination of the three.

We live in Arizona and the vent less fireplace was installed when we built our house. Yes we do have CO2 sensors and smoke detectors located throughout the house, required by the building code.

When we installed our vent less fireplace in 2014 was about the same cost as a vented fireplace, the difference was either you pay for the venting of a fireplace or for the “catalytic” fire log set. It was kind of a tossup except for the fact the vent less was so much more energy efficient. The wife and I love our vent less fireplace.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Guys...

Just so we are clear...

Carbon Monoxide is CO

Carbon Dioxide is C02

One of them is a poisonous, flammable gas.

The other is not.

Phil

 

[ducksface]

Guys...

Just so we are clear...

Carbon Monoxide is CO

Carbon Dioxide is C02

One of them is a poisonous, flammable gas.

The other is not.

Phil

I truly and absolutely did not know CO was flammable unto itself. No fuel or outside percentages of other games are needed? Just plain old CO ignites like hydrogen?
I also never thought of it as a poison, I thought of both of them as asphyxiates. Is there an antidote?

 

[p_mori7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide

 

[p_mori7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

 

[ducksface]

I'm aware of the wiki need to satisfy some theories with some words that aren't an exact match.
I'd be more interested in a YouTube video of:
How to ignite CO with only a heat source.

I'm thinking flammable and combustible and explosive are three different things.
But as I said before, I am unaware. I am also untrusting of a written explanation versus a lab scenario.
Just as most people do not know that gasoline at certain temperatures and pressures extinguish flame, I'm certain it is listed as an explosive...because the vapor is explosive. Flour is explosive given certain and specific circumstance.

I want to know if commonly found, under common circumstances CO can do anything but sit quietly by itself.
Water is explosive if you crack it....

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Go watch the movie Backdraft.

In the scene where the room is on fire, but all the doors are closed and you see the fumes coming off all the combustibles....that's Hollywood showing you how carbon monoxide is formed in a fire where there is not enough oxygen to support complete combustion. Then the firemen open the door, the oxygen rushes in a KAWHOOOMMMMM! it all goes up.

Or...did you ever see in a real old movie where someone killed themselves by sticking their head in a gas oven and turned the burner on without lighting it? That was because the old "City Gas" that large city's were plumbed with before natural gas became available outside of production areas (late-50's through the 60's when the interstate pipeline system was built)...was "manufactured" by subjecting coal or coke to heat without oxygen and then plumbing the resulting gas throughout urban areas. The manufactured gas or "city gas" as some called it, was largely carbon monoxide, was certainly deadly....but was nice to use in an oven, because it would burn just like methane will.

If you tried to kill yourself in a natural gas oven, you'd need a tight seal around your neck to keep oxygen from re-entering...because methane isn't toxic.

As to the antidote...I think the answer is "no". They sometimes use hyperbaric chambers with carbon monoxide victims to force the gas out....but that's not an antidote. In high enough concentrations, carbon monoxide will kill in seconds.

Carbon dioxide is a bit more benign.

Phil

 

[ducksface]

So carbon Monoxide is not of itself flammable and since it doesn't have an antidote(as in is not chemically removed or altered), it isn't a poison.

I think that's what you just said.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

So carbon Monoxide is not of itself flammable and since it doesn't have an antidote(as in is not chemically removed or altered), it isn't a poison.

I think that's what you just said.

Read this from the CDC about CO being poisonous. Or maybe you're smarter than them too?

https://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm

And carbon monoxide is absolutely flammable.

Phil

 

[ducksface]

.'People who are sleeping or drunk can die from CO poisoning before they have symptoms.'

It sounds like a dumbed down explanation for people who don't know what an asphyxiant is.

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm not even sure I'm close to right. I'm saying, and I truly believe in them, that there are alternate facts.

The sky is not blue.

It's not an argument, or who's smartest I'm looking for.
I didn't know it was flammable and still don't.
I didn't know it was a poison and still don't.

By the definition provided, anything without respiratorable oxygen is a poison.

 

[Jackfre]

The way VF appliances operate is with an Oxygen Depletion System. The pilot assembly is manuf so as to prevent mis-alignment of the pilot flame and the thermocouple. As designed, when the system is operating just the tip of the thermocouple is bathed in the flame. Air is composed of 20.9% Oxygen. The rest is nitrogen and trace elements. The analogy I will use here is your cutting torch. When the VF unit is operating satisfactorily with 20.9% 02 there is sufficient contact of the pilot flame with the t-couple allowing operation. If in a confined space and inadequate make-up air, the percentage of Oxygen will drop. As the Oxygen level declines below about 18.5% there is not enough Oxygen for the pilot flame to reach the t-couple. Your cutting torch has a strong flame with the right mix of Oxygen and acetylene. Choke off the air side and the strong flame feathers off. The same thing happens with the ODS pilot. Once the T-couple drops out, it is a hard lock-out. I used to get customers calling saying their heaters kept going out. Crack the door or open a window. VF heaters do have the ability to shut themselves off in an unsafe condition. VF fireplaces are my least favored of the type, but there are probably a few million of them working the the States.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Don't go ventless. I have a new home and put in what builder recommended. I can't run it long because it gives me a terrific headache.

Ventless heaters exhaust carbon dioxide into the room. A headache indicates CO2 levels are getting too high.

If you have a headache, the CO levels are not getting too high, they're already too high. If it's rated for indoor use something is probably not right. Best not run it at all until you get it looked at unless you have LOTS of ventilation.


Just for the sake of my OCD, it's carbon monoxide, not carbon dioxide...

Tommy

 

[6768rogues]

A few years ago when I was in the code enforcement business for our county government, NYS made ventless heaters legal. Most codes that allow them require that they be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's listing (only a fool would do otherwise). If you study the literature, you will end up with a small heater in a large room with a window partially open to supply air. They are designed more as supplemental/decorative than serious heat suppliers. They are intended to take a little chill off and have the ambiance of a fire.
Personally, I would not have an unvented heater in my house. They give off massive amounts of water vapor and no matter how clean they claim to be, they still have products of combustion coming from them.
How much water? Propane is C3H8. Molar mass is about 44g. Water is H2O, at 18g. So, 4 * 18 / 44 = 1.6x. Thus, about 1.6lb of water per lb of propane. Density of liquid is 0.507, vs. 1 for water. 1.6*.507 = 0.81 gal water per gallon of propane. Continuously heating a large room will generate lots of water vapor that has to go somewhere, probably as condensation on the windows and in the insulation.
Main heat in a big room? I doubt that you will find one listed for that. Convince him to use a vented unit and let it run...

 

[03ranger]

6768rogues, thank you for providing some insight into the makeup of propane. I for one was not aware how much water is contained in propane, “about 1.6lb of water per lb of propane”. For many people this amount of water vapor would be a concern especially inside a house during the winter time. Being here in the northwest section of Maricopa County, Arizona, our only concern is the lack of humidity that we have. During the summer it’s not usually to have single digit humidity, except during the monsoons (summertime) and in the winter we might see 50 to 60 % humidity, unless it rains.

 

[ducksface]

Arizona humidity
Pics or it didn't happen
Edition.

2 percent knside
16 percent outside
And raining at the time.

I'm (probably wrongly) remembering a bag of Portland cement being in the 6% range.