LP Gas and Generator Experts - Please Join Me

[bmarshall1]

Next Saga Of The Never Ending House Remodel - Getting the LP Gas system running.

Been here 3 years and just now able to use gas (don't ask). The stove is hooked up and running fine - that's not the issue. I went to start the generator yesterday and it will crank, but not start on LP, >> but it will run on Ether.

I have the LP guys coming on Thursday to do a pressure and safety check but I want to be knowledgeable prior to their visit.

The generator is a Guardian (Generac) 15KW Model 04309. I have a grey 2 stage regulator on the LP tank, a green regulator on the house, and the genny has it's own regulator as well. The LP guy seems to think I may be 'over regulated'.

The run from Tank to house is about 100', the tank is about 5% full. The genny regulator has 2 wires coming form it that operate a fuel control solenoid, perhaps closing off the regulator when not in use.

Does this sound like an over-regulated issue or a bad genny regulator issue? I will have a professional come out if I can't fix it.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

Next Saga Of The Never Ending House Remodel - Getting the LP Gas system running.

Been here 3 years and just now able to use gas (don't ask). The stove is hooked up and running fine - that's not the issue. I went to start the generator yesterday and it will crank, but not start on LP, >> but it will run on Ether.

I have the LP guys coming on Thursday to do a pressure and safety check but I want to be knowledgeable prior to their visit.

The generator is a Guardian (Generac) 15KW Model 04309. I have a grey 2 stage regulator on the LP tank, a green regulator on the house, and the genny has it's own regulator as well. The LP guy seems to think I may be 'over regulated'.

The run from Tank to house is about 100', the tank is about 5% full. The genny regulator has 2 wires coming form it that operate a fuel control solenoid, perhaps closing off the regulator when not in use.

Does this sound like an over-regulated issue or a bad genny regulator issue? I will have a professional come out if I can't fix it.

IMO 5% full is empty.
Assumimg that your regulated correctly.

 

[PCustoms]

IMO 5% full is empty.
Assumimg that your regulated correctly.

Yep call for some gas before you call for service.

Is this a shared tank with the house stove, or its own tank?

 

[finn]

Agree ——5%=empty. Have the LP guys bring the tank truck.

 

[yeldogt]

You can't get proper pressure at that tank fill level.

I was told on a single application w/ one regulator ... going to 10% will still work -- but you enter the danger zone having to do a leak test if you are a will call customer. With larger tanks and duel regulators it's pushing 20%

I have a regulator at the tank and another at each use location as well. Generator / house/ outbuilding.

 

[sberry]

5% will run that genset. Crack the fitting open at the unit and see if you get any gas. Most run 2 stage reg the same as the house. It should have the inlet pressure listed on it near the connection. Gas pressure in the tank is the same, 5 or 50% till its out. It should be filled though, like a car its going to run out, no way around it.

 

[sberry]

I ran a 383 the other day on 5%, 200 hp.

 

[Bretny]

Service guy is coming to come and tell you to get gas, charge you and leave. How dumb would you feel?

We also dont know the gauge is super accurate either. Your 5* may not be Sberrys 5*.

 

[sberry]

I also have pressure gauges installed for some trouble shooting reasons. I have had stuck level gauge and pressure eliminate any guess at some poor time. Especially remote and working over the phone.

 

[gungatim]

Is this the first time running the genny on propane? it takes FOREVER to purge the lines.

my gen has a 6' hose and when I change the tank it takes a crazy long time to get it to run. any air at all in the lines, even if you smell propane, will not let it run.

I have the same issue on my hanging furnace when I change tanks, have to hold the pilot button down for a long time, until my thumb is numb usually before it will light.

 

[bmarshall1]

I'm sitting in the parking lot so I'll have to make this brief, the lp guy is coming to do a pressure test on the house So they can approve filling the tank, this is the first time the tank will be filled. He is going to come out regardless because we we have a stove that needs to run. They also told me that 50% or 5%, You will still have plenty of pressure to run everything until it is basically near zero. I've got the distance from the house regulator to the generator is only about two feet, I would think a dozen extended crank team intervals would be enough to purge it.

I have yet to crack the line from the house regulator to the generator as it is extremely tight, I will work on that one again. The generator regulator as a solenoid on top of it that opens and closes that is getting power and I can hear it click, I believe it also has a vacuum line from the engine so it requires a vacuum to operate as well?

 

[sberry]

Yes, some equipment has vacuum. It's to ultimately close the reg when it's not running. Pull on it a little with your mouth, crack all these lines to see if fuel is getting there.

 

[nadogail]

Why try to run any thing with only 5% fuel in the tank?

That's like starting a road trip with your needle bouncing on EMPTY.

 

[sberry]

He is just trying to start it, won't hurt a thing. Car holds 20 gallons, can start it on a gallon, even a quart.

 

[RedF]

If there's any liquid in the tank, there should be enough pressure to operate. Are you sure there is liquid? Most propane level gauges are not exceptionally accurate, particularly at the extremes of the range.

 

[metschers]

You should have a high pressure regulator at the tank(usually red) and a low pressure at the generator (usually green or brown).The high pressure gets the gas to generator and the low pressure drops the pressure back down to the generator to 11wc (propane pressure is measured in “water columns”).
I believe the regulator you’re referring to on the generator is a safety shut off solenoid.
Hope that help.

 

[bmarshall1]

UPDATE - the LP safety check was done yesterday. No leaks (good). But he stated whoever installed the system, like everything else done around the house, was not properly installed. Issues as follows -

The tank has a 2 stage regulator, Stage 1 from tank pressure (150 lbs?) to 10 lbs, stage 2 is from 10 to .5 lbs pressure. the problem is this runs through about 100' of 1/2 inch line to another regulator that is also a 1/2 pound regulator, then it goes to the 3rd regulator that is attached to the genny. So in other words I am feeding a 1/2 lb regulator with a 1/2 pound regulator. The 2 stg regulator was mounted upside down, no safety cap over the tank valves (tree falls and breaks off the valve, not good),exposed plastic line outside, genny flex/vibration line was mounted with a bend (supposed to be straight, and one or two other items.

They will come out and in a few days.

This is somewhat good news, although does not explain why I was not getting even a little whiff of gas at the genny carb. I will check the vacuum line and see if I can create a suction to let the gas flow.

 

[PCustoms]

Yep call for some gas before you call for service.

Is this a shared tank with the house stove, or its own tank?

Still open questions....

 

[bmarshall1]

Still open questions....

Sorry - shared 125 gallon above ground tank.

 

[bob15]

125 gallon is awfully small for a shared generator and home tank. Your generator probably consumes at least 2 gallon an hour when running at 1/2 load and would **** that tank dry in around 4 days. I would be looking to get a 500 gallon for a shared tank (or get a couple more 125 gal tanks and tie them together).

 

[bmarshall1]

125 gallon is awfully small for a shared generator and home tank. Your generator probably consumes at least 2 gallon an hour when running at 1/2 load and would **** that tank dry in around 4 days. I would be looking to get a 500 gallon for a shared tank (or get a couple more 125 gal tanks and tie them together).

Thanks Bob - good to know. I'll ask about a bigger tank.

 

[My Old Tools]

Yep, I have a 500 for the house and another 500 for the generator. When we get an ice storm or hurricane/tornado we can be out over a week easily.

 

[bmarshall1]

Hmmmm - now you all have me thinking. The last Hurricane we were w/o power for 3-4 days, and lots of people were w/o for much, much longer

Keeping this in mind, since I have (2) Honde ie2000 generators, how difficult would it be to add these to the system for small loads and save the big genny for running the AC?

 

[bob15]

Hmmmm - now you all have me thinking. The last Hurricane we were w/o power for 3-4 days, and lots of people were w/o for much, much longer

Keeping this in mind, since I have (2) Honde ie2000 generators, how difficult would it be to add these to the system for small loads and save the big genny for running the AC?

I would just look for a 500 gallon tank. I have a single 500 gallon tank that serves both the house and a 12kw generator. I have no issues.

My thought is if there is a hurricane or ice storm/blizzard headed towards me, I typically have a few days notice which allows me to check the tank level and order gas to top it off if needed.

Not sure about renting a 500 gallon tank, but with owning the large tank, there is typically a price break when filling it. At least in CT.

 

[sberry]

Yes, bigger is cheaper to fill. A 125 is too small. Even full it's not a lot. Low is really low. I have 2 500's and 3 1000's it saved a lot of work going to 1k. Gave larger delivery window and could buy some off season.

 

[Showkey]

As far as tank size, running a large genney, 200k heater and running dry or “every last drop of propane”...........better check the vapor point chart carefully. In a cold climate there’s a point where the propane will NOT vaporize fast enough to supply the BTUS to run the genny or the furnace.

 

[Busted_Knuckles]

That genny has a demand regulator inside, behind the battery, it has a plug you remove to put a manometer on it, to actually know what the pressure is right before the mixer. That is the simple solution, to your convoluted problem of trying to run this machine on a " empty " tank.

125 gallons is a joke, if you actually plan to run that genny. Do the math on your run time, it might motivate you to step up to a 1000 gals.

If I was at 5%, Id not call for a service call.. Id be calling for propane.

Ive got a 1000 and Im on the phone at 35%..

 

[bmarshall1]

As far as tank size, running a large genney, 200k heater and running dry or “every last drop of propane”...........better check the vapor point chart carefully. In a cold climate there’s a point where the propane will NOT vaporize fast enough to supply the BTUS to run the genny or the furnace.

Good info but not applicable to me, living in FL I'm not heating anything! (just 15kw genny and stove). I will ask my LP place about a larger tank.

 

[Bretny]

Hmmmm - now you all have me thinking. The last Hurricane we were w/o power for 3-4 days, and lots of people were w/o for much, much longer

Keeping this in mind, since I have (2) Honde ie2000 generators, how difficult would it be to add these to the system for small loads and save the big genny for running the AC?

Isnt hurricane season also AC season in FL?

Like stated above you should get your burn rate off the generator and convert it to how long your tank will last. Personally I would calculate only useing 50* of your rank. They only really fill them to 80* and the last 20* may not vaporize enough to supply your generator for very long at all.

At a burn rate of 1gal/hr and 62gallons of useable propane your under 3 days of non stop run time. That's pretty poor by my rough calculations.

How long does it normaly take to get a propane delivery in your area? How long does it take after a hurricane with down trees and power wires? Is the supplier even able to fill his tank after a hurricane? All things that need to be considered when judging how long your tank will last. Good thing you have a little honda generstor, at least you can possibly get gas your self.

 

[My Old Tools]

You don't get advance notice on tornadoes and ice storms generally. If a hurricane is coming, how many people are calling for gas? You need a dedicated tank for the generator so once it is filled, it's there until you have an emergency. The last thing you need is to be at 25% when something happens because you were cooking and heating water on it all summer. Mine are both underground now.

 

[bmarshall1]

Well - this is interesting. The company came out and I passed safety inspection, said everything looked good except the 2 stage that was overkill, then came out a few days later and filled the tank. ( I didn't think they were going to). Otherwise they were going to replace the regulator for me but have yet to call back with price, timelines etc...

Can someone smarter than me offer a little guidance. I have an 80 foot run from tank to house, the tank is 250 gal. The 15kw genny should be about 262,000 BTU's and the stove's largest burner is 15k BTU. So, I'm estimating a total need around 275,000 BTU/hour.

I can purchase a (red) Emerson Fisher 1st stage regulator R622H-DGJ , 8-12 psig Spring (to replace the current 2-stage). I already have a (green) 2nd stage they stated is good. In theory I am good to go at that point? Is there anything i am overlooking or oversimplifying?

 

[PCustoms]

2 stage setup is fine, leave it as is. The 1st regulator cuts the tank pressure down but still gets plenty of gas to the gouse. The 2nd regulator cuts it further for safety inside the house.

You don't mention pipe sizes, that is your primary restriction.

 

[bmarshall1]

2 stage setup is fine, leave it as is. The 1st regulator cuts the tank pressure down but still gets plenty of gas to the gouse. The 2nd regulator cuts it further for safety inside the house.

You don't mention pipe sizes, that is your primary restriction.

OK - not to question your knowledge as you seem to know what you are talking about, but then why would the technicians (x2) state the 2 stage was not needed? When he told me I was delivering 1/2 PSI to a 1/2 PSI regulator it sounded* reasonable.

Pipe Size - 3/8 or 1/4 from tank to 1st regulator (2 stage) > then 80 feet of 1/2 flex line from there to house to the iron pipe hooked to green house regulator > then 1/2 flex line into house and 1/2 flex line in attic. Does that sound about right?

 

[Bretny]

The color actually means something for a propane regulator. Look them up.

Usualy they will regulate down to about 10psi (could be wrong on actual pressure) from tank to make a long run to the appliance. Most appliances run at 10wc. Alot lower than 10psi.

Higher pressure can keep the flow up.

 

[bmarshall1]

Next Chapter - I have replaced the 2-Stage Reg. w/ the needed 1-stage, replaced the spark plugs, and filled the tank (it's a 250 gallon), Still not starting. There are 3 lines coming from the regulator to the carb. 2 large (1 inch) and 1 smaller - 3/8. I think* the smaller is a vacuum line that opens the regulator when a manifold vacuum in present. (I also have seen manuals of certain models that states it's a idle circuit feed line).

Anyway... on the Generac forum, the pro's say to adjust the valves, so I grab all 3 of my feeler gauges and promptly lose them...ARGGGGGG! Now off to ge a new set of gauges. One thing I did note. When drawing a vacuum on the smaller of the 3 lines, once I had the engine cranking there was no resistance, like an interior valve opened up. That likely tells me the electric solenoid is opening.

unfortunately the regulator is very inaccessible and all the bolts are rusted anyway. I'll likely have to cut out the side of the genny housing to access it.

 

[Bretny]

Have you ever seen this generator run? Usualy valves wont just go out of adjustment and make the machine not start. Are you 100* sure your getting propane to the mixer on the generator?

 

[bmarshall1]

Have you ever seen this generator run? Usualy valves wont just go out of adjustment and make the machine not start. Are you 100* sure your getting propane to the mixer on the generator?

I have only had it running on Starting Fluid. It would not surprise me if it did not run (there are a lot of things wrong in this house), but I am going under the assumption it will and should run.

I also assume it ran at one point, the house is 20 years old but the battery is from 2014.

I bought a 5/16 wrench to uncap the pressure port/plug but don't have a manometer, but I should be able to tell if gas is coming out of the regulator later today, and will check the pressure at some point. I am getting gas to our stove off of the same "T"

Is the 'mixer' a box of some sort located under the air filter? On another Generator forun they suggested 'chocking' the carb with my hand.

Question. If I take the plug out of the test port, is that before or after the regulator. In other words, if the regulator is plugged/inoperable then I should not get gas from that port, correct?

 

[Bretny]

The mixer is a device that mixes the propane with air to get the right mix ratio. I would not expect these purpose built propane machines to have a carb. Yes the mixer should be on the intake side.

 

[bmarshall1]

So as I understand, a mixer basically acts like a carb, mixing fuel and air, correct?

I may want to revise a previous statement about it running at one time. For LP usage there is a small 'jet' that needs to be added to one of the 3 fuel lines, possible the idle circuit line? This jet was not installed, hmmmmmm.

 

[sberry]

It seems to me you are still confused about regulators. You need 2 stages, 1 from the tank and another at the unit.