Lug nut thread lubrication - what do you use?

[DeeKay]

The correct torque ........It comes down to clamping force.
So the crowd that insists on lube on the lug nuts.

Would that lube theory carry over to head bolts where correct and even clamping force is critical ? Or the main bearing and rod bolts ? Transmission valve body ? Crank pulley bolt ? Flywheel bolts ? Pressure plate bolts ?

I think lubing lug nuts and hub centers is more a serviceability thing, you know your going to have to take them on and off at some point so why make it harder on yourself in the future. I think The only reason they put the stud/lugnut disclaimer on the bottle of anti-seize is for liability; general public and the guy at the parts counter who sold you the stuff doesn't understand that torque values need to be lowered or you risk snapping stuff. Clamping force doesn't change if you adjust your torque values accordingly.
As for your analogy, most of those things are torqued wet soooooo

 

[sberry]

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Materials-and-Grades/Thread-galling.aspx

 

[BlakeTheCarGuy]

Maybe you have an old container, but mine says specifically not to use it on lug nuts or studs.



As for me, I don’t put anything on them and have never had trouble getting the lug nuts off.

Yeah I’ve had mine for a long time. It’s lasted forever so haven’t had to buy more. Now I’m going to have to hunt down some copper anti seize so I can use it on an exhaust I have to redo soon since it has a higher temperature rating.


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[Muncie]

You guys that insist that lubing any fastener, specifically wheel studs in this case will lead them to be over torqued are assuming that everyone is lubing them and then going to dry torque spec.

If you do lube them, then yes the torque has to be reduced, and yes it will involve math to figure out by how much. This is not a hard concept.

As for head bolts and such, have you ever installed anything from ARP?? that comes with its own lube, Or small block chevy head bolts that have to be sealed with dope in the through holes? that dope is a lube.

This is not a hard concept, if you want to lube them do so. Reduce the torque and you will never shear them, you will never exceed the elastic limit of the fastener.

 

[flyt100]

I don't lube my lugs for all the reasons mentioned above (plus, I swap wheels and rotate often enough I done see corrosion, even in the salty winter)

That being said, this might be an interesting read on the subject. In the couple times I convinced myself I needed it on a fastener and was concerned about torque, I reduced it by 25% based on this...

https://www.antiseize.com/Content/Images/uploaded/torque_specifications.pdf

 

[Jeepster04]

I applied anti-seize to my studs in 2004 when my Jeep was new and haven't lubed them again since. They always come off smooth and Ive always torqued them to 100lb/ft. Ive never had a wheel come loose on this vehicle and all 20 studs are original. Plan on keeping this vehicle for many more years so I'll let you know if a stud ever shears off. Going on 16 years....

 

[sberry]

Putting some on when newer lets it all slide smoothly, instead of the burrs sticking and dragging around it lets the nut run over them, round it off. I put some lug nuts on today without any treatment, I had them off a while back and juiced them then and they were super smooth.
I am not a never seize fan either. It has its place but I am 25 years on a couple cans. I use penetrating spray or penetrating oil more for assembly. That other **** is too messy and too slippery and seems in some places simply dries out and doesnt work any better. The spray seals in the threads so to speak, have seen submerged bolts come right loose, all the exposed threads eroded off and threads within the nut look new. We got clamps we got long term in the weather, we can tell if they were sprayed when they were assembled 20 yrs ago.
Stuff on truck frames really shows up.

 

[Ralf11]

There are two components that determine what a torque wrench reads. One is the friction of the threads on the fasteners. If that is not what the engineers spec'ed then you will not get the correct stretch axially along the fastener body. If a torque is spec'd then some variance is assumed (or the engineers would use a more accurate method than a torque wrench - think Raceware rod studs here.)

That Optimolly anti-seize that Porsche says to use on the lug nuts and convex faces doesn't alter the torque. (Or so they all say).

I dunno about any other anti-seize.

I also don't like to get real creative about second guessing engineers who designed stuff (especially German or Japanese engineers). I got my area to do my own work and they have theirs. I also do not second guess cardiologists, scientists, dentists, etc. You get the picture.

 

[sberry]

I am going to agree with the fundamental principle of following the instructions but the dry is a relatively new concept and as you point out torque is a poor measure. We try to make it as consistant as we can. The room for error is a bigger window than we make it out to be especially on not so highly sensitive stuff, even engine bolts often list 10% variance and its a little weasel pee hurts a lug nut we are all in trouble. If it list 75 to 85 and we use the lower figure how much difference it all gonna make and anyone think 90 or 100 is going to damage the stud? We dont want it to stick. This is critical.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I use anti sieze and reduce the torque on them by the K factor that is on the bottle. That's why the manufacturer gives you that information.

That's all fine and dandy except that anti seize manufacturers do not design wheel fasteners. Those that do say NO LUBE. Some pipe thread sealant manufacturers also say it's good on flare fitting threads...

Tommy

 

[Muncie]

That's all fine and dandy except that anti seize manufacturers do not design wheel fasteners. Those that do say NO LUBE. Some pipe thread sealant manufacturers also say it's good on flare fitting threads...

Tommy

So do you think there is something "special" about lug studs that would make them more susceptible to damage from anti seize?

Or do you think the manufactures puts that on there because they don't want to be held liable when someone dosen't take the time to educate themselves on the proper way to lube a fastener and reduce the torque accordingly, or better yet not torque them and fail to get the stud stretched enough to clamp the wheel and it comes off?

Do you know of any type of lube the says it is for wheel studs??? I don't.

Yet any lube you put on that stub, be it spray,stick, spit, butter, what have you lowers the friction and requires less effort (torque) to achieve the right amount of stretch on the fastener.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Do you know of any type of lube the says it is for wheel studs??? I don't.

You just answered your own question. The rest of your post is now irrelevant.


You can't go by the label on a jug of any type of lube saying, "Reduce torque by X%". The manufacturer of the lube has ZERO knowledge of the design spec of any fasteners it may be used on. You have to go by the fanstener manufacturer's specs for reduced torque when a lube is used, and even then, the specs have to be for a particular lube. It's not a universal mathematical application for "lube".

Tommy

 

[InsanePyro]

That's all fine and dandy except that anti seize manufacturers do not design wheel fasteners. Those that do say NO LUBE. Some pipe thread sealant manufacturers also say it's good on flare fitting threads...

Tommy

I bet the OEM would disagree with a lot of mods, such as the car in your profile picture or mine. But yet, here we are

 

[Muncie]

You just answered your own question. The rest of your post is now irrelevant.


You can't go by the label on a jug of any type of lube saying, "Reduce torque by X%". The manufacturer of the lube has ZERO knowledge of the design spec of any fasteners it may be used on. You have to go by the fanstener manufacturer's specs for reduced torque when a lube is used, and even then, the specs have to be for a particular lube. It's not a universal mathematical application for "lube".

Tommy

This right here is a prime example of why I don't post.

The manufacturer of the lube of choice dosen't need to know anything about any fastener it is put on. The simply need to know the coefficient of friction for their product. the math is simple and universal.

Every product that I have used or looked up lists this in the PDS.

My post is not irrelevant simply because you don't understand what I am posting. I deal with fasteners that are torqued to 1,000's of foot pounds on a daily basis and they are all lubed.

Would you install a stainless steel stud and lug with no lube?

 

[Adam R]

Been using anti-sieze on the lugs for 35+ years and a million+ miles without issues. However, do not put anti-sieze on the lug nut mating surfaces. I did some testing a while back and discovered that clamping forces can go up by a factor of 3x which will lead to yielded lugs or broken lugs or I guess broken wheels if you drive a Porsche. The mating or friction surface of the lug nuts should be dry. With anti-sieze on the threads I also back off the torque recommendations about 10%.

I'll never use the "dry" method as that introduces an exceptional amount of variability and I've broken too many tools and lugs trying to get dry/corroded/rusted etc lugs off of vehicles that were poorly maintained.

Lastly, due to concerns about getting anti-sieze where it doesn't belong, manufacturers are going to recommend against it for liability reasons. If you don't trust yourself to use it properly, then I'd recommend you don't use the stuff.

 

[PCustoms]

This right here is a prime example of why I don't post.

The manufacturer of the lube of choice dosen't need to know anything about any fastener it is put on. The simply need to know the coefficient of friction for their product. the math is simple and universal.

Every product that I have used or looked up lists this in the PDS.

My post is not irrelevant simply because you don't understand what I am posting. I deal with fasteners that are torqued to 1,000's of foot pounds on a daily basis and they are all lubed.

Would you install a stainless steel stud and lug with no lube?

This.

 

[king nero]

Lubing the threads only accounts for a small percentage of the friction, the friction between the bolt head (or nut) and the mating surface takes up upto 3/4 of the torque.
Meaning, whether or not you lube the threads will finally make only a small difference in tension.
Excess lube that gets onder the bolt head (or nut) will completely ruin the final value.

 

[Showkey]

The wheels have fallen off and we officially off the tracks.

Number of guys now posting need to go back to school starting with mechanical engineering 101. Especially when it comes to controlling the variables in a process.

 

[CraigStu]

I hate anti seize so I use a light coat of bearing grease. I also use an 80# torque stick. 12 years of 1.2-1.3G cornering in a replica cobra changing wheels 2-4 times per month and I never have had a problem.

 

[GMCGarage]

Paste wax, and a bit of WD-40

 

[firebirdparts]

I'm sure you all know this already, but my Super Duty owner's manual specifies lubricant to be used holding the wheels on; one drop of oil. Not on the threads, though. It's the first vehicle I've had which specifies that. A lot of vehicles with lug bolts (instead of nuts) just have a lot of area to gall/corrode/otherwise lock up. I don't put anything on those, I just worry instead.

 

[firebirdparts]

the math is simple and universal.

You've lost your mind.

 

[king nero]

You've lost your mind.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0824792971/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Simple and universal: this entire book can apparently be replaced/summarised by Torque = F * D * k

 

[jkuro]

Lets see for those that say don't lube, that means you take off your rusted lug nuts (if you can get them off) reuse them and get the proper torque. Or you wire brush them and reuse them with a less rusted finish and get proper torque. I just don't see the logic here! In a rustbelt environment you need some sort of lubricant plain and simple. You will also need to lube the wheel where it contacts the axel flange.

Wait now I see the logic, you just replace the lug nuts and wheel studs every time you take the wheel off.

 

[Muncie]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0824792971/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Simple and universal: this entire book can apparently be replaced/summarised by Torque = F * D * k

Not at all, but what we are dealing with here is in fact a very simple bolted connection. And what I said about the math being simple for knowing how much to back off the torque value for a wheel stud lubed with anti seize is in my opinion very simple.

If that offends you I apologize, I have been posting to get my 10 posts and am now at 11, So I am now done and you guys can go back to being right. Matters not to me.

 

[Ralf11]

The wheels have fallen off and we officially off the tracks.

Number of guys now posting need to go back to school starting with mechanical engineering 101. Especially when it comes to controlling the variables in a process.

maybe it is time to discuss what "dry" means in this context...

 

[zmotorsports]

After following along for the past several days and telling myself I wasn't going to chime in, I thought I may as well throw my two cents in.

I can see the manufacturer following a certain "laboratory" condition when applying wheels and torqueing to specification. However, we don't live in a "laboratory" condition, we live in the real world where we have a multitude of variable to contend with.

As wheel studs age and get used from lug nuts being removed and reapplied, the plating on the studs and nuts wears off, and things start to rust... anti-seize works to combat this. I completely get where the engineers are coming from (WOW, can't believe I just said that but I have to bite my tongue as I paid good money for my son to become one) as anti-seize introduces an unknown that they have not tested nor accounted for... and can very well increase stud strain by an unknown amount. This is a valid concern. The problem herein lies is that age, corrosion, and worn plating introduce just as many uncertain variables into the equation of stud strain... and seized lug nuts are a routine cause of such problems. Seized lug nuts are hands down more problematic than loose lug nuts. Anti-seize eliminates this concern and in my experience, the margin or safety factor for lug nut torque is more than adequate to compensate for any increase in strain due to the anti-seize as long as you're careful to avoid over-torqueing. Wheel lug nut torque spec's usually have a range, example would be on my Jeep it is 85-125 ft/lbs. where I will stay to the lower end of the range due to the use of anti-seize to avoid over torqueing. I torque my Jeep's wheel studs to 95 ft/lbs.

Personally, I've used anti-seize on the lug nuts of every vehicle I've owned for the past 30+ years now. I have never had an issue, never a seized lug nut nor a broken lug stud from over-torqueing. Many other fasteners that I use anti-seize on I will usually reduce the torque spec. by approx. 20%. I have continued doing this after a late night discussion with my long time mentor that I learned from over 30 years ago now and it has proven to work in both in my home shop on my personal vehicles, race cars, customer cars (when I ran my speed shop) and in my full-time job in the industrial maintenance field.

This debate comes up quite often here on garagejournal and is old as the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge debate.

 

[ace10]

I wonder how many people are actually using a decent torque wrench on their lug nuts/bolts.


Or are they just giving it two or three grunts worth of force?

 

[danfromsyr]

guilty as charged.
as when ever I've checked my torque with a 'decent' torque wrench after I've given it my customary grunts.. it's been well around the proper torque for my car & or truck.. different grunts given depending on size of stud/lug size.

I also re-grunt my aluminum and all trailer wheel lug nuts after driving 15-50miles if they've been off..

I have a specific shorter breaker bar for my gruntly tightening of lug nuts.
I don't use the long bar that I use to remove them to reinstall them.

and yes I've had a wheel fall off after a rotation/change.. but the SHMBO came out hollering @me about something while I was working on the tires and I forgot to grunt on one wheel..
Pulled out of the yard to give it a spin.. noticed something amiss within 5-7 houses. and turned around.. slowly limping back to home as the rim was coming loose.. and the tire rolled away on it's own as I pulled into the driveway.. lugnuts in the hubcap.

I wonder how many people are actually using a decent torque wrench on their lug nuts/bolts.


Or are they just giving it two or three grunts worth of force?

 

[zmotorsports]

I wonder how many people are actually using a decent torque wrench on their lug nuts/bolts.


Or are they just giving it two or three grunts worth of force?

What I have witnessed in a lot of tire shops is that they give it the ole 2 ugga duggas with the impact and then grab the torque wrench off of the common work bench (that I'm certain has been dropped multiple times) and hit each bolt with a "click" and calling it good. What they are failing to realize is that by this action alone it is indicating that they have applied more torque to the fastener than the setting on the torque wrench, therefore the fastener is over-torqued to a value that they do not know.

I also get a kick out of many people who do nothing but complain about the idiots in these tire shops as well as dealerships but when this subject arises they quote their local tire shop and/or dealership like they are the end all/be all of knowledge. This confuses me. I think it is information bias in its rarest form, supporting information that supports one's own opinion.

 

[Ralf11]

a set of torque sticks might help the tire shop guys

 

[lis2323]

I also get a kick out of many people who do nothing but complain about the idiots in these tire shops as well as dealerships but when this subject arises they quote their local tire shop and/or dealership like they are the end all/be all of knowledge. This confuses me. I think it is information bias in its rarest form, supporting information that supports one's own opinion.

Lol. We share the same opinion.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[zmotorsports]

While torque sticks save time in a tire shop that may install 50-100 tires a day I find they are not as accurate as I would like. This is another of the reasons I won't have a tire shop remove/install tires on my vehicles. I always bring the tire(s) in off the vehicle for repair and/or replacement as needed.

My DIL needed new tires on her car last weekend and called to ask me what tire shop I recommended or where I got my tire work performed. I told her and my son to bring the car to my shop so we can remove them in our shop and install them in our shop. It may be my OCD but I just feel more comfortable knowing they were properly installed before sending my son or DIL out on the road.

 

[Fish-man]

Clean and dry is the industry standard. Clamping force is the goal........Lube introduces uncontrollable variables.

Lube and torque spec how it effects clamping force:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html

This.

Modern studs and nuts have a factory coating... which is engineered for proper clampload at the given torque spec. Definitely don't want to mess with that. If you have old rusty ****, antiseize is probably a good bet... IF you aren't able to replace with new... but you are totally guessing about clamp load.

 

[Ralf11]

While torque sticks save time in a tire shop that may install 50-100 tires a day I find they are not as accurate as I would like. This is another of the reasons I won't have a tire shop remove/install tires on my vehicles. I always bring the tire(s) in off the vehicle for repair and/or replacement as needed.

My DIL needed new tires on her car last weekend and called to ask me what tire shop I recommended or where I got my tire work performed. I told her and my son to bring the car to my shop so we can remove them in our shop and install them in our shop. It may be my OCD but I just feel more comfortable knowing they were properly installed before sending my son or DIL out on the road.

How accurate are torque sticks? They often claim +- 3 % which would be about like a torque wrench. Claims aren't data tho.

or did you mean some clown not using them correctly?

 

[MikeF2316]

How accurate are torque sticks? They often claim +- 3 % which would be about like a torque wrench. Claims aren't data tho.

or did you mean some clown not using them correctly?

I use a green torque stick and an electric impact on my vehicles. (45 ft-lbs) Then when the job is finished, I use my torque wrench set to the proper value. This causes additional tightening of about one flat on each fastener.

 

[zmotorsports]

How accurate are torque sticks? They often claim +- 3 % which would be about like a torque wrench. Claims aren't data tho.

or did you mean some clown not using them correctly?

I've heard the same claims, however a co-worker bought a set for home use and we were playing with them conducting an impromptu test of our own and we coldn't come anywhere near the claims. It wasn't very scientific, just tightening various fasteners and then creating up with a dial torque wrench to see where the fastener's breakaway torque was and they were very inconsistent.

Not good enough for my liking anyways. I'll save my money and just use the torque wrenches that I already have.

 

[sberry]

I can come closer than those with the impact. I checked a set a while back. Out of 20 had 18 within 5% and one 10 low and one 10 hi.
Had 2 wheels come loose in a career, not sure why, could have been interrupted and missed them.

 

[Wrench97]

Probably best called torque limiters, they are not constant but rarely go over the torque rating, so used in combination with a torque wrench should suffice.

 

[Showkey]

One of the best characteristics of torque sticks.........they stop the ham fisted tire tech from tightening the lug nuts to 225 ftlbs. after guns stops rattling with no stick. Then the customer is stuck on the side of the road and is unable to loosen the lugs with the factory wrench.

Auto Manufacturer testing I have seen the torque sticks were not close enough to endorse there use in the repair process. Again the whole goal is control the process.

Similar to torquing oil drain plugs oil filters and wheel lugs all done at the same service.