Lumber treatment numbers

[USAFpj]

Gents, I'll do some more research on the numbers, but I wanted to start a thread on 'Pole Barn pole treatment'.

There is obviously a lot of discussion on pole/stick/red iron construction methods, and a lot of the pole barn discussions come down simply to wood that's in contact with the ground.

With this in mind, I thought I would throw up a tag that was on one of the (19) 6x6 timbers used to build my pole barn. I also show a pic of the soil that it went into. This soil is a mix of clay and sand, and I'm hoping that we'll be fine for a good amount of years, as it appears to drain very well.

This barn company has been around since 1972, and somehow, has a 40 year warranty on their poles. How they are successful in doing this, I have no idea? I would be interested to hear about longevity that you've experienced with soils like this, and your experiences both good and bad.

 

[cowboy73]

http://www.americanpoleandtimber.com/treated-lumber/

Those posts should be fine. The building will likely be standing long after you are gone.

 

[USAFpj]

Yeah, Tom- I was looking at the site and it had a lot of good info. Personally, when comparing structure types- I would expect for at least 40 years; everyone says that if it fails due to rot, it will be someone else's problem. That someone else is my children! So, only time will tell..

$40K is a lot of money for a 'temporary' building...

 

[readhead]

You are right. It is a temporary building. I am not down on pole barns. They are an inexpensive way to get a lot of shelter. Any time you bury wood in the ground, it will rot. Not today, next week or next year, but it will.
Being in the metal building business I love pole barns. When they fall down usually one of three things happen. They don't get replaced, another pole barn goes up or we replace it with a metal building.
I have inspected pole barns that have started sagging in less than ten years and I have replaced pole barns that have been up for eighty years. Soil conditions and site grading are the largest contributers to failure.
Perma columns are a good choice. However, for the price of perma columns, if you are going to place a slab you might as well design the slab and foundation to place the wood posts on the slab. You then have the best of both worlds. Inexpensive shell construction that is above ground.

 

[MagKarl]

It's going to provide a lot more value over time than spending $40K on a vehicle, something many people do all the time with no second thoughts.

When I started my barn project that was one of the arguments I used to rationalize my decision. My posts came with a lifetime warranty. If they rot, my grandkids will get the experience of helping me replace them. I'm actually looking forward to that.

 

[DougWil]

It's going to provide a lot more value over time than spending $40K on a vehicle, something many people do all the time with no second thoughts.

True and they also do the same with clothes, furniture, phones, electronics and everything else. Might as well make it the case for buildings too.

Only you and your heirs never acquire any lasting wealth if everything you buy ends up on a conveyor belt to the landfill.

Treated wood poles in the ground are OK if they are replaceable.
That as a practical matter isn't the case when buried under a slab, insulation, wiring and interior sheeting and finishes.
In effect making the building disposable.

A Warranty means little.
The bean counters have simply determined that the selling pitch of the warranty nets more than the costs to deliver on that warranty.
It doesn't actually mean the posts will last 40 years.

Is the warranty even transferable?
Will the company even be in business in 40 years?

 

[MagKarl]

True and they also do the same with clothes, furniture, phones, electronics and everything else. Might as well make it the case for buildings too.

Only you and your heirs never acquire any lasting wealth if everything you buy ends up on a conveyor belt to the landfill.

Hypothetical $100K Investment -

Man A builds stick frame shop for $100K, confident his heirs will inherit someday.

Man B builds pole barn for $40K, keeps the other $60K invested for his kids education. Confident he'll be able to help them through school.

Everyone gets to make their own choice how to transfer wealth.

 

[readhead]

Man B kids have to sell the property because they can't afford to pay to have the building repaired because there were no jobs available for grads with a romance novel degree.

I guess you can see that this could go any direction in the future.

There are so many better ways to build a building these days that it just doesn't make any sense to bury wood in the ground.

 

[DougWil]

Hypothetical $100K Investment -

Man A builds stick frame shop for $100K, confident his heirs will inherit someday.

Man B builds pole barn for $40K, keeps the other $60K invested for his kids education. Confident he'll be able to help them through school.

Everyone gets to make their own choice how to transfer wealth.

Only the final cost difference between a fully insulated, wired, sheeted, taped, painted and concrete slabbed, wood in the ground pole building is insignificant compared to a fully finished stick building with a proper foundation.

So it is really only say, a $5K difference or less for a building that will have 1/4 to 1/2 the usable lifespan.

And then you have the costs of tear down and hauling it away much sooner.

 

[USAFpj]

I sure and heck didn't see only a $5K difference between my slabbed 30x50x14 and a red iron building of the same size. About another $12K was my experience..

 

[DougWil]

I sure and heck didn't see only a $5K difference between my slabbed 30x50x14 and a red iron building of the same size. About another $12K was my experience..

You have to compare apples to apples.

Some pole building have no exterior sheeting (OSB or plywood), no exterior wrap, large truss spacing and wood in the ground.
Others have sheeting, wrap, 2ft truss spacing and concrete perma-columns

The difference in cost between a bare bones pole barn, wood in the ground shell, no slab and a stick built footing only, no slab shell are significant.
The significance declines the better built the pole building and the more the building becomes finished because of the added labor and material to insulate and frame a pole barn into basically a stick built with poles every 8 ft.

It is all the little things that add up such as pouring of a slab in a pole barn is more difficult, most readymix trucks have a 20ft chute which won't reach back into a deep building, requiring a pumper.
Where as a stick slab is poured before any of the building or framing is in the way.
Far easier to finish a slab too when you have access to all 4 sides.

Plus a conventional below frostline footing protects the slab from frost heaving.
That isn't the case when you don't have a footing.

 

[rburke65]

USAFpj and MagKarl......where are you getting the $40,000 figure? As far as the 40 year warranty goes, you have to read the fine print but I have 4"x6" poles on my pole barn since 1982 and I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to rot off. I cannot comment on the pressure treated lumber tag on your post, but I'm sure Google is your friend.

 

[USAFpj]

rburke- yeah to be fair, the $40K is what it cost in total for my situation:

30x50x14 pole barn- $28K
4in fiber reinforced concrete
Vinyl backed insulation roof and walls
1 steel man door
1 10x12 insulated overhead door
1 10x10 insulated overhead door
3 2x10 clear panels mounted on wall

Grading/Gravel for pad- $6K
Electrical- $5K

And I've killed 2 birds with one stone- when this thing rots and falls down in 40 years, I still have a full length basketball court or skating rink. All you guys will have is an old shop

 

[rburke65]

Got it now. And your right in line with what I spent on my 32x56 but I'll be worm feed by the time it comes down.