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Luxury Tool

Wubicon

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I've seen similar threads about you're most "Must have tool" or "Tool that is definitely worth the money" threads but I was thinking, what's a tool that is absolutely not necessary but is so nice to have, it's a luxury? A lot of tools are pretty job specific. You either can or can't do the job without that tool. But sometimes, there's a tool that just makes it little easier.

I look at my electric ratchet like that. It doesn't have the torque for anything very tight and anything it can do a standard run of the mill box wrench or ratchet will get the job done. But man, the electric ratch just makes those long threaded bolts so much easier to deal with.

I also recent got a set of Quick Jacks. Completely changed the game for me. You can absolutely just get 4 axle stands and use a floor jack. The Quick Jacks are luxury.
 
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Beerhippie

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About $15K in a good Nikon DSLR camera, lenses, tripods, flash units, etc.

I no longer work as a professional photog. I do occasionally get some work for the gear, but in a world where everyone else is happy with a cell phone camera....

Just the feel of a REAL camera in hand makes it worth it to me.

Every time I pull out my cell camera to take a quick shot, I feel like such a peasant.
 
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neophyte

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How about anything from Lie Nielson?
Lie Nielsen planes (and Veritas, and Clifton) are just good planes, that are practically ready to use out of the box, with decently optimal performance.
I would not consider these brands “luxury”, just functional professional tools, since most other planes made nowadays take a bunch of tweaking and sometimes way too much adjusting to use.
Even the Lie Nielsen planes can need a bit of work, but usually nit excessively more than say breaking in a professional pair of pliers that may be a bit stiff.

“Luxury planes” are probably closer to a brand like Holtey, whose planes cost a couple thousand dollars or more each last time I saw the prices.


Garrett Havk, who I believe used to be one of the editors at Fine Woodworking magazine, once commented that Holtey planes cost about what a professional custom woodworker makes in a week, which was similar to what an Infill Norris plane cost comparatively back before WWI.
I suspect he’s severely off on his estimates on what a large percentage of woodworkers/cabinetmakers actually earn.

Lie Nielsen tools are to my mind just closer to the woodworking equivalent of Snap-On or Proto tools, with Proto probably being more accurate.
 

Dave455

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Lie Nielsen planes (and Veritas, and Clifton) are just good planes, that are practically ready to use out of the box, with decently optimal performance.
I would not consider these brands “luxury”, just functional professional tools, since most other planes made nowadays take a bunch of tweaking and sometimes way too much adjusting to use.
Even the Lie Nielsen planes can need a bit of work, but usually nit excessively more than say breaking in a professional pair of pliers that may be a bit stiff.

“Luxury planes” are probably closer to a brand like Holtey, whose planes cost a couple thousand dollars or more each last time I saw the prices.


Garrett Havk, who I believe used to be one of the editors at Fine Woodworking magazine, once commented that Holtey planes cost about what a professional custom woodworker makes in a week, which was similar to what an Infill Norris plane cost comparatively back before WWI.
I was just about to add precisely that!

Good planes have always been expensive. My Grandfather told me how, pre war, he had to save up to buy his planes. They were a serious investment, but even then they were “mass produced”, and were far more affordable than the tools of the previous generation.

What happened of course, was that over the years, planes from manufacturers such as Stanley were made progressively cheaper and cheaper (in real terms) but we never really noticed the savings. Of course, they ended up being cheapened to the point that they were not really useable.

We went through a period when the only way to get a decent plane was to buy used and refurbish, but then new manufacturers responded to the need, and you can now get good quality planes once more, from manufacturers such as Lie Nielsen, Veritas and Clifton.

I very much doubt if the price of these tools, adjusted for inflation, is vastly different from the cost of a comparable Stanley, back in the day!
 

RTM

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There are also a few wooden plane makers who up the ante as well.

Old Street Tools was one

HNT Gordon from Australia (wood and metal)

In the metal family, only 1 still functional, and I reversed the names☹️ too hard to fix w gloves on
Sauer and Steiner

Anderson Planes
Bill Carter
Both seem to have gone quiet.
 
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neophyte

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I was just about to add precisely that!

Good planes have always been expensive. My Grandfather told me how, pre war, he had to save up to buy his planes. They were a serious investment, but even then they were “mass produced”, and were far more affordable than the tools of the previous generation.

What happened of course, was that over the years, planes from manufacturers such as Stanley were made progressively cheaper and cheaper (in real terms) but we never really noticed the savings. Of course, they ended up being cheapened to the point that they were not really useable.

We went through a period when the only way to get a decent plane was to buy used and refurbish, but then new manufacturers responded to the need, and you can now get good quality planes once more, from manufacturers such as Lie Nielsen, Veritas and Clifton.

I very much doubt if the price of these tools, adjusted for inflation, is vastly different from the cost of a comparable Stanley, back in the day!
Technically, the prices of the top of the line Stanley planes were “Cheaper” back before WWII, but that can vary a bit depending on the inflation calculator one uses.
The quality of the Lie-Nielsen tools is probably a bit better than Stanley tools from back in the say as well though.
Current Stanley top of the line tools are usually a decent value comparably to a lot of the other decent, but not better quality tools sold nowadays for woodworking.
The higher quality for a decent price nowadays is probably found in hand held power tools.
 

Dave455

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Technically, the prices of the top of the line Stanley planes were “Cheaper” back before WWII, but that can vary a bit depending on the inflation calculator one uses.
The quality of the Lie-Nielsen tools is probably a bit better than Stanley tools from back in the say as well though.
Current Stanley top of the line tools are usually a decent value comparably to a lot of the other decent, but not better quality tools sold nowadays for woodworking.
The higher quality for a decent price nowadays is probably found in hand held power tools.
I haven’t worked out the exact figures but I’m sure you are right! I’m in the U.K. so U.S. made Stanley’s were probably a little more costly here originally.

I’m glad the new tools are available.

Below is my Grandfathers No. 95 Edge Plane. A tool he used extensively, as did I when I inherited it.

I knocked it off my bench once, and realised how sad I’d have been if I had damaged such an heirloom, so paid up for the Veritas equivalent.

The Veritas is actually a touch bigger, so it’s not a “one to one” copy, but is superb to use.
IMG_2412.jpeg
 

Vinny

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Don't conflate price with luxury, in the case of Lie Nielsen. They're priced the way they are because there's very few woodworker these days looking for new, made in USA/Canada planes. They are priced accordingly so that they can still make a profit on the few users there are. I wouldn't even consider Woodpeckers tools to be luxury, and they're price is WAY up there because they have a smaller market than Lie Nielsen.
I honestly can't think of a tool I'd consider a luxury, unless someone is making gold plated sockets.
 

dscheidt

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Don't conflate price with luxury, in the case of Lie Nielsen. They're priced the way they are because there's very few woodworker these days looking for new, made in USA/Canada planes. They are priced accordingly so that they can still make a profit on the few users there are. I wouldn't even consider Woodpeckers tools to be luxury, and they're price is WAY up there because they have a smaller market than Lie Nielsen.
I honestly can't think of a tool I'd consider a luxury, unless someone is making gold plated sockets.

The existence of small market tools for hobby activities is a luxury in itself. The luxury is being able to buy something like a woodpeckers slab flattening jig instead of having to build one yourself, which gives the hobbyist more time to do the hobby, and less time doing the things they need to do to do the hobby, either building such a jig, or the donkey work of using a plane to flatten a slab.
 

neophyte

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The existence of small market tools for hobby activities is a luxury in itself. The luxury is being able to buy something like a woodpeckers slab flattening jig instead of having to build one yourself, which gives the hobbyist more time to do the hobby, and less time doing the things they need to do to do the hobby, either building such a jig, or the donkey work of using a plane to flatten a slab.
I used to think this, but after seeing a huge number of older tool catalogs, the shear number of specialty devices made to do one task quickly and well was probably just as high as it is today, just in different areas.
Brace “Drills”, were made in all sorts if varieties, for drilling quickly, with multiple gears, to drilling in corners, or at odd angles, or flush against a wall.
The brace drill bits were also made in numerous varieties, for accuracy, or with screws that would pill the bit into the work, or for flus cutting the bottom of a hole, as well as for rounding the top of a hole, or chamfering the hole. There were also multiple types of driver bits for screws, and square headed lag screws, and hex screws, and probably anything else yhat could be thought of.
Stanley and other manufacturers made all sorts of specialty planes for weird tasks, many of which are completely out of production nowadays, even from niche manufacturers.
All sorts of specialty bises were made from the complicated Yost/Emmert/etc. pattern maker vise, to fractal vises, to rotating vises like the Sawyer Nutyp, which originally came in at least four sizes, to a huge variety of quick release vises, and few vises like this are still on the market.
The Holtzapffel family made a huge variety of specialty tools for all sorts of ornamental and specialty turning tasks, and if you wanted tools like this nowadays, you would have to hunt the tools down on the antique market, or hope there is enough detail in the books the family published, to make your own.

 

dscheidt

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I used to think this, but after seeing a huge number of older tool catalogs, the shear number of specialty devices made to do one task quickly and well was probably just as high as it is today, just in different areas.
Brace “Drills”, were made in all sorts if varieties, for drilling quickly, with multiple gears, to drilling in corners, or at odd angles, or flush against a wall.
The brace drill bits were also made in numerous varieties, for accuracy, or with screws that would pill the bit into the work, or for flus cutting the bottom of a hole, as well as for rounding the top of a hole, or chamfering the hole. There were also multiple types of driver bits for screws, and square headed lag screws, and hex screws, and probably anything else yhat could be thought of.
Stanley and other manufacturers made all sorts of specialty planes for weird tasks, many of which are completely out of production nowadays, even from niche manufacturers.
All sorts of specialty bises were made from the complicated Yost/Emmert/etc. pattern maker vise, to fractal vises, to rotating vises like the Sawyer Nutyp, which originally came in at least four sizes, to a huge variety of quick release vises, and few vises like this are still on the market.
The Holtzapffel family made a huge variety of specialty tools for all sorts of ornamental and specialty turning tasks, and if you wanted tools like this nowadays, you would have to hunt the tools down on the antique market, or hope there is enough detail in the books the family published, to make your own.


Besides a small handful of people making ultra-luxury goods or doing historical preservation (which a sort of luxury itself), no one is making a living using tools from LIe-Nielson, Woodpeckers, etc. They're selling them to hobbyists. (Yes, there are professionals who use these tools. But that's because the hobbyests support the existence of the makers. If a trim carpenter couldn't buy a lie nielson router plane, he'd do without, use a vintage one, or use a power tool.) The entire fancy wood working tool market is for three basic things: 0) tools that are fancy because they can be; 1) tools that are supposed to save you time, but don't really 2) things to adapt an existing tool (usually a router or tablesaw) into some other tool. (Many fit into more than one category.) A commercial shop isn't going to use a router sled to flatten a cutting board, they're feeding it through a large sander.

When stanley were making all 4000 different models of plane they seem to have made, they were selling them to working professionals. No one bought a #248 because they were a hobbyist weather stripping installer, they bought it because they were joiner of some sort, and needed to install weatherstripping. Now, they use a router, or it's done in a factory with a CNC mill. The same is true for the rest of the catalog; once machines did the work, the need for hand tools greatly diminished, and for what little did get done by hand, substitutes were acceptable. if you need to install a door's worth of weatherstripping with handtools (for whatever reason), are you going to spend a day's pay on a special tool, or are you going to take a couple extra hours and do it with a handsaw, chisels and sandpaper?

Where tools are used to make money, there are lots of specialized variations. Look at a cutting tool catalog. How many different carbide insert cutters are there? Many of them exist to do one kind of cut on one kind of material, but they sell them because people make those cuts on that material, and the results (cut quality, tool life, speed, etc) are worth it to the people who buy them.
 

RTM

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Don't conflate price with luxury, in the case of Lie Nielsen. They're priced the way they are because there's very few woodworker these days looking for new, made in USA/Canada planes. They are priced accordingly so that they can still make a profit on the few users there are.
I think the concept of "very few" needs to be examined in context.

Relative to Stanley sales from the 40s, yes very few, but compared to Bridge City, probably gigantic numbers (2-3 orders of magnitude), compared to Woodpeckers, again an order of magnitude smaller than BC.

LN was born because the 1980s quality of Stanley was SO Poor, and the industry needed an intervention. Several of the names above jumped in to fill the gap, to bring it back to tolerable. Stanley didn't jump back in til 2018 or so (guess, don't flame me)

I bought a couple of 60s era planes used, never again.
 
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richfinn

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Picoscope (automotive oscilloscope), it was an itch I had to scratch, I persevered for years with cheap secondhand oscilloscopes (and learned a lot).

The real thing though was a revelation and makes taking critical measurements so fast and easy
 

RoninB4

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-Slightly OT excerpt from an article written by Toshio Odate on expensive tools that appeared in issue #29 of Fine Woodworking. I read the original article, still fairly new in the trades, with mixed emotions.

"A tategu-shi apprenticeship lasts five years. Two additional years, the first and last, are done as a service to the master, extending the relationship to seven years. The first year is spent working in the household and studio doing errands and assisting the master’s wife. At this time you are beginning to learn the manners and attitudes of a craftsman through observation. The seventh year is spent working as a craftsman without salary to show appreciation to your master.

An experience in my third year that is still important to me helps to illustrate the relationship a craftsman has with his tools. I had saved a little pocket money given to me by my master and other craftsmen for doing errands. But as my daily needs were taken care of by the master, there was little reason to have or spend money. On the first and fifteenth day of the month we would take a half day off, but only after the master’s tools and my tools were taken care of and the shop was cleaned. I was finally free around two o’clock. You can imagine just how precious those hours were to me. One afternoon I took the train to a store that was well known for its fine tools. There I purchased a plane that had been made by a famous blacksmith. At the time I did not know his name or the fine quality of his tools. All I knew was that the plane was expensive. On the train I was so overjoyed I unwrapped the plane and held and looked at it all the way home. I knew I couldn’t show the plane to anyone because people would laugh at me — I was still a novice. I couldn’t even keep it in my toolbox for fear someone would see it. I enjoyed the plane every evening while in my room. After the lights were turned out, I kept the plane by my bedside.

One day it was raining, and everyone was fixing tools. I don’t remember why—it wasn’t a day off—but my plane was now in my toolbox. I was pretending to fix my tools but was really looking at my plane. All of a sudden my master was standing behind me. It was too late. He asked, and I had to tell him I had bought it. He took the plane and showed it to the other craftsmen. They, too, thought it was a wonderful tool but teased me because I still did not know how to appreciate its greatness. They took the blade out of the block and examined it carefully. They talked about it for a long time, then gave it back to my master. My master came to me holding the plane in his hand and told me simply that the plane was too good for me. He took it away, and I never saw it again. I had expected that to happen.

Tools are made to be used, and great tools have to be used by great craftsmen. The plane was not for me and should not have been mine only to keep in a cabinet. I should have had greater respect for the tool and the craftsman who made it. It was a very painful and expensive lesson, but I learned."
 

neophyte

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Besides a small handful of people making ultra-luxury goods or doing historical preservation (which a sort of luxury itself), no one is making a living using tools from LIe-Nielson, Woodpeckers, etc. They're selling them to hobbyists. (Yes, there are professionals who use these tools. But that's because the hobbyests support the existence of the makers. If a trim carpenter couldn't buy a lie nielson router plane, he'd do without, use a vintage one, or use a power tool.) The entire fancy wood working tool market is for three basic things: 0) tools that are fancy because they can be; 1) tools that are supposed to save you time, but don't really 2) things to adapt an existing tool (usually a router or tablesaw) into some other tool. (Many fit into more than one category.) A commercial shop isn't going to use a router sled to flatten a cutting board, they're feeding it through a large sander.

When stanley were making all 4000 different models of plane they seem to have made, they were selling them to working professionals. No one bought a #248 because they were a hobbyist weather stripping installer, they bought it because they were joiner of some sort, and needed to install weatherstripping. Now, they use a router, or it's done in a factory with a CNC mill. The same is true for the rest of the catalog; once machines did the work, the need for hand tools greatly diminished, and for what little did get done by hand, substitutes were acceptable. if you need to install a door's worth of weatherstripping with handtools (for whatever reason), are you going to spend a day's pay on a special tool, or are you going to take a couple extra hours and do it with a handsaw, chisels and sandpaper?

Where tools are used to make money, there are lots of specialized variations. Look at a cutting tool catalog. How many different carbide insert cutters are there? Many of them exist to do one kind of cut on one kind of material, but they sell them because people make those cuts on that material, and the results (cut quality, tool life, speed, etc) are worth it to the people who buy them.
Tom Lie-Nielsen if I’m not mistaken, started out working at Garrett Wade Co in NYC, back when Garrett Wade was one of the catalog companies, (and at the time actual retail stores), still selling high quality or decent quality woodworking tools yo craftsmen who needed quality hand tools.
Lie Nielsen, decided to try to manufacture a reproduction of a Stanley beading tool, because originals had become collectors items, and were hard to come by on the used market, and this was before eBay or Etsy were a thing.
The beading tool must have sold well, because Lie Nielsen has since started manufacturing a huge number of other tool models, most based on historic designs.
The tools are obviously sold to hobbyists, but also to woodworkers doing professional reproduction work, who need quality hand tools that can be made to work well.
Professional woodworkers who do very high end work do exist, and dome earn fairly decent paychecks, but others probably just earn whatever the average somewhat skilled laborer makes.
As for Garrett Wade, they still sell woodworking tools, but have moved significantly over to other high end goods, as other woodworking supply catalogs rook over the market, which includes Lee Valley, who was acquainted enough with Garrett Wade decades ago that the catalog numbering systems share the same system.
Garrett Wade may have seemed like a “Hobbyist” woodworking supply, but I knew professional woodworkers doing high end custom work that bought their tools from Garrett Wade, and Garrett Wade tried to supply the specialty supplies needed by those woodworkers, similar to the way local “Industrial” hardware stores used to.
The Stanley planes Garrett Wade carried two to three decades ago, were the top of the line at the time Stanley planes, and those were also sold thru actual industrial tool stores, which I know, because I used to shop at a local industrial hardware store that had a case of the planes.
Woodcraft seems like a “hobby” woodworking store, and to some people it is.
I have also seen professional woodworkers buying their Festool tools from Woodcraft, and possibly other tooling.
Arguably, Festool, could be considered a “hobbyist” brand, because of who buys the tools.
Festool, especially back when they were called “Festo” definitely was not a “hobbyist” tool brand, or intended to be so. All the weird “nicknacks” that Festool manufactures seem like the kind of things “hobbyist” tool manufacturers might make.
Simply using the above as a criteria would make Snap-On a hobbyist tool manufacturer.
How many actual auto mechanics for instance are purchasing one of the Snap-On master sets?

 

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Wubicon

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Good planes have always been expensive. My Grandfather told me how, pre war, he had to save up to buy his planes.

I very much doubt if the price of these tools, adjusted for inflation, is vastly different from the cost of a comparable Stanley, back in the day!
I recently watched a video where they compared the "older but better" tools vs the modern equivalent and then also reviewed a modern tool of comparable price (adjusted for inflation). Ultimately what they found was, adjusted for inflation new tools are just as good as the good old tools. However, there is a lot more cheap tools on the market.
I'd get a full size vehicle lift, if my ceiling could handle the height.
Same. Quickjacks raise my car something like 24" and that's enough that I can still open the hood without hitting the rafters. 24" doesn't seem like a lot but it's plenty to roll a creeper under.
-Slightly OT excerpt from an article written by Toshio Odate on expensive tools that appeared in issue #29 of Fine Woodworking. I read the original article, still fairly new in the trades, with mixed emotions.
Pretty interesting. Very different perspective. Also have mixed emotions. Sometimes it's a whole lot easier to get better results with a better tool.
 

pancholasvegas

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-Slightly OT excerpt from an article written by Toshio Odate on expensive tools that appeared in issue #29 of Fine Woodworking. I read the original article, still fairly new in the trades, with mixed emotions.

"A tategu-shi apprenticeship lasts five years. Two additional years, the first and last, are done as a service to the master, extending the relationship to seven years. The first year is spent working in the household and studio doing errands and assisting the master’s wife. At this time you are beginning to learn the manners and attitudes of a craftsman through observation. The seventh year is spent working as a craftsman without salary to show appreciation to your master.

An experience in my third year that is still important to me helps to illustrate the relationship a craftsman has with his tools. I had saved a little pocket money given to me by my master and other craftsmen for doing errands. But as my daily needs were taken care of by the master, there was little reason to have or spend money. On the first and fifteenth day of the month we would take a half day off, but only after the master’s tools and my tools were taken care of and the shop was cleaned. I was finally free around two o’clock. You can imagine just how precious those hours were to me. One afternoon I took the train to a store that was well known for its fine tools. There I purchased a plane that had been made by a famous blacksmith. At the time I did not know his name or the fine quality of his tools. All I knew was that the plane was expensive. On the train I was so overjoyed I unwrapped the plane and held and looked at it all the way home. I knew I couldn’t show the plane to anyone because people would laugh at me — I was still a novice. I couldn’t even keep it in my toolbox for fear someone would see it. I enjoyed the plane every evening while in my room. After the lights were turned out, I kept the plane by my bedside.

One day it was raining, and everyone was fixing tools. I don’t remember why—it wasn’t a day off—but my plane was now in my toolbox. I was pretending to fix my tools but was really looking at my plane. All of a sudden my master was standing behind me. It was too late. He asked, and I had to tell him I had bought it. He took the plane and showed it to the other craftsmen. They, too, thought it was a wonderful tool but teased me because I still did not know how to appreciate its greatness. They took the blade out of the block and examined it carefully. They talked about it for a long time, then gave it back to my master. My master came to me holding the plane in his hand and told me simply that the plane was too good for me. He took it away, and I never saw it again. I had expected that to happen.

Tools are made to be used, and great tools have to be used by great craftsmen. The plane was not for me and should not have been mine only to keep in a cabinet. I should have had greater respect for the tool and the craftsman who made it. It was a very painful and expensive lesson, but I learned."
There are so many things that I would consider "Wrong," in this article / excerpt that I actually felt bad for the author once I read through it. What a shame.
 

RoninB4

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There are so many things that I would consider "Wrong," in this article / excerpt that I actually felt bad for the author once I read through it. What a shame.
-I felt bad for him too, he obviously still feels it. My limited exposure to traditions and customs in Japan explained why it happened (as the author also expected) but it still didn't seem right. He could have used that plane years later when he was "qualified" to own/use it. I admire a lot of things about the Japanese but this wasn't one of them.
 

neophyte

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There are so many things that I would consider "Wrong," in this article / excerpt that I actually felt bad for the author once I read through it. What a shame.
Toshio Odate went thru a traditional Japanese carpentry apprenticeship under his stepfather, (if I recall correctly, it’s been years since I read his main book), around WWII or slightly thereafter.
His main book, “Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit, and Use”, was published by Taunton, the publisher of Fine Woodworking magazine, and Fine Homebuilding, and a bunch of similar craft magazines like Threads.
For probably decades, the Odate book on Jaoanese Woodworking tools was likely the main accessible book on Japanese Woodworking tools, available in English, and may still be the standard.
The book is also still in print.
Most other books I knew of that were available were on Japanese carpentry, or Japanese furniture, or traditional Japanese wood joints, and would only partially touch on the tools used.
“The Soul of a Tree” by George Nakashima is the other book that sort of touched on traditional tools and techniques, but not really practically, is seems to have been way more common to find at bookstores over the years in my experience.
As far as Japanese apprenticeships go, they probably vary somewhat between crafts and the niches of the particular crafts.
Odate also wrote a book on making Shoji screens.
 

dnschmidt

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All this Japanese Zen stuff is fine but I'll take power tools every time. The way I see it after I cut it down whatever soul the tree had has gone to tree heaven. Yea, it's true, I'm a German *****, but that's just the way I see it. They built handcrafted Zero's we build B-29s on a production line. We all know how that turned out.
 

RoninB4

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All this Japanese Zen stuff is fine but I'll take power tools every time.
-Quite the satori there. It's not the Zen or Japanese "stuff" for some of us. I used power tools on the job every day for decades cutting metal, sometimes I still use them in woodworking but it depends upon the task. Using a sharpened single edge tool or a multi toothed cutter is just a personal choice and has nothing to do with my spiritual enlightenment. Do I need to expand the scope of my horizons?:unsure:
The way I see it after I cut it down whatever soul the tree had has gone to tree heaven.
-An observation decidedly koan worthy :bowdown:
Yea, it's true, I'm a German
-That's ok so was Immanuel Kant, Arthur Schopenhauer, and Friedrich Nietzsche.
-So was Karl Marx and my ex-wife, we don't discriminate here.
but that's just the way I see it.
-Call them as you see them but it's still just your personal choice and that's ok too
They built handcrafted Zero's we build B-29s on a production line. We all know how that turned out.
-Yes and they kicked our arses in automobiles, electronics, machinery, motorcycles, etc. during the 70's and 80's. The logic of your decision is fascinating but flawed as you typed away on your Asian computer keyboard. :beer:

- None of this should be regarded as a personal attack, it was all meant in fun but there's not an appropriate smiley for it.
 

sparky 1971

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Central Iowa
The choice for myself is the M12 bandsaw. I got by several years cutting conduit with a hacksaw and still could, but that bandsaw has become important enough that when my first one quit under warranty, I bought another just because of the two week wait for Milwaukee to repair the first. Now I have two, one for work and the other for the shop.
 

Beerhippie

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Joined
Oct 13, 2023
Messages
9,809
Location
Far NE Oregon
My brother and I bought a JD 110 TLB last year. Ditching, repairing broken water lines (sigh), cleaning up roads, clearing brush, helping neighbors - and mowing. Totally a great purchase.
Many years ago, I worked in landscape construction for a small company in Philomath, OR. Sometimes I was the crew leader, sometimes I was the entire crew. We'd occasionally suggest to the owner that power tools--like backhoes--might be faster. He'd reply "Yeah, but you're cheaper".

Great boss.
 

dscheidt

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Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
2,894
The choice for myself is the M12 bandsaw.

Its definitely a ‘why the hell didn’t buy it earlier?’ tool for me. First time I used it was to fish EMT into a wall from the attic. Some of locations had very little clearance between the floor and roof, and had to be spliced in short lengths. Do you have the deburring attachment?
 

alinc100

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Joined
May 26, 2013
Messages
3,027
Location
Dearborn,MI
-Slightly OT excerpt from an article written by Toshio Odate on expensive tools that appeared in issue #29 of Fine Woodworking. I read the original article, still fairly new in the trades, with mixed emotions.

"A tategu-shi apprenticeship lasts five years. Two additional years, the first and last, are done as a service to the master, extending the relationship to seven years. The first year is spent working in the household and studio doing errands and assisting the master’s wife. At this time you are beginning to learn the manners and attitudes of a craftsman through observation. The seventh year is spent working as a craftsman without salary to show appreciation to your master.

An experience in my third year that is still important to me helps to illustrate the relationship a craftsman has with his tools. I had saved a little pocket money given to me by my master and other craftsmen for doing errands. But as my daily needs were taken care of by the master, there was little reason to have or spend money. On the first and fifteenth day of the month we would take a half day off, but only after the master’s tools and my tools were taken care of and the shop was cleaned. I was finally free around two o’clock. You can imagine just how precious those hours were to me. One afternoon I took the train to a store that was well known for its fine tools. There I purchased a plane that had been made by a famous blacksmith. At the time I did not know his name or the fine quality of his tools. All I knew was that the plane was expensive. On the train I was so overjoyed I unwrapped the plane and held and looked at it all the way home. I knew I couldn’t show the plane to anyone because people would laugh at me — I was still a novice. I couldn’t even keep it in my toolbox for fear someone would see it. I enjoyed the plane every evening while in my room. After the lights were turned out, I kept the plane by my bedside.

One day it was raining, and everyone was fixing tools. I don’t remember why—it wasn’t a day off—but my plane was now in my toolbox. I was pretending to fix my tools but was really looking at my plane. All of a sudden my master was standing behind me. It was too late. He asked, and I had to tell him I had bought it. He took the plane and showed it to the other craftsmen. They, too, thought it was a wonderful tool but teased me because I still did not know how to appreciate its greatness. They took the blade out of the block and examined it carefully. They talked about it for a long time, then gave it back to my master. My master came to me holding the plane in his hand and told me simply that the plane was too good for me. He took it away, and I never saw it again. I had expected that to happen.

Tools are made to be used, and great tools have to be used by great craftsmen. The plane was not for me and should not have been mine only to keep in a cabinet. I should have had greater respect for the tool and the craftsman who made it. It was a very painful and expensive lesson, but I learned."
I was fortunate about 20 years ago to attend a woodworking expo in Indianapolis. A good friend had a booth there and we were able to fab up some display cases to assist. Anyhow my friend ,as a former editor of a woodworking magazine, knew everyone. And I mean everyone. That weekend I spend the show hours and the off hours with Toshio Odate ,Frank Klausz, Andy Rae, and Paul Anthony . Each and everyone a great person to enjoy, listen, talk and ask questions to casually over dinner/drinks, etc. Toshio would make ribbons of shavings ,while building a traditional beam bench ,while my son was just mesmerized by that(at 8 years old) would say " Dad the sawdust on your floor doesn't look like that" My son also got a big chuckle as he thought Toshio was a fun name to say and would shout it excitedly each time we spoke Toshio! Toshio! I will have to dig over the weekend and see if I can find some pictures from that weekend. Sorry for the long winded thread drift. P.S. I love my Veritas and Lie Nielsen tools
 

sparky 1971

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Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
7,973
Location
Central Iowa
Do you have the deburring attachment?
I don't and didn't even know it existed until I saw a post on here (maybe by you?) about it a couple of weeks ago. I'm so used to grabbing my screw driver with the reamer that I might be retired before I got used to the bandsaw reamer.
 

dscheidt

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Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
2,894
I don't and didn't even know it existed until I saw a post on here (maybe by you?) about it a couple of weeks ago. I'm so used to grabbing my screw driver with the reamer that I might be retired before I got used to the bandsaw reamer.
It's like $30, and installs in a second. Try it. You'll like it.
 

dnschmidt

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Joined
Oct 3, 2014
Messages
7,279
Location
Phoenix, AZ
-Quite the satori there. It's not the Zen or Japanese "stuff" for some of us. I used power tools on the job every day for decades cutting metal, sometimes I still use them in woodworking but it depends upon the task. Using a sharpened single edge tool or a multi toothed cutter is just a personal choice and has nothing to do with my spiritual enlightenment. Do I need to expand the scope of my horizons?:unsure:

-An observation decidedly koan worthy :bowdown:

-That's ok so was Immanuel Kant, Arthur Schopenhauer, and Friedrich Nietzsche.

-So was Karl Marx and my ex-wife, we don't discriminate here.

-Call them as you see them but it's still just your personal choice and that's ok too

-Yes and they kicked our arses in automobiles, electronics, machinery, motorcycles, etc. during the 70's and 80's. The logic of your decision is fascinating but flawed as you typed away on your Asian computer keyboard. :beer:

- None of this should be regarded as a personal attack, it was all meant in fun but there's not an appropriate smiley for it.
The only part I'll argue with is the one about their kicking our asses on the machines you mentioned all of which were pioneered by America and through Wall Street greed ceeded to the Japanese and later to the Chinese.
 

RoninB4

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Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
3,562
Location
Under My House
The only part I'll argue with is the one about their kicking our asses on the machines you mentioned all of which were pioneered by America and through Wall Street greed ceeded to the Japanese and later to the Chinese.
-Perhaps many of the machines I'm familiar with (machine shops) were pioneered in America but this country had a decline in building the great machines it used to through the 70's, by the early 80's it was in a downward spiral. I worked for one of the last engine lathe makers (Sheldon Lathe) when it closed the doors in 84 IIRC. I'll agree with Wall St. greed being partly responsible but the refusal to adapt to a changing marketplace, poor design (Sheldon), and lack of investing in innovation also contributed. That left companies like Moore, Hardinge, Bridgeport, and a few others to lead with declining sales the imports chopped away at. We can agree it was largely a self inflicted wound and we killed the golden goose that once had the world by the tail.
 
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