Machine tools

[sberry]

I know we got guys here with complete shops and I aint scared to buy something if I need it, bought some stuff I didn't need early on but those were good lessons.

We had pitiful rural power so that was an issue for tool salvage and I guess I had a couple friends that had machine shops or a few pieces if I really got jammed up but I rarely need to machine anything.

I am a super Mgyver type and while everyone else is figuring out how to clamp it in to a jig I am punching a couple holes with it clamped to the bench using the wrong size pilots. I thought about it once when my master commented after I was trying to out think it and said,,, looks like you are pretty slick as it is. I can come so close guessing for all practical purpose that its not worth figuring out.
My good pal neighbor has a small machine shop, a couple of them, I aint been there for work in a year. Last job I farmed out was a cyl bore, I need a couple small crank grinds but those are beyond the scope of this etc. So a mill or a drill wouldn't have been much use.

I have tuned to so much off the shelf that even though I have a ton of stuff seem to manage without machine tools. Its too tedious anyway and a whole layer of further tooling I just managed to work my way around.
That and a lot of replacement parts became more competitive, we use a lot less home assembled equipment.

 

[brucer]

machine tools make life easier.

 

[rsanter]

Research Burt Monroe
He is the key person in the movie The worlds fastest Indian.
The guy built the worlds fastest Indian motorcycle using no special tools or equipment. Time, patience, a drill, hammer, a file and a few other things...
Yes it can be done
What machine tools do for you is higher precision, easier, safer, and more repeatable for less time invested ( based on the desired precision of course)

Bob

 

[A_Pmech]

Burt did have one machine. It was a Myford ML-7, which he got for free because it was worn out. He certainly did a lot of stuff the hard way though! The first set of cylinder heads made from scratch took about a year and a half. It took him five years to make the aluminum aero body.

Research Burt Monroe
He is the key person in the movie The worlds fastest Indian.
The guy built the worlds fastest Indian motorcycle using no special tools or equipment. Time, patience, a drill, hammer, a file and a few other things...
Yes it can be done
What machine tools do for you is higher precision, easier, safer, and more repeatable for less time invested ( based on the desired precision of course)

Bob

 

[sasquatch12]

Agreed Burt Monroe did have a lathe, neat guy interesting history, a talented thinker.

 

[Richard D]

Research Burt Monroe
He is the key person in the movie The worlds fastest Indian.
The guy built the worlds fastest Indian motorcycle using no special tools or equipment.
Time, patience, a drill, hammer, a file and a few other things...
Yes it can be done
What machine tools do for you is higher precision, easier, safer, and more repeatable for less time invested ( based on the desired precision of course)

Bob

I like my machine tools because I lack those in the red.

 

[sberry]

I am the opposite,,, I have non because I can be done while my bud is still truing the part up. A machinist pal was standing there the other day watching and started in,,, we could make a jig and this or that,,, before he got it out I had rammed a holesaw thru and trimmed with snips,,, then he said,,, or we could do it that way,,, ha

 

[Kevin54]

It all depends on what you are doing and how precise something has to be. If you have a precision part and need some precision work done, you can't halfass it by clamping it to a bench a driving a hole through it with a cold chisel.

 

[dr_clyde]

When I was growing up, if a tractor or something broke in the field, you would do whatever it took to get it fixed to get it to the shop. However, once it was in the shop, the repair would be done properly. In addition to farming, my dad and grandpa were diemakers, and its really hard to get them to think in "tape measure tolerances" sometimes. "Dad, it's just a bracket, we don't need the micrometer on this one" lol

There's a time for hole saws and hand drills, just as there is a time for a punch press and a radial drill. I know some really talented craftsman who have never turned the crank on anything more than a drill press. However, they aren't making money with their skills, so it's OK if it takes longer.

My customers would be pissed if I just banged something together real quick on the floor with a hand drill and a hammer. They come to me because I take the time to machine, weld or form the part properly and nicely. It's all about doing what your customers/job requires.

 

[sberry]

I was wondering what the scenario was, thanks for that. I am sure you will make use of the bench. I just wrote some gibberish in your thread and wanted to elaborate some about the process but figured better do it in my own.

The style is different for sure. The bench is something you have been working on/wanting. I often post here from a plan perspective, if I was a shop foreman and assigned to do this for the owner. I call it a plan view. I would have pulled the plate from the pickup from the steel yard, on to the pallet forks, raised to working height, if I could have shortened it to 8 ft and made 4 legs and 2 long stiffeners from a single piece of tubing and shelf tie steel from a 20 ft of angle. Put 4 feet on it and a couple receiver tubes with 2 welds on I could grind away and flipped it over, bought a mag drill and a bit.

My helper and myself would have finished out the day fiddling a few hangers on it and adding shelf, bolt up a vise. A super nice feature is a good setback for clamping and with thick steel don't need cross steel on the ends but square plate and if its thick a square edge.
I am a general fab type and somewhat fleet oriented and the bench is more than a welding bench it is the bench, I like to sweep dirt off of it.

 

[sberry]

My own are cobble jobs but fall in to the same category as the wood stove. We jammed it together when needed, I spent a day on features we never used,,, but,,, the rest of it worked well enough that there wasn't any gain to upgrades, same for my **** bench, it evolved a little to the point it worked well enough that today it isn't going to make me a nickel to change it and no one notices but me.

A hi use feature we did find useful was a cut grate slag bucket as it didn't spray the floor with **** for a 10 second cut. That was a huge ah ha, the return from cleaning labor was immediate. I am going to make a little deflector to aim some grinding at it yet.

 

[sberry]

However, they aren't making money with their skills, so it's OK if it takes longer.

I have worked to some solutions for takes longer etc. As we see in another thread the quest to drill a 1/2 hole in a plate (could be torch cut) turns in to the ultimate machine etc,,, rent a mag drill. Yes, the actual drill time for this hole would have went up a couple minutes but it would have been done with existing cheap equipment with minimal procurement cost and super fast set up time.

The operator for this oner off hole would just be getting the cords around and deciding on how to do this as I blew the chips off and was looking to see if my coffee cup was still hot.

This is a different scenario than drilling dozens of holes in truck frames weekly.

 

[sberry]

We have actually hit a limit with the profitability of improvements in some of these shop activities considering our duty cycle. I cant buy another welding machine or method to cut and make any more money than keeping a couple chop wheels and sawzall blades I scored on sale on hand. Last big leap I could do was replace drill batteries.

 

[sberry]

There is a huge difference in the kind of "fukk it" that's good enough and being on the right side of adequate for the application. There are certainly some things you cant fix without machine work although I find them further apart, parts chain and access more critical as well as a bit more stock in some cases.

Our care and feeding of vehicle brakes has went up, the need for oil change went down. The need for machined parts went down, when I started had fully intended on accumulation of some of the basics but glad I didn't invest heavily in valve grind head equipment, engine machine work.

I got some but the price was right and I do use it on occasion, would never paid had I had to outfit it at retail cost.

 

[zr1nsx]

Look around you. Everything you use at home at some point had precision machining involved. Every plastic product came from a injection mold that had very precise machined details. Your clothing, etc., etc., etc. Repairing something that's worn out using primitive methods certainly has a place, but our world has had so many large leaps in technology and manufacturing, and fundamentally most of it starts in some machine shop/tool & die shop that has pride in "precision" machined components. I've been a tool maker for 30+ years, and still am amazed at how many consumer products started at the machine shop level.

 

[383 240z]

I got into machine tools because I wasn't broke enough with just mechanics tools. Keith

 

[sberry]

I got into machine tools because I wasn't broke enough with just mechanics tools. Keith

I can relate to that and kind of the point. Now China provides machine shop services so cheap much of it is just not worth the effort. I understand the origins and the specialized need, being in the biz is one thing but I am production minded too. When I was a kid with all American assembled machines often by the designer it was all made like that, today so much cheaper to buy a stock coupling.

Most of my work arounds are way faster for common repairs, I got a hundred pieces of equipment and needed machine work 3 times in 5 years and that was for **** we cobbled together.

 

[3dracer]

I got into machine tools because I wasn't broke enough with just mechanics tools. Keith

That is funny there.

 

[383 240z]

The real reason I got into machine tools was because I had a need for parts that do not exist. I was not willing to pay a prototyping company to make me a one off. I stumbled across a good deal on a nice 13x40 lathe. Few months later I was able to score a 9x42 mill for a few dollars over scrap price. Now if I can draw it, I can pretty much make it. I buy tooling as needed or when I find a great deal on it. Sure I ruin a lot of material, and spend a lot of extra time on something when a "real" machinist can knock it out in a few hours. The way I look at is, some people spend $150 an hour to sit on a shrinks couch and work out their problems, I head out to the shop, and feel great afterwards. And I have a cool new part or tool to play with when I'm done!!! Also now if I need a special bracket or adapter, I don't have to shell out cash. I get to tell everybody that I made it. Just a few months ago I made a clocking ring to mount a D-300 t-case to an AX-15 trans, it flipped the t-case upside down so the out put was on the drivers side so I could still run it in the YJ. That one part retails for more than I paid for my mill. Keith

 

[petawawarace]

SBerry, I'm really not sure what the point of this whole thread is other than to blow your own horn about how good you are at cobbling things together. My bet would be that every one of your tools that you use to hack things together is directly made by a machine tool.

 

[sberry]

Yes, I agree with your approach. Not a thing wrong with that. Where I like to work on forums is to assess the return in some cases such as the guy that just spent 3K on first tools and half of it on torque wrenches. Its not a bad thing to have but 40 at HF would have given the guy some feel and a starting point. If one is in it to do real cost saving service a lot of these items as a hobby are great but not needed to keep their world running and spend a lot of idle time after the fact.

 

[sberry]

SBerry, I'm really not sure what the point of this whole thread is other than to blow your own horn about how good you are at cobbling things together. My bet would be that every one of your tools that you use to hack things together is directly made by a machine tool.

Agreed but it doesn't take that to keep it running. This originated from a call where a bud aint got 50$ and trying to sell one late he doesn't use now for a bigger one so he can turn 2 drums for a car.

Often the best or 2 much while may be a fine idea is a waste of resources newer members come in and ask about. No, you do not need an inch line to connect your 120V comp too just in case you start servicing semi tires in the drive.

As it relates to tools we see these shops disappearing daily, as I said when I started I figured it would be a road I would have to venture down, 35 years later willing to pay a little for the odd job I cant work around,,, just an observation.

 

[e-tek]

SBerry, I'm really not sure what the point of this whole thread is other than to blow your own horn about how good you are at cobbling things together. My bet would be that every one of your tools that you use to hack things together is directly made by a machine tool.

Sberry is our "put it out there and see what sticks" member! I love some of the stuff he comes up with, but then my Dad used to drink too!

 

[ilovevocs]

Sberry, I think it's a matter of perspective. Some do allot more building than repairing. If your building a class 1 race car your doing it the hard way without machine tools or a ton of cash to farm out trivial work. In your case, I can understand and appreciate your perspective. For projects I have completed in the past; a cheap lathe and basic tools go a long way to making life easier.


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[sberry]

I have a hard time figuring out how anyone could make it thru without a torch and a mig welder. The frequency of use can quickly become hi and the salvage potential great that it doesn't take long to earn its keep. Technology has improved and could sell a half a dozen welding machines and still do everything I do. A home ownwer or diy could never save enogh money to pay for a 200 dynasty.

 

[sanddan]

sberry, the king of the "farmer fix".

Not impressed

 

[Kevin54]

Sberry is our "put it out there and see what sticks" member! I love some of the stuff he comes up with, but then my Dad used to drink too!

I was thinking maybe "medical marijuana"

 

[ilovevocs]

I have a hard time figuring out how anyone could make it thru without a torch and a mig welder.

I agree.

On cost, sberry it is very apparent that you are a dollars and cents guy. For some of us you have to understand that this is a hobby. Personally I would love to own a fab shop and build custom what ever, I have the skills, but my **** *** corporate America job pays too well to let it go. So the garage is my passion and remains a hobby, I will likely never see a return on my equipment. I'm ok with that. I enjoy it, and that enjoyment is immeasurable. With out my garage time I couldn't face my career.

Just different perspectives. Not one is right or wrong.



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[trboxman]

I agree.

On cost, sberry it is very apparent that you are a dollars and cents guy. For some of us you have to understand that this is a hobby. Personally I would love to own a fab shop and build custom what ever, I have the skills, but my **** *** corporate America job pays too well to let it go. So the garage is my passion and remains a hobby, I will likely never see a return on my equipment. I'm ok with that. I enjoy it, and that enjoyment is immeasurable. With out my garage time I couldn't face my career.

Just different perspectives. Not one is right or wrong.



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This describes me to a T. But I do have a warm place in my heart for the "just get it done" approach when that's the most efficient and overall effective way to deal with something.

 

[Haveblue]

sberry is a "get it done" kind of guy, he works on a farm, and breakdowns are not an option in that situation. He is not working out of his home garage as a hobby..it is a very different operation.

 

[Richard D]

I can relate to sberry and "get it done". But luckily my shop time is a hobby. Since I got my mill up and running, pretty much every bracket I make gets tossed in the vise and "squared up". I don't grab a mic, but my **** looks WAY better than when I used to only be able to clean up edges with a grinder.

 

[sberry]

Yes, this is a thread to see what sticks, no bigger waste of time than most of them,,, ha. I understand the hobby types. Most are such deal hunters in the process and the savings come from keeping them out of the bar,,, ha

 

[sberry]

A tig welder falls in to this same vacuum. Not including a few exotic car parts I see very little on forums onr in my own shop that has to be tig welded to save the day. Most of the forum stuff is used during the learning curve.
The spool gun has ruined that for me. Its so blazing fast and although the skill level may sometimes be hi the deposit rate makes up for it.
I would never buy a tig and think I was going to save any money with it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it doesn't mean one cant make it but a guy should consider the reality about the cost, in some cases even the bottle and gas aint cheap.

I would probably find a couple jobs for a 5K Dynasty if I had it but that would wear off fast and I would be back to doing what I do, the 300 synch sits as it is. I CAN tig, havnt turned it on in years and use a DC buzzer for sticks.
Same for the 250 mig, at my scale its worth keeping around, Kirk here builds trailers etc, he needs one but if I was a suburb 3 car guy would be well served by a 200 even if a couple tasks took a little longer.
I would just as soon,,, or get more use from cabinet space there. It was a matter of evolution though, used to have the plasma and that Hobart w spoolgun on their own carts. I got 50 ft of plasma and the spooly is 25 and reashes my bench, can pull a golf cart up etc. I don't have to move any of it and the argon has a Y for mig or tig.

We had a local we could hire so reasonable and fast it wasn't till I scored a machine for 200 I got it. I lease a big bottle. I used it and did a couple big projects that were lagging for a couple yrs but once the building stopped and I got the Mig it retired.

 

[sberry]

I don't recall everyones details but did e tek get a new welder? There was a good case for an upgrade. You really get use from it. About like good battery drills and a sawzall.

Can buy a fist full of factory blades at a discount that it has stole most of the field cuts from a torch. Especially once battery became the norm. Pruned a limb from a ladder with it, replaces the generator, the cords the inverter.

Answers really lose perspective fast,,, whats the best torque wrench aint worth answering. I have a family trickster or 2 and need to do a ball joint, it wont take long to cure him of diy if its a 500$ set every time he needs to do a common chore. The answer isn't to rent one in most cases but get an HF one that's going to be working way beyond a couple jobs. Cost 40$. Totally different than a front end service guy in a tire store.

An automotive hoist can have a fast return.
One I use I paid 75 for 20 yrs ago and the main reason it would have been worth investment is its location. If I didn't add a box it would have added to the complexity,,, way more of an issue than the "quality" of the box. The low cost, near free takes all that debate about value right out and allows for return on effort fast.

I mentioned to my Dad a while back,,, its not uncommon to have a 10 K tool box,, he said,,, well its easy to get 10K in to tools,,, I said,, I am not talking tools but that box,,, ha
Any of the advice to buy on truck credit is faulty especially if it comes with some rational about payback. The first thing the guy should learn is to get along to the point someone wants to help them a little and keep 25 in his pocket for a day to skip down to Walmart and get what he needs to co0ntinue earning his paycheck. If he's got nothing and a credit card for about the price of a used set of end wrenches can get Sears 309 and go from there back to HF to get any bits I ran across and didn't have.

 

[brucer]

I'm a toolmaker by trade and over the years I have fixed a lot of farm equipment with a lathe and mill.. either machining pins, bushings, boring holes, welding up shafts and turning them.. all kinds of stuff..

Anyone with a decent shop should have a lathe and a mill.. The time you save with machine tools saves you money, in turn that makes you money..


I can do without a torch, I never really cared for them, I havent needed to use a torch in 20ish years probably.. I prefer a plasma cutter for cutting.

 

[shawnspeed]

I have a pretty well equipped shop, (2 Lathes, BP & 3 welders2mig 1 tig) and I live on the edge of farm country...I have several farmer friends...they keep me busy..more than I would like at times...and like Brucer said, time is money, and sometimes the difference in getting something fixed quick is getting your crop planted/harvested, or the cows milked on time...And sometimes, a farmer fix is perfectly acceptable...sometimes I can make a part from scratch that is no longer available, to put that equipment back in service.That is where machine tools come in...I have made exhaust manifolds for tractor restoration that were not available any more...swather parts that were long out of production , and no longer available, and I have tigged alot of stainless for the dairy farmers...stuff that a MIG would not pass on his milk inspection...so machine tools & Tig welders in my opinion, are an asset ...Mine have paid for themselves numerous times over. Shawn

 

[sberry]

I agree when a guy is hanging out his shingle its a different story. Some operations so sensitive. In my case its easier to keep a spare used pump than have the capacity to repair it all. I have respect for tooling but I am amazed some difference where every general shop had 2 or 3 machine tools, the car or pickup was made with a lot of them but its way down on my "must haves" as part of a service program to keep it running.

A few things it will be way cheaper to replace than repair, get rid of an old "one off" in some cases. I made it thru without a hyd hose machine too, just plain didn't want the whole level of inventory.
Guys with engine machine tools went idle with the advent of fuel injection.
I am not scared to pay a local machine shop to store all that stuff on the chance I needed it and some work is still out of class of a small scheme.
BTW,,, got a stiff mobile home bead I cant get to blow back on, maybe I need to put it on the machine and blast it but cant recall the last time I had a problem.
On my short list if it was priced right is a tire balancer. I was sitting around trying to figure out if buying any tool could save me any money. Seems its more a matter of wants than needs and being able to do more things to me isn't worth the extra effort at the rate I do things as it is.

Another thing on my list of glad I don't own things is a brake lathe. Got 2 in town and looks like both have been junk piled on collectors taking up space for a long time.

 

[sberry]

I been in a few places where they needed tooling badly, 10 half assed maint guys sharing a 3/8 drill motor and an extension cord.

I was in a major plant a while back that had 300 people busy as bee's working about 10% of the time with a staff of about a dozen on maint, I never did figure out who was running it other than so and so will be here . Someone decided how the shifts were covered etc.

Millions of dollars flying by and 50 cents in a room with a dozen small tool boxes, men from every shift working on an oversize bench some piss head dreamed up in a room not big enough to make a good bathroom stall off in the far corner, absolutely pitiful pass the bux excuse for a deal.

The had a welder, a 400A electric motor generator with a box of 3/16 8010 in an out building, got to call a contractor at about 1500 a shot to put a tack on a rod. Tape and wire and clamps from hell cause they cant make or adapt one single part.

I was the welding contractor on plant setup and became the fireman till they got too smart for that. It was an acquisition facility upgrade merger taken on by some financial types dreamed up over cocktails. They got some great salesman, all that was genius but bogged it in production cause they were one level too brite.

They though the senority would follow a flow chart and could run it by numbers and constantly shot themselves, I had my own issues right then and had to leave but if I wasn't on to the next job might have stuck around to unionize it.

They had so many moving parts and a 5 cent plan hatched in an outhouse at the last minute as how to run it all,,, got a grant to hire the ********* unemployable and barmaid crowd that seeded the staff with dipshits right off the bat. All the people I met 1 guy had a remote idea what they was trying to do but it would have been a push to shove deal, easier just to ride it out.

The modern biz degree and lawyers are what shot this country in the azz, now you can buy and run a company and not have 1 fukkin clue what it does.