Machine vise questions

[elmer]

How useful is a machine vise swivel ?
How often do you use your machine vise swivel ?
What sort of operations do you or would you use a machine vise swivel for ?

 

[larry_g]

In having my hands on milling machines on and off for 30 years I have never used the swivel on a milling machine vise. I am not a heavy user but I do own two milling machines.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[whateg01]

Some will point out that you lose rigidity with a swivel base, which is true. Some will also say you can't make parts on a Bridgeport because it's not rigid enough. That said, I've never used a swivel base. Often it's just the fact I can't or don't want to give up the extra could inches of height that the swivel base takes up. It's also a nuisance since I would have to move the vise out of the way and then replace it afterward. I can more easily unbolt the vise, rotate it, and then just clamp it down directly on the table.

 

[BuffettFan]

40 years as a machinist and tool maker.
I never once used a swivel base.
It adds an opportunity for movement while machining and for vibration.
If I needed to set a vise at an angle, I'd do the trig to figure out where the vise needed to be.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

If I want a vise to swivel on my mill I’ll use a rotary table. Fixed vise is the way to go.

 

[elmer]

Ok thanks all for the advice . I guess I can save some money and skip the swivel on my next machine vise.

 

[Mgdoug3]

I have a swivel base on my mill and have never once turned it. I've been thinking about buying a second vise or removing the base. The only reason I haven't removed it yet is that it's trammed in perfectly.

 

[tool_scrounge]

I keep one around for the Kurt D40 swivel base vise just in case. But I use the Non-swivel Kurt 3600V pretty much exclusively.

 

[F-22]

I assume it's useful if you want to set the angle quickly and not very accurately. Not really the general purpose of using a mill. My mill came with one and I never use it, it just takes a bunch of height...

 

[rsanter]

I have used the swivel on a vise a couple times, generally to make a slot or groove at-an angle

The vise is made that you can remove the swivel and set aside and just bolt the vise to the table

 

[RoninB4]

-I've run milling machines since 1978 as part of my daily job duties. I've rotated the vise for angled details but not very often

 

[AEAdam]

Same. Never used it.

And just about every shop ive ever been in has a dusty dirty swivel base leaning up against a wall. It’s like a game of Where’s Waldo.

And a word of caution: I dont think Kurt even offers one. It’s usually the import models that have them. I tram my head into my table. I have owned and used vises whose bases and top surfaces were not parallel. The swivel base could be a source of error. Another reason to instantly remove it.

My current vise is a Kurt PT-600 CNC vise, I bought on ebay from a local seller for $250. You can find decent vises for cheap. When I had my mini mill, I found Hermann Schmidt grind vises cheap. ($150) They uniquely have counterbored holes in their bases that allow you to fastener them directly to tee slots….

 

[AEAdam]

I assume it's useful if you want to set the angle quickly and not very accurately. Not really the general purpose of using a mill. My mill came with one and I never use it, it just takes a bunch of height...

What I have done is used an angle block, held in the vise, then tram in the vise using the angle plate as the reference surface. That way you get the vise at the exact right angle. OR- skip that and just use the angle block as a clamping fixture in an already trimmed vise.

And that's the point. You tram in your vise and really shouldn't be messing with it. I remove mine just for maintenance, to move it around only table, clean under it, or when I think I've been hard on it and it may have shifted. Otherwise, you really set it and forget it. The whole idea of a swivel under this precision block kinda defeats the whole purpose.

I could see have a swivel vise on a drill press or something. On a mill, it really doesn't make sense to me.

 

[slowtwitch73]

My Kurt 5" has one... I like it even though it seldom gets used, but it comes handy a few times a year. Most recently cutting checkering with a slitting saw (head at 45 degrees), vise at 45 one way, then 45 the other, accuracy not important.

I wouldn't go out of my way to get one, but I for sure would not get rid of one. It's a good tool to have around.

Should only take a minute to get a vise dead nuts.... and never assume it stays that way forever.

 

[Sumboodie]

Same. Never used it.

And just about every shop ive ever been in has a dusty dirty swivel base leaning up against a wall. It’s like a game of Where’s Waldo.

And a word of caution: I dont think Kurt even offers one. It’s usually the import models that have them. I tram my head into my table. I have owned and used vises whose bases and top surfaces were not parallel. The swivel base could be a source of error. Another reason to instantly remove it.

My current vise is a Kurt PT-600 CNC vise, I bought on ebay from a local seller for $250. You can find decent vises for cheap. When I had my mini mill, I found Hermann Schmidt grind vises cheap. ($150) They uniquely have counterbored holes in their bases that allow you to fastener them directly to tee slots….

Vise might be cheap but the shipping is the challenge (and cost)

 

[AEAdam]

Vise might be cheap but the shipping is the challenge (and cost)

don't miss the point. Sometimes you can find really great deals on ebay BECAUSE of high shipping. For example, I bought a 12X18 Starrett Crystal Pink surface plate that no one else bid on. It was $10 + $100 shipping. I picked it up and paid $10. Same with the vise.

Sometimes I think its pointless to go to eBay to buy something heavy or unshippable. The opposite can be true.

 

[slowtwitch73]

^^ It's probably not flat anymore.. so the conundrum is, what kind of new certified Asian plate can you get delivered for cheap.

Now if you live somewhere close where it can actually get recerted/flattened, Bob's your uncle.

 

[no704]

Been machining for 25 years. Had a couple of setups where one could have been useful. But there are was around that.
I think I have one now. It would take longer to find it then it would to do something else.

 

[AEAdam]

^^ It's probably not flat anymore.. so the conundrum is, what kind of new certified Asian plate can you get delivered for cheap.

Now if you live somewhere close where it can actually get recerted/flattened, Bob's your uncle.

Crystal pink surface plates wear VERY slowly due to their high quartz content. I think they are the smartest choice for second hand stones, and were it not for their high price, would make a lot of sense for new stones as well.

There is literally no such thing as a certified Chinese or Taiwan surface plate. Their inspection records are fraudulent. Many or most are just photocopies, added with the packaging, not to be taken seriously. The lack of inspection/calibration has no bearing on their flatness, however. The smaller plates that can be shipped affordably, are pretty good. I have a 9X12 and it’s been great.

Years and years ago, I bought a Chinese 4” swivel vise. The base of the vise absent the swivel was very rough milled. Didn’t appear to be ground, and wasn’t parallel to the top surface. I sold it, but it probably would have been a good scraping project.

 

[Sumboodie]

don't miss the point. Sometimes you can find really great deals on ebay BECAUSE of high shipping. For example, I bought a 12X18 Starrett Crystal Pink surface plate that no one else bid on. It was $10 + $100 shipping. I picked it up and paid $10. Same with the vise.

Sometimes I think its pointless to go to eBay to buy something heavy or unshippable. The opposite can be true.

Highly unlikely I'd find anything on the eBay that doesn't need shipped.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Crystal pink surface plates wear VERY slowly due to their high quartz content. I think they are the smartest choice for second hand stones, and were it not for their high price, would make a lot of sense for new stones as well.

There is literally no such thing as a certified Chinese or Taiwan surface plate. Their inspection records are fraudulent. Many or most are just photocopies, added with the packaging, not to be taken seriously. The lack of inspection/calibration has no bearing on their flatness, however. The smaller plates that can be shipped affordably, are pretty good. I have a 9X12 and it’s been great.

Years and years ago, I bought a Chinese 4” swivel vise. The base of the vise absent the swivel was very rough milled. Didn’t appear to be ground, and wasn’t parallel to the top surface. I sold it, but it probably would have been a good scraping project.

So what you're saying is you don't know how flat your plate is...

 

[AEAdam]

So what you're saying is you don't know how flat your plate is...

Lol, yes absolutely right!

Point is, when you buy a new surface plate or mill vise or any number of precision items from China, you also don’t know how flat your purchase is. So we are kinda stuck with this Faustian choice of used, once good, or new, possibly good. This is the dilemma of hobby or small time machinists everywhere.

There are things you can do to check a surface plate with tools you have. But without an autocollimator, you won’t know EXACTLY how flat your surface plate is. You CAN detect severe wear with a tenths indicator at the end of a surface gage mast, sweeping in from the corners. Suburban Tool among others has a good video on this. Maybe Robin Renzetti too.

This may help explain why I’m down this rabbit hole: a lot of Chinese precision stuff begins life as a steel casting. Castings move over time. Machining a casting can relieve internal stresses that causes the casting to move. US precision toolmakers had tricks. Some let their castings sit for a year etc etc

The internet is rife with stories of people who bought twisted mill vises, or warped table saws. My mini mill had a bowed column. If you have a surface plate, wherever you got it, you can put a machined flat part on that plate and check for twist and move it around your surface plate, to see if anything changes.

If you buy a vise and it’s not perfect, AND if you can detect that, there are things you can do about it: You can shim it, find a place on your worn mill table that compensates, tram your head into the vise instead of the table etc etc.

If you are buying from a source that doesn’t offer believable certs (anyth8ng whatsoever from China, Eastern Europe, South America, India etc) you don’t really know what you are getting. My advice, is to be skeptical and have a way to inspect. You probably won’t be able to inspect to the level of calibration. I think that’s kinda what @slowtwitch73 was hinting at. But that shouldn’t stop you from trying. Because I can’t measure .00001”, doesn’t mean I shouldn’t measure .0001”.

Hopefully this helps somebody know what to look for and make a decision that is right for their circumstances.