Machines for sheet metal fab

[ckpitt55]

I'm in the process of gearing up for a restoration on my car and could use some sheet metal working tools. I have basic shaping hammers / dollies / stump but am in need of some machines to form patch panels.

I picked up a HF bead roller that I'm in the process of hot rodding, but I'd also like to get the rest of the basics - an english wheel, shrinker/stretcher, and brake.

Can anyone offer any suggestions for machines they've had good luck with? I don't mind spending extra on a decent machine - I don't really care to turn each one into an upgrade project to make it adequate. Didn't really mind doing it on the bead roller but I don't want to create more work for myself unnecessarily on everything else.

I will say that I've searched sites like allmetalshaping / metalsmeet but it seems almost everyone on those sites are building their own machines. I may do so down the road if I find a need but for the interest of time and making progress on the car I'm content to purchase the stuff now.

Any suggestions? Is the stuff from Mittler brothers any good?

Thanks,

 

[HD FLHX]

http://www.woodwardfab.com/

 

[djjsr]

#1 on my list was a Beverly shear (aka throatless shear). Works great and they're not expensive.

 

[Graham08]

You won't go wrong with equipment from Mittler Brothers. What are you looking at?

The stuff I've seen from Woodward Fab reminds me of things you would see at HF.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ckpitt55]

^^ agreed. they just look like the HF stuff with different paint.

I was considering getting the shrinker / stretcher and english wheel from mittler

Shrinker / stretcher supposed to be capable of 16 ga: http://www.mittlerbros.com/mittler-...er-sretcher-kit-with-foot-operated-stand.html

With the english wheel, I don't need a huge machine because the panels I'll be working on will not be that big so was looking at bench top sizes that I could easily build a stand for later if I want or hard mount to the corner of a heavy duty fab table. I was considering their unwelded english wheel kit. Everything is 1/4" plate and I could obviously reinforce it further if I wanted to. http://www.mittlerbros.com/mittler-...d-bench-mount-standard-english-wheel-kit.html

Would look something like this when complete:

I know the bulk of the cost and complexity of the machine is related to the quality of the wheels - material composition, heat / finish treatment, bearing quality, runout. That's the main reason I want to stay away from import machines.

Still open to any other suggestions / advice of course - jury is still out on a brake. I'd like to be able to do up to 2' panels in 16 ga.

 

[rsanter]

Go look around at metalmeet.com. There are some guys there that make top notch equipment as well. Look at the Lazzie stuff, if you have the money it's top notch

Bob

 

[ckpitt55]

Thanks for the tip, I'll check out metalmeet

Lazze's stuff is awesome and I love his videos, it's just really hard to justify the price as a hobbyist when they're not tools I'm making a living off of

 

[K13]

Check out Baileigh Industrial. They are an alliance vendor and Shane is a top notch guy.

http://metal.baileighindustrial.com/

 

[Tucko]

For a hand brake or box and pan brake, I'd suggest anything made by Pexto, Roper Whitney, or Tennsmith.

 

[RivennHewn]

http://www.woodwardfab.com/

I have a few Woodward tools. Typical Chinese stuff.

Nothing great.

 

[Lhorn]

Not to dissuade a man from acquiring more tools, but what kind of car are you going to restore? If it's a common car, there may already be a wealth of already available reproduction sheet metal pieces that will save time and frustration.

 

[HMCFab9]

Baileigh has good stuff. Shane would be the guy to talk to.
JET makes some good stuff. (I've got a 4'brake from there)
The real Beverly shear is real expensive, but they work really nice. The HF copy is junk, the Baileigh copy is ok.
Other choices are Mittler, Tennsmith, etc.
Woodward fab is somewhat similar to H.F.
I've been on metalmeet & allmetalshaping & as you say, many there are building their own machines, but the average guy doing small projects for a hobby doesn't "need" the absolute best of every tool made.

 

[ckpitt55]

Not to dissuade a man from acquiring more tools, but what kind of car are you going to restore? If it's a common car, there may already be a wealth of already available reproduction sheet metal pieces that will save time and frustration.

It's just an ol rusty bmw e36 - not really a car that anyone would consider to be worthy of a resto. I could scrap it and buy a roller for a couple hundred bucks but it has sentimental value and I embrace the challenge / opportunity to pick up some new skills and learn. Not ready to give up on it yet anyway. I have replacement rockers that were cut from another car and I plan to buy the other panels that I can, but it's often cheaper just to make it from scratch if it's not all that complicated of a part.

Here's what it was prior to teardown last fall:

In early spring I stripped it down the to unibody and started working on the drivers floor pan:

Really only just starting to gear up for the body work because I was busy building the motor. It's going to be getting a built ls1 that I assembled myself dropped into it once its done. Should be good for around 500 to the wheels in a sub-3000lb car. Here's where the motor sits now:

Build thread here if anyone's interested: http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/1622786-my-347ci-build.html

 

[astroracer]

Nice project. I like the looks of it in the 1st pic.
For hobby work the Woodward Fab and Harbor Freight tools work just fine. I have Woodward Fabs Shrinker/Stretcher, Plate Shear, Beverly Shear and little 4" brake. I have the Harbor Freight 3 in 1 Shear, Brake & Roller and I also use their bead roller. All of the tools work fine and they won't break the bank to pick them up.
Now, mind you, I am actually USING these tools not just COMPARING them in photos so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I am sure actually using them does not mean as much as someone's "looks like" opinion from a few photographs...
Mark

 

[ilovevocs]

I would scour craigslist and eBay for a used leaf break or box and pan break. Lots of little HVAC shops going out of business these days and their seems to be a surplus of breaks in the used equipment market. At least that is the case in my area. Their fairly inert and even older ones are typically in excellent shape in terms of functionality.

 

[Graham08]

I would scour craigslist and eBay for a used leaf break or box and pan break. Lots of little HVAC shops going out of business these days and their seems to be a surplus of breaks in the used equipment market. At least that is the case in my area. Their fairly inert and even older ones are typically in excellent shape in terms of functionality.

This is what I've done to outfit my shop for the most part. Old Chicago, Niagara, etc. equipment is much better built than a lot of the newer stuff, even from the higher end manufacturers.

 

[ckpitt55]

Harbor freight stuff definitely does have its place Mark, I agree - I've got their engine stand, engine hoist, 20 ton press, and bead roller. The bead roller was worth the price for the dies alone, and with the upgrades I've made it's now a pretty usable machine. No real problems with any of the stuff in terms of functionality, but the fit and finish always seems to be an issue and there seems to be a minimal amount of engineering that goes into them. Just poorly executed all around - gaps/holes don't line up, parts don't fit quite right, weldments aren't exactly aligned true prior to burning in, and you really don't know what they're made out of. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford some better equipment, so I'm willing to save up a little longer and spend the extra for something that I don't find myself needing to upgrade out of the box. I don't need $$$$ machines as a hobbyist but I'd like to do better than HF for this stuff.

Thanks for the craigslist tip fellas - I've been keeping an ear to the ground but the older machines that are still in good shape are few and far between and tend to sell quickly around these parts. Might need to start expanding my search to Ohio lol

 

[Kevin54]

A lot of people have had good luck with HF's English Wheel, but almost everyone that has one has modified it to beef it up. IIRC, one member on here had one that completely cracked at the back weld. So they need some braces welded on so they don't flex. Just like anything today, you are going to get very cheap Chinese ****, or you are going to get upgraded Chinese ****. That is unless you have deep pockets. The farther you reach into your pocket will move you on up to Taiwanese and if your pocket goes down to your kneecap, you can get some American made stuff.

If I were looking for good stuff I would shop around within a so many hundred mile radius and possibly make a road trip to get it. 300-400 miles one way isn't bad, although your *** hurts from sitting so long by the time you get back home.

 

[PCO6]

Nice project. I like the looks of it in the 1st pic.
For hobby work the Woodward Fab and Harbor Freight tools work just fine. I have Woodward Fabs Shrinker/Stretcher, Plate Shear, Beverly Shear and little 4" brake. I have the Harbor Freight 3 in 1 Shear, Brake & Roller and I also use their bead roller. All of the tools work fine and they won't break the bank to pick them up.
Now, mind you, I am actually USING these tools not just COMPARING them in photos so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I am sure actually using them does not mean as much as someone's "looks like" opinion from a few photographs...
Mark

I agree with this. I have most of what you listed and a few other items. Considering that I used to do most of my sheet metal forming by hand having these is a luxury. There is a better version of every tool I have but what I have is certainly good enough for what I do.

 

[Graham08]

A lot of people have had good luck with HF's English Wheel...

I wouldn't recommend the HF wheel due to the geometry of the lower anvils. From the discussions over at Metalmeet, they're full radius wheels which are very difficult to work with. Higher quality stuff has contact flats on the lower anvils that are much easier to use (and learn with).

Fully agree on looking in a 2-300 mile radius for stuff. I have had some awesome road trips with my dad chasing down a piece of used equipment.

 

[Kevin54]

I wouldn't recommend the HF wheel due to the geometry of the lower anvils. From the discussions over at Metalmeet, they're full radius wheels which are very difficult to work with. Higher quality stuff has contact flats on the lower anvils that are much easier to use (and learn with).

Fully agree on looking in a 2-300 mile radius for stuff. I have had some awesome road trips with my dad chasing down a piece of used equipment.

That could very well be true. I'm just going from what I have read about HF, and the fact that most that have them, had to modify them.

To the OP......if you find a sheetmetal brake, or when looking for a sheetmetal brake, try to keep your eyes open for a "box brake". For home use, a box brake is way more versatile IF it has all of the fingers. When all of the fingers are in, you can bend up longer pieces, but if you have small pieces to bend up, you can slide a finger or two out of the way and bend small boxes up on all four sides at 90 degrees, hence the name "box brake". Very handy.

 

[ilovevocs]

If I were going to buy a wheeling machine and not build I would look at these....http://www.wheelingmachines.com/.

 

[astroracer]

To be truthful here you aren't going to need an english wheel to make patch panels for your car. Small pieces can be bent by hand over your leg and most of what you are doing will never be seen anyway. I have been doing panel repair and building off hand stuff for over 30 yrs and have never had the need to get a wheel...
Although I am thinking about it for the upcoming Model A build. I have some panel work to do that WILL require a wheel...
Mark

 

[Jere]

I recommend a smaller cheap used wood lathe, you can make all different kinds of hammer heads/handles and rounded shapes to form off of. A nice wood stump goes a long way and can be picked up for song at tree trimming places. A large pair (10in+) of snips, and a sabre saw and or sawsall with bi metal blades. A vice for holding dollies will help out for fluid reservoirs and small bends. You can also make a ghetto brake with angle iron and some black plumbing pipe if you can weld. A cheap pneumatic planisher will go a long way also

 

[eborcim]

Also look at www.lowbucktools.com.

 

[theknurl]

listen to what astroracer said, skip the English wheel
skip the Beverly shear too, they're running~$600 used for a B-2, it takes at least 2 people to cut a 4'x8' sheet, i use a 16ga Bosch electric shear
get some Duck Bill tin snips they cut right or left, (Blue Bird, Crescent, Diamond any of the old American ones will do)
variable speed saber saw with metal cutting blades, Bosch makes the best blades

brakes;
get a box & pan or "finger" brake they are harder to do big radii on than a leaf brake though (DiAcro, Pexto etc)

you have a bead roller

you'll want a hand shrinker with a set of stretching jaws too

for forming blocks use MDF

make yourself some "T" stakes for bending/forming

like Graham08 said old American stuff is the QUALITY stuff

check machinery auctions
used machinery dealers

 

[Kevin54]

listen to what astroracer said, skip the English wheel
skip the Beverly shear too, they're running~$600 used for a B-2, it takes at least 2 people to cut a 4'x8' sheet, i use a 16ga Bosch electric shear
get some Duck Bill tin snips they cut right or left, (Blue Bird, Crescent, Diamond any of the old American ones will do)
variable speed saber saw with metal cutting blades, Bosch makes the best blades

brakes;
get a box & pan or "finger" brake they are harder to do big radii on than a leaf brake though (DieAcro, Pexto etc)

you have a bead roller

you'll want a hand shrinker with a set of stretching jaws too

for forming blocks use MDF

make yourself some "T" stakes for bending/forming

like Graham08 said old American stuff is the QUALITY stuff

check machinery auctions
used machinery dealers

Also don't overlook getting a hydraulic press. HF has a 20 ton for not very much. If you have a welder and a couple lengths of angle iron, and a few different diameters of rod, you can make punched and dies to form angles with different radii.

 

[justanengineer]

listen to what astroracer said, skip the English wheel
skip the Beverly shear too, they're running~$600 used for a B-2, it takes at least 2 people to cut a 4'x8' sheet, i use a 16ga Bosch electric shear
get some Duck Bill tin snips they cut right or left, (Blue Bird, Crescent, Diamond any of the old American ones will do)
variable speed saber saw with metal cutting blades, Bosch makes the best blades

brakes;
get a box & pan or "finger" brake they are harder to do big radii on than a leaf brake though (DieAcro, Pexto etc)

you have a bead roller

you'll want a hand shrinker with a set of stretching jaws too

for forming blocks use MDF

make yourself some "T" stakes for bending/forming

like Graham08 said old American stuff is the QUALITY stuff

check machinery auctions
used machinery dealers

^^^The voice of reality. English wheels and power hammers should be the last items on your list.

My only additions would be possibly a slip-roll and if you dont have them already, some quality woodworking tools to carve bucks with.

 

[ckpitt55]

Taking all these comments to heart, thanks for the input guys

Taking the english wheel down in priority - primary reason I was considering was for making fender flares that I intend to fit in order to make room for wider rubber on all 4 corners. Also saw how lazze used it to prestretch areas that he later rolled beads into in order to keep the panels flat. More of a nice to have than a need to have I suppose.

I have hand shears / cutoff wheels - I'll make due with those for cutting.

Also have basic hammers / dollies / and a beater stump.

Have the 20T press - a set of dimple dies would probably be useful.

I will have access to a lathe, so I can turn whatever I need there.

So I guess for the short term, I'll be looking to get a shrinker/stretcher and an old box/pan brake if I can find one.

 

[Graham08]

Making the wheel a lower priority is a good idea. I built mine before I got a lot of other tools and it's probably my least used piece of equipment.

I just got a shear this spring. Prior to that I used a set of Milwaukee 18 gauge power shears for everything. Kett and others also make good hand held power shears. They save a bunch of blisters vs. snips when cutting up full sheets.

Something else to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet is a Roper Whitney #5 or ** punch. I use mine almost every time I work with sheet metal.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[yaidunno]

Good call on the #5 Jr punch. Just picked one up myself, an indispensable tool. A good selection of C-clamp vise grips as well as magnets should be considered. Clecos are another handy setup tool to look into. A quality belt sander is a must, and a bead roller will come in handy as well. For hole making, step drills will be your best friend. Dont forget a nice set of files.

 

[PCO6]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but a pneumatic punch / flanger is a useful tool. You'll likely be drilling out some spot welds and the punch especially will come in handy if you are making any rosette welds.

http://www.eastwood.com/pistol-grip...om&utm_medium=Merchant-Centre&SRCCODE=1SE1531

 

[ckpitt55]

I've got a unibit that I've found works extremely well for cutting out spot welds. I've also got a few spot weld cutter bits that work well but are slower going than the unibit. I'll be using spot welds to secure the replacement panels but I intend to seam weld everything to really help strengthen up the chassis. Anyone have any hesitation about doing this? My time and labor are free - I'm really not concerned about how tedious it is. I know it makes future repairs much more difficult - but if I ever need to make more repairs I figure I'll probably be looking at a new chassis at that point.

Also already have a few clamps / magnets but could always use more.

This is a piece I made the other night that will bridge the gap between the front/rear halves of my floor on the driver's side. Flanged on 3 sides for flush fitment of adjacent panels and bent 90 on the last to tie into what will be the inner layer of the rocker panel. Rolled some beads for additional rigidity. Not perfect but it's a start.

 

[ilovevocs]

Good call on the #5 Jr punch. Just picked one up myself, an indispensable tool. A good selection of C-clamp vise grips as well as magnets should be considered. Clecos are another handy setup tool to look into. A quality belt sander is a must, and a bead roller will come in handy as well. For hole making, step drills will be your best friend. Dont forget a nice set of files.

This isn't intended to be derogatory so please don't take it that way. How do you use a belt sander when your body working? I use my dynabrade (the mini belt sander) to debur things from time to time, but beyond that my imagination Is failing me.

 

[WWIIjeep]

This isn't intended to be derogatory so please don't take it that way. How do you use a belt sander when your body working? I use my dynabrade (the mini belt sander) to debur things from time to time, but beyond that my imagination Is failing me.

I'm guessing he means a vertical belt sanding machine or a combination belt/disk sander or belt sander/grinder.

 

[ilovevocs]

I'm guessing he means a vertical belt sanding machine or a combination belt/disk sander or belt sander/grinder.

Right, their you go.... Now it's clicking.

 

[yaidunno]

Yep, as WWIIjeep suggested. Makes easy work of rounding corners and removing sharp edges.

 

[theknurl]

ckpitt55;
sorry I forgot about the Pexto hand punch i have 3 (thanks Graham08)

tin snips;
NOT WISS AIRCRAFT SNIPS.....real tin snips
NOT WISS straight cut ones either, thats for the heating/AC folks

the Tin Man doesn't know about them, doesn't look like Lazzy does either

i have some VERY nice and rare tin snips, some USA made, some French and German, some custom made

i would suggest as before USA made Duck Bills, 12'' they cut right or left....do not buy the stupid curved jaw Pextos they are POS

i have my Father's and my Uncle's tin snips

oldest pair? my Uncle's Lempkes, 1927 Berlin...turn better than Duck Bills never seen another pair, loop handles

here i'll let the cat out of the bag

best pair? my Father's 1928 Thuillier-Lefrants, tool steel blades, cut 1/4"- radius right OR left, loop handles

2nd best, custom made by 'Pete' Peterman~1932, they'll cut a 4'x8' sheet diagonally perfectly or stop in the middle and do a 1/8" radius left turn
my Dad always used them (to me upside down) i'm right handed, you can't see the line turning right ?????

he did the hard parts on the Northrup Alpha hanging in the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum

so i guess he knew something......my Uncle hired Kelly Johnson at Lockheed so he knew something too

Jack Northrup did not allow any "metal finishing" no sanding, filing or grinding

you roll the POS with a polished roller......and they didn't use English wheels either

 

[ckpitt55]

^^ them old fellas sure did know a thing or two about a thing or two, didn't they?

 

[smith541]

That is a great project I must admit!
I have Woodward Fab’s Shrinker/Stretcher, Plate Shear, Beverly Shear, and the little 4" brake.
All of the tools work great, and I didn’t need to spend a fortune on these products. You can pick the WFEW2 English Wheel for your project’s requirements. For me, this product is completely value for money. You can buy all their stuff online from their website, Amazon, Summit Racing, or eBay. They are all over the web.