Machinist Level

[Micscience]

Whats up guys. I had two questions for the community especially for those who have lathes and experience with lathes. I am going to attempt to build the David Gingery lathe. It is the only way I will be able to obtain a lathe for under $200-$300 smackers. I wanted to ask how important would a machinist level be to true the lathes bed and stuff?

My second question is I found a older Stanley machinist level that is 12 inches long for 25$ bucs. When I checked ebay's selection of machinist levels they were $200 plus dollars. So I am thinking I should buy this level since it might be very significant for building the lathe and just because it is really good price. Can some lend there expertise here I know there a Lathe guys here on GF. Thanks fellas.

 

[Stephenw]

Long ago, I built part of the Gingery lathe. You do not need a machinst's level for a lathe like that. I've never seen a Stanley machinist's level. I have a 6" Starrett level.

 

[Micscience]

Thanks for the quick response. I'm wondering why you say that, is it because the Ginjery Lathe has two bed ways or something?

This is the pic of the level for sale:

Made in the US and A!

 

[laser3kw]

"level" as to gravity level /liquid /bubble level is a misnomer to a machines ability to perform. a lathe doesn't need to be level, but it has to tram true to the spindle axis.
Remember, as far as the "level" argument goes, lathes have been used on ships, where they are pitching and rolling, and the lathe is quite often not level by any means.

 

[A_Pmech]

Oh good god! Don't build a Gingery lathe!

If money is the problem, even a job pumping gas to afford a good lathe would have a higher return on investment than building one of those things.

 

[larry_g]

Probably more important than a level would be a straight edge. You need to know when things are straight and parallel and perpendicular. I would suggest that you check out a copy of 'Machine Tool Reconditioning' and learn a bit about what tools and measurements are important to the machine tool. Once you have that knowledge then A-Pmech's comment will make a whole lot of sense.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Micscience]

I am a beginner and I don't know much about being a machinist however I have seen videos of the Gingery lathes at work and it seemed to be decent. Like 0.001 within spec. I'm not sure if that is good or not however I have never been as enthusiastic to build anything as I am with this lathe and it seems to be so much fun. Please don't crash my aspirations, is it really that bad?

Larry g I am going to check some straight edges and research the machine tool reconditioning book and see if I can grab a copy or find an alternative online. I mean if I some how was able to build a Gingery lathe and make it decently straight wouldn't that give me the opportunity to build a better and truer lathe just by having one already built?

PS: it is the journey of building a lathe that I really am looking forward to. I searched craigslist and I found a (Antique Seneca Falls Metal Lathe) but that is a $150 more than I can afford plus I am going to need tooling. I just don't see any other way. I even checked out the multimachine lathes like the concrete one and the other made out of engine blocks.

 

[A_Pmech]

Micscience,

Before we go any further, why don't you tell us a little about yourself, why you want to build this lathe and what you want to do with it?

Maybe then we can get an idea of where you're coming from.

 

[larry_g]

I

Larry g I am going to check some straight edges and research the machine tool reconditioning book and see if I can grab a copy or find an alternative online.

The book I refer to was written in 1955 and as far as I know there is nothing comparable. http://machinetoolpublications.com/index.cfm

lg
no neat sig line

 

[JoeFin]

Guys used to pick up good used 6" atlas lathes at barn/garage sales for $200/300 all the time

My first Chicom 12" was $500

and it spun when I brought it home

 

[justanengineer]

Where are you located? I see a lot of South Bend 9C's selling in the $300-400 range. Depending on what you want to do with it, you can get started and do a lot with a chuck, a center or two, a lantern toolpost, and some HSS bits, then save up for other tooling as necessary.

+1 on saving your effort on the Gingery. If you want to build a crude machine for the sake of building, go for it. If you want something for actual use, get a hobby machine.

 

[RAYJAY]

Where are you located? I see a lot of South Bend 9C's selling in the $300-400 range. Depending on what you want to do with it, you can get started and do a lot with a chuck, a center or two, a lantern toolpost, and some HSS bits, then save up for other tooling as necessary.

+1 on saving your effort on the Gingery. If you want to build a crude machine for the sake of building, go for it. If you want something for actual use, get a hobby machine.

JUST WISH I COULD FIND A OLDER SOUTH BEND FOR THAT PRICE

here is some example of our pricing in our area

http://williamsport.craigslist.org/tls/4237296066.html

http://reading.craigslist.org/tls/4189137581.html

http://reading.craigslist.org/tls/4250246716.html

http://allentown.craigslist.org/tls/4140410592.html

http://reading.craigslist.org/hvo/4212799460.html

 

[brownbagg]

hell, i gladly sell you my atlas for $500

 

[rsanter]

If I were you I would go negotiate on that $1100 south bend
If you can get it under $1000 that would be a good deal

I like the idea of you building one as a learning excersize....however you need to also factor the cost of raw materials, the cost of the bearings and the chuck ( which the sb has 2 of them ) and the tooling to get started

Start putting money in a jar every week till you have the money if you don't have all the money right now

Bob

 

[Boomer343]

I poured four of those lathes for people after a fellow I knew made all the patterns.

Not sure how you are going to do it on the cheap but you better have a huge amount of patience and determination just to get the patterns made and poured. Being new to the game and using green sand I would figure you will pour 8 to 10 of the base before getting a good one.

I'm all for learning and refining skills but this lathe project would be so far down my list of recommended projects that I can't even see it.... and you don't need that level either.

 

[Boomer343]

Buy one of these.....
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=43104&cat=1,330,50260

 

[justanengineer]

JUST WISH I COULD FIND A OLDER SOUTH BEND FOR THAT PRICE

Keep your eyes open and expand your search area a bit. A few hours drive could save you a few hundred $$$ or more, and the 9" SB's will break down to fit in the trunk and backseat of most smallish cars so long as you dont bring home a bench too. Admittedly not the $3-400 sales I see in spring and summer (kinda slow tool pickings lately), but here's a few ok deals if youre seriously looking.

9C for $450
http://columbus.craigslist.org/tls/4250192102.html

An early 9" for $500
http://evansville.craigslist.org/tls/4198279260.html

Another 9" for $500.
http://nmi.craigslist.org/tls/4194948862.html

9C w/an Atlas DP for $700
http://poconos.craigslist.org/tls/4193415413.html

13" SB for $500. Ironically, I ran this exact machine several times ~15 years ago at the BOCES near my hometown during hs!
http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/tls/4203221588.html

9A for $625
http://binghamton.craigslist.org/tls/4198783909.html

Disclaimer: Not associated with any of these sales, just noticed the description of the 13" and grew up in that area. Also not a giant fan of SB, but have bought a few ridiculously cheap and flipped them, and I will likely be sleeping in the Holiday Inn sometime over the upcoming holidays.

 

[airsanford]

The Gingery thing is ****. There is a video of that idiot busting up a real lathe to melt down to make his p.o.s.

Buy a real lathe. You'll be glad you did.

 

[Micscience]

Ok first off thanks for the response. I am a DIYer that tries to do everything. I'm like an all around worker but automotive is probably my best skill set since I studied that field and worked that field the most. I want to build this lathe because I desperately want one. I won in my fantasy football league and am going to score some extra cash. I was able to join the league by fixing the league managers car and in return he paid for me to get in and I had a decent team.


I live in Massachusetts where safety is first and stops signs are every where which makes Massholes the worse drivers in the country. Some of those South Bend lathes are decently priced for their size compared to what I have seen here in MA's craiglist. I decided to look at the New Hamshire section of CL since it is like 1 and half to 2 hours away with no luck.

I always hear people getting tools really cheap at yard sales and it makes me wonder what the secret is.

My theory was to build the Gingery lathe since it would seem to be the cheapest way. I already have some aluminum and steel and I live near a scrap yard right down the street that I go to on a regular basis. I have plenty of wood for molds. The plan was to build the Gingery Lathe and then the milling machine and if the lathe could do it's job some what straight, then I could build a better one since now I have a Lathe or if by then I am better off I would buy one.

I figured everybody would love the Gingery lathe since it was built by an American who made do with what he had and it's a good craftsman story and it's old school. I thought that was the essence of Garage Journal or at least Machinists that are made in America.

One more thing responding to the aluminum cans comment I have a full manual transmission built out of aluminum that should get me half way at least.

 

[zkling]

O come on now A_Pmech, with just a few lbs of aluminum cans, some charcoal and a little sand you can cast your own machine shop. A lathe, mill, shaper and I think even a power hacksaw to round it all out.

In all seriousness, the Gingery projects are really neat, and you will learn a good number of things, but in the end they really produce toys just like most of the older PM magazine tool plans. Even a super old, worn out lathe will get you further making parts than a Gingery aluminum lathe.

Oh good god! Don't build a Gingery lathe!

If money is the problem, even a job pumping gas to afford a good lathe would have a higher return on investment than building one of those things.

you will be further along in the long run. Although I may have gone with bar tending or the like; I didn't know pumping gas was still a job these days.

JUST WISH I COULD FIND A OLDER SOUTH BEND FOR THAT PRICE

here is some example of our pricing in our area

That 10K, really isn't bad if it is in good working condition. Taper attachment and all.

The 13" Justanengineer posted looks like it could be good, again condition dependent.

 

[rlitman]

Oh good god! Don't build a Gingery lathe!

If money is the problem, even a job pumping gas to afford a good lathe would have a higher return on investment than building one of those things.

What he's saying is that your time is worth money.
If instead of taking the time to build a Gingery lathe, you worked a minimum wage job for the same number of hours, you'd easily be able to afford a Clausing lathe to put next to your Hardinge.

I figured everybody would love the Gingery lathe since it was built by an American who made do with what he had and it's a good craftsman story and it's old school. I thought that was the essence of Garage Journal or at least Machinists that are made in America.

I'm not saying it is is horrible. But the best you can get out of a Gingery project is something minimally workable. And you won't even get that without entering the project with serious machining experience.

By all means, read the Gingery books. They are great. But don't go diving off into one of the projects willy nilly.

 

[Falcon67]

I'd be inclined to drive from Texas for that $500 13" lol

 

[kmacht]

I was in the same boat as you were at one time. I seriously considered building a gingery machine shop because I thought it was the least expensive way to get into machining. I even built a foundry and cast a few parts for the lathe. What I found out is that the learning process of building a lathe had a very steep curve. If you have never worked with metal before there are soo many things that are not in the book that you will need to know that it gets very difficult to end up making accurate enough parts to end up with a useable machine at the end. If you want to build the machines in order to learn all about casting then it is a decent project but what you end up with in the end is a machine that isn't very rigid and since it is custom you can't buy any standard tooling for. I suggest going out and buying the little harbor freight mini-lathe instead.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-x-10-inch-precision-mini-lathe-93212.html

The thing goes on sale for $399 every couple of months and if you add on a 20% coupon it is easily within your price range. You aren't going to turn giantic castings with the machine but it will teach you all the basics of using a lathe and you can turn out some pretty cool parts within its limitations. I owned one as my first lathe and turned out a nice looking steam engine from a casting kit that I bought. There are also all sorts of accessories you can buy for it once more money becomes available. Check out littlemachineshop.com. When you outgow that machine then you can step up to something like a 9" southbend. The nice thing is that alot of the tooling you will buy for the HF machine will transfer right to a 9" SB. If you are still set on looking at craigslist I suggest keeping an eye out on the hartford and eastern connecticut listings as well. I see some really good deals come through there every few months.

Keith

 

[Fueler]

Concerning the level for sale. Pass
The seller may have called it a machinist level but that doesn't make it one.
While it's likely good enough for machine leveling so is a good carpenter level. For a machinist level (which means top notch touchy) look for Starrett and yes they cost money but a little shopping can come up with a good deal.

 

[AndyA]

Just setting up the lathe at random will probably produce "good enough" tolerances for your current skill level. Later you can spend time turning test bars and making adjustments to try to make the lathe more accurate (or find out you don't need to bother for the work you want to do)

Forget the level. First instruments you buy should probably be a 0-to-1" and a 1"-to-2" micrometer. 2" should be large enough to cover most of the hobby stuff you'd want to do. 2" or 3" diameter is probably going to be all you can work on a hobby sized lathe anyway.

 

[AndyA]

...For a machinist level (which means top notch touchy) look for Starrett....

A 199 Starrett level can detect when I walk across the floor in my shop. 1" plywood over 6"x2"x11ga steel channel spanning 8 feet with 16" spacing. The bubble moves one or two marks. Yeah, it's sensitive. Starret claims one mark on the bubble equals 0.0005" per foot of tilt.

There's no point in leveling the equipment if you don't have a solid foundation.

 

[rlitman]

A 199 Starrett level can detect when I walk across the floor in my shop. 1" plywood over 6"x2"x11ga steel channel spanning 8 feet with 16" spacing. The bubble moves one or two marks. Yeah, it's sensitive. Starret claims one mark on the bubble equals 0.0005" per foot of tilt.

Ahhh, the master precision level. Yeah, that's too much for most anything.
I have a normal Starret machinsts level. That's 0.005" per foot graduated.
Not quite enough to pick up me walking across my shop, but then again, I'm on a concrete slab.
It was more than good enough to level my pool table. At one point to get the bubble centered, I had to use a piece of paper as a shim, because the playing cards I was using were too thick.

 

[Micscience]

Ok I have read many of the arguments and I am taking them into consideration but every time I read an argument another question pops in my head.

"I'm not saying it is is horrible. But the best you can get out of a Gingery project is something minimally workable." That may be true regarding to me, however I have seen some nice shafts and spindles made on the Gingery Lathe.

kieth, That mini lathe from Harbor Freight was my first choice but then I thought of the tooling and It was a bit out of my price range unless a wait awhile. Some of the Gingery lathe builders refused to get a Chinese lathe. They claim that there Gingery lathe out performs that HF one and are happy with it. The cool thing about the Gingery lathe you can increase the bed way size which will allow you to build longer pieces which the Harbor Freight is only 12 inches long.

What do you guys think about this? http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/tls/4254316684.html

Ok I guess the level is useless and I should grab a 3-6 micrometer and maybe a straight egde. My foundation will be concrete and I was planning on building a work bench just for the lathe as level as it can be.

 

[383 240z]

Nice little machine for $300. Keith

 

[A_Pmech]

Micscience,

I think learning about machining is a great idea. However, I think the way you want to go about it will lead to nothing but grief. From my perspective, as a machinist and shop owner who loves the manufacturing trade, you would be sinking an enormous amount of your time into building a highly sub-standard lathe. The thought of all that work for so little in return makes me ill.

On the most basic level, neglecting the kinematics of the machine (which are horrible), aluminum is the worst possible choice of material for a machine tool next to plastic. It is soft, light, and has a low modulus of elasticity. That is, it is a very flexible metal.

If your goal is to have a usable machine so you can learn about machining and make real, valuable projects, then I suggest you save your money and buy a Clausing 5900 or equivalent. They can be had for $750 to $1,500 in good condition. If you get the urge to go further, buy Connelly's book and overhaul the machine.

When you're done, you'll have less labor into a lathe (including the hours worked to afford the initial purchase) and you'll have a real machine tool, not a toy.

 

[larry_g]

Ok I have read many of the arguments and I am taking them into consideration but every time I read an argument another question pops in my head.

"I'm not saying it is is horrible. But the best you can get out of a Gingery project is something minimally workable." That may be true regarding to me, however I have seen some nice shafts and spindles made on the Gingery Lathe.

kieth, That mini lathe from Harbor Freight was my first choice but then I thought of the tooling and It was a bit out of my price range unless a wait awhile. Some of the Gingery lathe builders refused to get a Chinese lathe. They claim that there Gingery lathe out performs that HF one and are happy with it. The cool thing about the Gingery lathe you can increase the bed way size which will allow you to build longer pieces which the Harbor Freight is only 12 inches long.

What do you guys think about this? http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/tls/4254316684.html

Ok I guess the level is useless and I should grab a 3-6 micrometer and maybe a straight egde. My foundation will be concrete and I was planning on building a work bench just for the lathe as level as it can be.

The one you linked to, That is the lathe I started with. I learned a lot of how a lathe works, what the shortcomings of that lathe were and what I needed to look for in my next lathe. The one thing some people don't consider that the little lathe you linked to will probably sell for what you have in it any time in the future so you get some use, and education, and your money back. Any tooling, measuring tools, and other support items you will keep as they will support most any lathe.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[66BulldogGS]

One important thing to consider like A_Pmech mentioned is the fact that alumnium is soft and plyable. So vibrations and torque of how the lathe goes together, plus what you are machining comes into play. I worked in a couple machine shops through highschool and college and then went to work in an office of a machine shop for another 6 years after and was hands on with manufacturing through the process. I ran a CNC lathe as well as a manual lathe 60 hrs a week for a summer after highschool so I got to learn a few things. At least enough to help me understand what can and can't be easily done. I apploud you for trying to learn the lathe trade. They are very interesting and lots of fun. I really enjoyed my time in the shop and my short term as a machinist. It's very gratifying watching raw material take shape under your tool.

 

[Micscience]

It is starting to look grimm. Believe it or not the notion of building this lathe has had me excited for 3 days now. I really thought about what you said A-Pmech, so I went to look at other reviews about the lathe and it wasn't to convincing. I just hope people understand what I really want it for. I have built a .22 single shot pistol with a file and a dremel tool and spent hours filing and hand drilling some holes, I know what it takes to spend a lot of time building something. I was just hoping the lathe had some value in it's capabilities since that is the most important part. I got more reading to do.

Larry g thanks for sharing. What I need to learn is the size of a lathe perpendicular to its capabilities. That lathe says 3x12 so the bed is as long as the harbor freight one and the diameter is 6 inches right? so for small tubular stuff this lathe has a big capacity at least for me I would say I don't see my self putting any pipe thicker than 3 inches on it.

 

[zkling]

What do you guys think about this? http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/tls/4254316684.html

Ah the craftsman 109, that was my first lathe. Lots was learned on that machine. If it was ~$150 or less, I'd tell you to grab it, but at that price I think you would be better suited looking for something larger. The carriage feed being on the end of the bed instead of the saddle is a real pain. Also it lacks feed dials.

A few quick options I came up with.

http://providence.craigslist.org/tls/4197888823.html

I really hope the owner just doesn't know how to use or read a dial indicator. Because 0.05" or run out on the spindle is horrible. Then they make the comment "very precise"

Old south bend model C for $500

http://worcester.craigslist.org/tls/4190331929.html

The difference between the 109 and the South bend 9 is night and day. I'm speaking from first hand experience on that

 

[Micscience]

Isn't the 109 a lot smaller as well?

I have looked at that Logan Lathe it was the one I had my eye on before I got brain washed.

 

[rodm1]

If you need a good level look into just the vial. Like at
http://www.antiquesurveying.com/precision_ground_glass_spirit_le.htm

 

[dladcock]

Please listen to what the experience is offering here. Sure, read the Gingery projects, it's great information. It's also ancient. Now, I learned a lot from reading how things were done from publications such as this and more from Old School Masters. Knowing how NOT to do something is a better value than how in many instances.

Seasoned Machinists are smart people. If they tell you, you are doing something the hard way, well, take it for what it is.

The whole idea is to be productive. You can learn more, faster with a better machine.

Efficiency is the name of the game.

Good luck on your journey.

dla

 

[Micscience]

dladcock I am taking what they are saying into consideration. However i do not see any other way regardless I still would have to wait to buy a lathe. I have paused for now but I have been reading how many people are satisfied with their Gingery lathe and completed the build within 9 months which isn't to bad.

I sent an email out to the little atlas lathe asking if they can go lower hopefully they bite. Thanks

btw did anyone look at this lathe?
http://worcester.craigslist.org/tls/4216938602.html
it looks to be to big to transfer to my basement.

 

[A_Pmech]

dladcock I am taking what they are saying into consideration. However i do not see any other way regardless I still would have to wait to buy a lathe.

What's wrong with waiting?

Good things come to those who wait.

 

[Micscience]

There is nothing wrong with waiting. That is all I do is wait. Took me over a year to get my drill press and it isn't even that great of a drill press. that is not to say I don't appreciate it. I'm in a situation that saving money is hard. I didn't want to get this personal but food is an issue at times and having money saved for a lathe but no milk in the fridge makes it hard to hold on to that money.

I have a 1989 CBR 600 F1 which I might consider getting rid of to purchase a lathe.