Made in China, some outsourcing study i did

[doctorschmullus]

Outsourcing, we've all heard of it,
I mean everyone knows that most things are made in china and i posted a thread about this recently when another member directed me to alibaba.com
I had a look around and talked to a few people and found this out.

Minimum order is like 500 pieces and you can get your own logo on it and everything etc but for a 72 tooth chromed with plastic handle "high (chinese) quality" it only costs between 2-3 dollars. A 72 tooth ratchet.
Its pretty crazy for a 3/8 to 1 inch and 8-19mm combined st it was 11 dollars for minimum order 100 in some places.

Now for the dodgy part
I had a talk to them, and other than looking at tools I got a custom guitar made for me, it should be shipping sometime next week. I only ordered a 1 pc sample and they put my custom logo on it. However they dont care about logos as i got "loanstar guitars" U.S.A Style guitar engraved in the headstock. U.S.A style
These chinese companies allow you to put made in U.S.A or made in germany on any of there products.

So theres some food for thought

 

[ulev1st]

Wow.........who knew......BUYER BEWARE!!!

 

[doctorschmullus]

yeah thats what i reckon, plus come to think of it we are all getting ripped of by everyone on the food chain, a 2.68 ratchet, for a high quality fine tooth. Thats cheap

 

[mrholeshot]

Now for the dodgy part
I had a talk to them, and other than looking at tools I got a custom guitar made for me, it should be shipping sometime next week. I only ordered a 1 pc sample and they put my custom logo on it. However they dont care about logos as i got "loanstar guitars" U.S.A Style guitar engraved in the headstock. U.S.A style
These chinese companies allow you to put made in U.S.A or made in germany on any of there products.

So theres some food for thought

There are a lot of fake Gibson Les Pauls being sold on ebay. The really sad thing is some of them are better than what come out of the current Gibson Factory.

 

[Stephenw]

yeah thats what i reckon, plus come to think of it we are all getting ripped of by everyone on the food chain, a 2.68 ratchet, for a high quality fine tooth. Thats cheap

Just curious, what was the shipping cost?

 

[doctorschmullus]

i didnt get to that stage as i dont really want to order that many ratchets but i cant imagine it woulld be a huge amount of money to ship

 

[Stuey]

Just becuase it looks the same does not mean it performs the same.

Take a bottle of bottom-shelf vodka and compare it to Grey Goose. Sure, both bottles offer 1 liter of vodka, but their quality is going to be far different.

Yes, of course there is mark-up, but don't for a second think that $2.68 represents the true cost to make any ratchet.

You can buy a $7 steak at Dennys or a $57 steak at a fancy restaurant. Just because they're both steaks doesn't mean the same attention, work, and quality of ingredients went into both dishes.

 

[doctorschmullus]

yeah i know, i am just saying no wonder alot of companies are going offshore if they can get a 2.68 ratchet made for them

 

[Ben Iv]

Thats what makes me mad about sears If im gonna get china quality im gonna pay a chinese price. same reason I quit buying dr martens boots, made in china with an england price

 

[e3pres]

A friend of mine worked for a US-based company that makes truck accessories. According to him, they made a popular aluminum grill for an F150 in the states for $150/ea. and sold them for $250/ea. QC reject rate was in the low single digits. They started producing them in China for $15/ea. QC reject rate increased to ~50%, but they didn't care. They could throw half of them away and still cut their production costs by 80%.

 

[Stuey]

yeah i know, i am just saying no wonder alot of companies are going offshore if they can get a 2.68 ratchet made for them

Yes, but it's going to be a **** ratchet.

Some of these companies that outsource tool production have to switch from supplier to supplier because of garbage quality control. I had issue with a plier form a well known brand that was made in China. I sent it back and someone high up exclaimed that the one I returned was from an old batch and that they had since changed suppliers. The new pair has better jaws, but they're ground haphazardly at like a 40° slant.

Not all Chinese-made tools are dirt cheap or **** quality. For less than $3, you're going to get a ratchet that comes bundled in those $10 all-in-one tool sets.

 

[doctorschmullus]

yeah i know stuey but chinese tool quality is not the aim of this thread. Its just to say that alot of companies are going to china cos its so cheap. Actually I wonder if any snap on guys can tell us the mark up on snap on. Anyway for exampleThe other day i got a set of digital calipers, no name, like hf stuff for 20 bucks, saw the same thing as kincrome for $80. Alot of this cheap stuff is actually of high enough quailty to pass as a mid range brand. I've even seen some tools that look very close to blue-point. It just depends on the factory however as you said.

Look at these

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/226691423/DHZ005_1_2_20PC_Ratchet_Set.html ive seen this set for over 50 bucks on sale as ampro.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/303135569/1_2_Ratchet_Handle_Wrench.html
How much for this ratchet? Well i talked to the sales manager, usd 2.246.



Look at the stuff on this website http://dltctools.en.alibaba.com/ and http://righttools.en.alibaba.com/ also http://amc-tools.en.alibaba.com/ and see if you know any brand name companies selling these products

 

[american lockpicker]

Whats really interesting is you aren't seeing the "China price" which is much lower.

 

[tatra]

it's not about quality or price for the end user, it's about the shareholder getting theirs...........

 

[FoMoCoPower]

This is a sad world we live in.

 

[cnc-me]

it's not about quality or price for the end user, it's about the shareholder getting theirs...........

Exactly

 

[Stuey]

yeah i know stuey but chinese tool quality is not the aim of this thread. Its just to say that alot of companies are going to china cos its so cheap. Actually I wonder if any snap on guys can tell us the mark up on snap on. Anyway for exampleThe other day i got a set of digital calipers, no name, like hf stuff for 20 bucks, saw the same thing as kincrome for $80. Alot of this cheap stuff is actually of high enough quailty to pass as a mid range brand. I've even seen some tools that look very close to blue-point. It just depends on the factory however as you said.

I'll once again point out restaurants. Yes, you could get a double cheeseburger at Burger King for 99 cents, but what does that really mean? Not much. You will still have regular quarter pounders, and there will still be quality burgers offered at fancier restaurants.

Will fancier restaurants switch over to offering BK double cheeseburgers because it's dirty cheap? No. Some fast food restaurants might focus on the cheaper value sandwhiches more, but distinct quality tiers will more or less remain intact.

These ratchets are so cheap because production is half-assed. And as mentioned, even with am extremely high failure rate, they'll still be dirt-cheap. Some companies won't care, but others do.

Companies outsource because it saves them a lot on labor costs, but when they start saving money on materials and processing, product quality will drop.

I have a ratchet that probably came out of one of those $3 per ratchet factories. It's an absolute POS. Feels like it was made out of recycled aluminum.

Many companies that outsource are not public companies, but still outsource to "lower costs to remain competitive".

 

[TK LP]

There are a lot of fake Gibson Les Pauls being sold on ebay. The really sad thing is some of them are better than what come out of the current Gibson Factory.

You've played these guitars?

 

[mrholeshot]

You've played these guitars?

Yes, I've been playing for 45 years. While their are a lot of low quality fakes out there thier are also some really really nice fakes as well. Well built, better electronics better woods. many of these guitars are custom made for big name guitar players. There is a guy in NJ who will build you any style of electric guitar with any headstock design using the best of everything. Not cheap(actually about 3X as much) but still a fake. Even some of the older Japanese fakes can rival Gibsons quality. Some old Ibanez lawsuit era guitars were great and better than some of the new Les Pauls. Gibson even got in on the action by contracting Yamano Gakki to build Japanese Gibson guitars called Orville The "Orville by Gibson" and had all USA Gibson electronics. The "Orville" had Japan built electrionics. Both great.

 

[doctorschmullus]

yeah, but les pauls are les pauls, be a man and get a gretsch

 

[fflintstone]

When dealing with direct importing from the Chinese don’t get fixated on the “unit price” you need to focus on the “landed price” which is what the actual item will cost after shipping, customs (both ends)(lots of bribes on the Chinese end)
If you were ordering 10,000 custom ratchets the price would drop to under a buck apiece.

Don’t expect it anytime soon either. If you ordered your “resident rocker USA” labeled ratchets today in a lot of 500 for say $2.50 each, you might get them in February or March and pay a landed price of $5-$6 bucks each.

They have no copyright laws in china. They will copy and ship ANYTHING. Its up to you to get it out of customs.
As far as quality goes, if you pay for it and spec it right you will get it. They want to do business and will make a better product to do so.

 

[mrholeshot]

yeah, but les pauls are les pauls, be a man and get a gretsch

There are a few Gretch I like the White Falcon.

 

[TK LP]

Yes, I've been playing for 45 years. While their are a lot of low quality fakes out there thier are also some really really nice fakes as well. Well built, better electronics better woods. many of these guitars are custom made for big name guitar players. There is a guy in NJ who will build you any style of electric guitar with any headstock design using the best of everything. Not cheap(actually about 3X as much) but still a fake. Even some of the older Japanese fakes can rival Gibsons quality. Some old Ibanez lawsuit era guitars were great and better than some of the new Les Pauls. Gibson even got in on the action by contracting Yamano Gakki to build Japanese Gibson guitars called Orville The "Orville by Gibson" and had all USA Gibson electronics. The "Orville" had Japan built electrionics. Both great.

I'm not trying to turn this into Harmony Central, but, NJ is a long way from China, and this thread and your first responce was in reference to China production. Sure, there are small luthiers making great copies in small numbers, but they aren't trying to pass them off as Gibsons, and they aren't mass producing. Nobody is trying to pass off a Keebler as a Gibson. Ingredient selection can be a lot more particular. They aren't assembly line guitars, Gibsons LE Pauls' are, and always have been.The Japanese copies that rival Gibson's bear their own brand. High end Tokia Love Rock's are great guitars, but they bear their name, and they cost like an LP. They are copies, not fakes or counterfits. Orvilles are Gibson licensed, same for Epiphone. I had one of the Ibanez lawsuit guitars, I would have gladly traded for a Gibson, not bad, but not great. Theres no free lunch here, cheap Chinese copies don't compare tho the real deal.

 

[mrholeshot]

I'm not trying to turn this into Harmony Central, but, NJ is a long way from China, and this thread and your first responce was in reference to China production. Sure, there are small luthiers making great copies in small numbers, but they aren't trying to pass them off as Gibsons, and they aren't mass producing. Nobody is trying to pass off a Keebler as a Gibson. Ingredient selection can be a lot more particular. They aren't assembly line guitars, Gibsons LE Pauls' are, and always have been.The Japanese copies that rival Gibson's bear their own brand. High end Tokia Love Rock's are great guitars, but they bear their name, and they cost like an LP. They are copies, not fakes or counterfits. Orvilles are Gibson licensed, same for Epiphone. I had one of the Ibanez lawsuit guitars, I would have gladly traded for a Gibson, not bad, but not great. Theres no free lunch here, cheap Chinese copies don't compare tho the real deal.

Last responce to this as it's not tool related "Any guitar that bears the Gibson name and isn't made by Gibson or is a trash guitar or handbuilt one off custom is a fake wheather is comes from China or New Jersey. Slash from Guns&Roses played a Handbuilt Custom made New Jersy based Gibson Les Paul Fake while playing for G&R. He is now a spokesman for Gibson.

 

[TK LP]

Last responce to this as it's not tool related "Any guitar that bears the Gibson name and isn't made by Gibson or is a trash guitar or handbuilt one off custom is a fake wheather is comes from China or New Jersey. Slash from Guns&Roses played a Handbuilt Custom made New Jersy based Gibson Les Paul Fake while playing for G&R. He is now a spokesman for Gibson.

Like I said, NJ is a long way from China, and like I said, this thread is about China production, you went OT with the guitar reference. I agree about the fakes, but I haven't seen anything that holds a candle to a Gibson come out of China.

 

[kythri]

Take a bottle of bottom-shelf vodka and compare it to Grey Goose. Sure, both bottles offer 1 liter of vodka, but their quality is going to be far different.

Off-topic a bit, but:

Funny you mention Vodka. Vodka "quality" is one of the most overrated concepts out there. Tons of blind taste tests have shown that cheap vodkas are often rated higher by connoisseurs than their expensive preferred brand.

When there's no label on the bottle, people aren't able to know which is which.

 

[WHT]

I'll once again point out restaurants. Yes, you could get a double cheeseburger at Burger King for 99 cents, but what does that really mean? Not much. You will still have regular quarter pounders, and there will still be quality burgers offered at fancier restaurants.

Will fancier restaurants switch over to offering BK double cheeseburgers because it's dirty cheap? No. Some fast food restaurants might focus on the cheaper value sandwhiches more, but distinct quality tiers will more or less remain intact.

These ratchets are so cheap because production is half-assed. And as mentioned, even with am extremely high failure rate, they'll still be dirt-cheap. Some companies won't care, but others do.

Companies outsource because it saves them a lot on labor costs, but when they start saving money on materials and processing, product quality will drop.

I have a ratchet that probably came out of one of those $3 per ratchet factories. It's an absolute POS. Feels like it was made out of recycled aluminum.

Many companies that outsource are not public companies, but still outsource to "lower costs to remain competitive".

Companies outsource because people in this country (many on this forum) will still purchase their products. The younger generation especially has bought into the "one world" philosophy. Unfortunately, they haven't figured out yet that the "one world" will be working for third world salaries or find themselves unemployed.

When I graduated from university you could often make more money working in a factory. For example, one friend graduated with a degree in chemistry and went to work as a pipe fitter at Goodyear because it paid more. Most of those jobs don't exist today and the middle class in this country is being lost at a horrendous rate.

So, keep buying the stuff from overseas and don't complain when your future is not what you hoped it would be.

 

[pep]

So, how does a Toptul guitar compare with the other brands?

 

[RLRRLRLL]

Off-topic a bit, but:

Funny you mention Vodka. Vodka "quality" is one of the most overrated concepts out there. Tons of blind taste tests have shown that cheap vodkas are often rated higher by connoisseurs than their expensive preferred brand.

When there's no label on the bottle, people aren't able to know which is which.

I've seen that as well, i see it as a mindset of what your getting. You pay premium, it "taste" premium. You pay cheap, it "taste" cheap. If you go to a 5 star resturant you dont know what your gettin for sure, it could be fast food type stuff, but it "taste" better there,

 

[mrshaun]

when it comes to food dist around here McLane out of temple brings them most of their food. most of it is the same stuff. but depending on how it is prepared makes all the difference.

 

[doctorschmullus]

Off-topic a bit, but:

Funny you mention Vodka. Vodka "quality" is one of the most overrated concepts out there. Tons of blind taste tests have shown that cheap vodkas are often rated higher by connoisseurs than their expensive preferred brand.

When there's no label on the bottle, people aren't able to know which is which.

exactly, In australia they have the cheap home brand stuff. most people cant tell the difference between a home brand 65c lemonade 1.5l bottle and a scweppes brand name one

 

[trackwelder]

Companies outsource because people in this country (many on this forum) will still purchase their products. The younger generation especially has bought into the "one world" philosophy. Unfortunately, they haven't figured out yet that the "one world" will be working for third world salaries or find themselves unemployed.

When I graduated from university you could often make more money working in a factory. For example, one friend graduated with a degree in chemistry and went to work as a pipe fitter at Goodyear because it paid more. Most of those jobs don't exist today and the middle class in this country is being lost at a horrendous rate.

So, keep buying the stuff from overseas and don't complain when your future is not what you hoped it would be.

Exactly......

 

[pipsters]

I am a member of the "younger generation" (well somewhat, I'm 29). I also shop at Harbor Freight and online often, and buy foreign products if the price difference is large. I recently went to sears and now understand what you guys are saying about buying US made though, and for once in a shopping outing I was shopping the US made section exclusively. That being said, Sears Craftsman sets were significantly higher cost than the Evolve made in china stuff. No discernible difference in quality looking at the stuff in the package.

I will say this however: Sears/America in general needs to get it's US made products at least remotely close to the Asian product prices. I can buy a decent quality set of sockets online or even from Sears for $10 and the Sears US made socket set of the same variety is $30-$50. Does it require that much labor to make those products? I would really like to see an investigation over how much more it really costs to make products like sockets and other tools that are made in an automated press system.

The key to bringing down the cost of products is automation, and unfortunately we are shipping a lot of machines overseas to reduce their labor component. It really is sad. America is moving backwards as far as manufacturing goes. Wealth is leaving this country at breakneck speed.

 

[Stuey]

Off-topic a bit, but:

Funny you mention Vodka. Vodka "quality" is one of the most overrated concepts out there. Tons of blind taste tests have shown that cheap vodkas are often rated higher by connoisseurs than their expensive preferred brand.

When there's no label on the bottle, people aren't able to know which is which.

"Cheap" vodka to me is different than "cheap" vodka to a connosseur.

All I know from past experiences is that cheap plastic bottled bottom-shelf vokda tastes harsh, wears off quick, and gives me a nasty headache.

Companies outsource because people in this country (many on this forum) will still purchase their products.

Yep. It's a Walmart economy where companies will cheap out as much as possible because consumers will still flock to their cheap goodes.

On the deals websites, people will post about cheap crappy direct-from-China junk all the time, and people go nuts over it.

 

[HandyManny]

It's always buyer beware, no matter if your dealing with the Chinese, Russians, Germans, our own domestic, or even the Swiss......sometimes I think especially the Swiss....neutral my ***, just self absorbed that's all.

I don't blame the Chinese for bad products, they're every bit as capable of producing good products if a corporation is willing to pay to have a high quality product outsourced. I blame the domestic company who outsources and goes with the lowest end maker in China just so that domestic company can save a buck and keep shareholders happy. Every country is capable of producing high quality and every country is capable of producing junk. I keep coming across plenty of products that have USA stamped on them these days that aren't quite up to where they should be in the quality department. I've owned a few products made in Germany that were not that great to be honest.

I think if most Americans were yellow skinned, you'd likely see more acceptance with Chinese made goods, as it turns out most Americans are of mixed European origin and therefore are more forgiving of European made goods or at least see them in a better light even if quality sometimes slides with European products. Somehow its become erroneously interpreted that only quality products are made in USA, or Germany, or Switzerland, or England, etc. Not the really case.

 

[american lockpicker]

Hmm I've bought a ton of Swiss stuff and its always been top quality. Now Britsh or Irish made goods...

 

[HandyManny]

Well I'd say the vast majority of Swiss made stuff I've owned was good stuff, but not everything. In fact a lot of Swiss products are actually made in Asian countries with Asian made components, just finished or final assemble in Switzerland so they can say Swill Made on them to use as their marketing ploy. Also a lot of Swiss made components are shipped to Asian countries to be assembled and therefore can carry the Swiss Made lable. It's misleading. It really is buyer beware. I'll take a Leatherman multi-tool or Gerber multi-tool with me into the wilderness anyday over a Victorinox or Wenger knife or tool.

 

[american lockpicker]

Well I'd say the vast majority of Swiss made stuff I've owned was good stuff, but not everything. In fact a lot of Swiss products are actually made in Asian countries with Asian made components, just finished or final assemble in Switzerland so they can say Swill Made on them to use as their marketing ploy. Also a lot of Swiss made components are shipped to Asian countries to be assembled and therefore can carry the Swiss Made lable. It's misleading. It really is buyer beware. I'll take a Leatherman multi-tool or Gerber multi-tool with me into the wilderness anyday over a Victorinox or Wenger knife or tool.

I'll need proof also I carry Vics and Wengers and I would take them over any Gerber. Leatherman is debatable as it has more durable tools yet isn't very rust resistant...

 

[HandyManny]

I'll need proof also I carry Vics and Wengers and I would take them over any Gerber. Leatherman is debatable as it has more durable tools yet isn't very rust resistant...

Are you into watches with mechanical or automatic movements? It's well known within the watch making industry that the practice takes place. Just do a quick search on google. Not to say that all Swiss products are that way though. Just saying some are and it's misleading. Just look up online what qualifies a product to say Swiss Made. I think you'll find the requirements are something like 50% either parts origin or parts assembled. It's pretty laxed if I recall. Don't get me wrong, the red Victorinox will always have a special place in my heart. I've just found the quality and usefulness of Leathermans to be better and more suited to me. Rust is of little concern to me anyway.

 

[american lockpicker]

Now I'm worried I got a Swiss made automatic for a low price...