Made in the USA?

[steelespeed]

So, I read a lot of posts on here about USA this and China that, but I have a question that has been bugging me since a post I made about MAC tools. If a "made in USA" tool is actually made with "global" components but basically just finished here in the states, how can it really be made in the USA?

This isn't to start a flame war or anti-anycountry thread (as most of these posts seem to go), but how can you wave a flag for a company when 100% of the guts of the product come from somewhere else?

 

[FNFS2000]

If its really a concern, a lot more people need to vote with their wallets. Most people look for the lowest price, so manufacturers find ways to stay competitive. If there was a trend moving for 100% US components and assembly, manufacturers would gladly supply. Problem is, the government and unions have drove all domestic prices too high for our consumers, who vote for china with their wallets.

Trying not to bash any country, just stating things as clearly as I can...

 

[Joe B.]

The Global Components thing means that they have transferred all of the part production overseas but they still need the US employees to train the folks in China. (The US employees are told they will still have a job.) Once all of the parts are made in China and the local workforce is up to speed, you can move final assembly without much risk.

If you are going to make some of it in China, there is no reason not to make all of it.

 

[Flathead Red]

My thought is that if you go to any Wallyworld in low income neighborhood, anywhere usa, the bottom line is cost. That is why Wallyworld does so well. They cater to the low income families with products made overseas at low prices. That and shady business tactics but that is for another thread. It seems that supporting your country by buying american is not an option but a privelidge. Of couse what does it matter if you don't speak the language anyway. This is starting to get into a rant that will get me booted so off my soapbox.

FHR

 

[Hiball]

If its really a concern, a lot more people need to vote with their wallets. Most people look for the lowest price, so manufacturers find ways to stay competitive. If there was a trend moving for 100% US components and assembly, manufacturers would gladly supply. Problem is, the government and unions have drove all domestic prices too high for our consumers, who vote for china with their wallets.

Trying not to bash any country, just stating things as clearly as I can...

Unions? Yeah last i heard those union tool members were sticking it too the tool companies.

 

[FNFS2000]

Unions? Yeah last i heard those union tool members were sticking it too the tool companies.

It ain't the members, they are just well meaning pawns for the most part.

 

[FNFS2000]

And its a lot bigger than tool manufacturers.

 

[Marlin]

You cannot legally say Made in USA using global components per the FTC guidelines, you must say Assembled in USA. To qualify for Made in USA "all or virtually all" components must be made in the USA. It's unfortunate in a way because a company could make 75% of the parts in a product in the US including the most critical parts and they still cannot label the product "made in the USA". Then poeple jump to the conclusion that they brought all the components in from overseas and just assemble it here.

 

[mrpowderkeg]

This global component thing is kind of a way to skirt the rules. But I ran into an interesting situation. I needed to drill some holes with a hole saw in some steel. I picked up a Milwaukee arbor/starter bit. The package said Assembled in USA using domestic and global components. BUT on the part itself it was stamped Made in USA. The same package labeling was on the hole saws themselves, and nothing stamped on the saws. These were the Milwaukee ICE treated saws, and no matter where they were made (did I say that?!) they did a great job going through 1/8 steel.

 

[Hiball]

It ain't the members, they are just well meaning pawns for the most part.

I guess i dont understand where companies who are making sizeable profits shouldnt pay its workers a decent wage, If it takes a union to force there hand.. so be it. As a fellow union member the company providing me a safe work enviroment outweighs the compensation by leaps and bounds. If railroads weren't governed by FELA and had Workmans comp they treat us like slaves and the railroad industry would be once again one of the most dangerous jobs in america. Ive seen Many unions re-negotiate contracts within the last 4 years to assist there employers during this downturn of business, And this is how it should work between the two parties. Where the problem lies is when greed starts taking effect and these "Once Quality companies" Sk, Mac...etc start using bait and switch methods to maximize profit off there Previous good name either by outsourcing work or paying someone $7 dollars a hour with "ZERO" benefits in hopes that they will produce a similar looking tool. It will be the downfall of Tools that were once made with pride. Do you think someone making $280 dollars a week churning out 500 ratchets a day will care about the quality of there product? Doubtful, And sadly i see Snap on going down the same road, More and More products produced overseas. It seems to be a growing trend in America, Not just the Tool world.

 

[Old Donn]

My thought is that if you go to any Wallyworld in low income neighborhood, anywhere usa, the bottom line is cost. That is why Wallyworld does so well. They cater to the low income families with products made overseas at low prices. That and shady business tactics but that is for another thread. It seems that supporting your country by buying american is not an option but a privelidge. Of couse what does it matter if you don't speak the language anyway. This is starting to get into a rant that will get me booted so off my soapbox.

FHR

Got news for ya, Red. Wallyworld's aren't just in low income neighborhoods. Their customers don't all fit that template either. Whether you like em or not, they're doing something right.

 

[FNFS2000]

Its so very hard to keep this from a political disaster thread... As I already said, its not the members, most union hands are top notch people, the best in thier given field. The leadership though since its inception has been destroying this country. How can a union tell you how to vote? Who on earth would listen and elect a government that is completely disassembling all this country is made of. I could keep going a thousand directions non stop for days on this, but this wasn't supposed to be the topic I just touched a buzz word in my first comment, I call em like I see em...

 

[Hiball]

Got news for ya, Red. Wallyworld's aren't just in low income neighborhoods. Their customers don't all fit that template either. Whether you like em or not, they're doing something right.

I did a google search for Wright tools the other day and was extremely suprised to see they offer there tools. There prices are fairly competitive but seemed extremely odd to me. How many of these Hacksaws can i count you guys in for?http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=13182406

 

[Hiball]

Its so very hard to keep this from a political disaster thread... As I already said, its not the members, most union hands are top notch people, the best in thier given field. The leadership though since its inception has been destroying this country. How can a union tell you how to vote? Who on earth would listen and elect a government that is completely disassembling all this country is made of. I could keep going a thousand directions non stop for days on this, but this wasn't supposed to be the topic I just touched a buzz word in my first comment, I call em like I see em...

I agree there is obvious sitsuations on both sides have abused the system and your definitely entitled to your opinion and your views as am I. And im not arguing i just hate that unions are always blamed for the company outsourcing jobs, Because its far from the truth. The Hoffa days are over where people got there houses burned down, families health threatended etc. Oh and just because a union endorses a candidate doesnt mean that everyone is gonna vote for that person.. Its normally split right down the middle, and votes are made for numerous reasons and not always on the side of Labor friendly Democrats. Its no different than any other lobbyist trying to persuade votes outside of labor.

 

[steelespeed]

i am staying away from the politics/unions side.

i am more interested in why we all drool so uncontrollably when snap-on/matco/mac/proto/whoever rings the bell with their new products only to find they aren't 100% USA. then we defend these companies and their high prices in one thread while complaining about them in another and systematically categorize 99% of the products that are near identical in features as garbage when we find out they are from china/taiwan.

and just so everyone is clear, i am a strong supporter of made in usa products. but, being in the marketing field i can clearly see through the hype.

 

[NAYLOR]

From what I understand, 51% of the value (material, labor) needs to be domestic for "Made in USA" to be added.

 

[Hiball]

i am more interested in why we all drool so uncontrollably when snap-on/matco/mac/proto/whoever rings the bell with their new products only to find they aren't 100% USA. then we defend these companies and their high prices in one thread while complaining about them in another and systematically categorize 99% of the products that are near identical in features as garbage when we find out they are from china/taiwan.

and just so everyone is clear, i am a strong supporter of made in usa products. but, being in the marketing field i can clearly see through the hype.

I wouldnt say theres much drooling over New products when its determined that there not 100% USA. I would say its the exact opposite, The opposition to the major players trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the people who helped them build there company is not smiled upon. Sadly the popularity of these threads is becoming more frequent and with new laws regarding COO its harder for them to mask it. Its one of the things i love about this site, The reviews of current products along with the information that is readily available on buying the same product substantially cheaper that the Truck guys sell for big bucks with there name on it. Secondly i dont trust Snap on's Dual 80 ratchets, I for the life of me cant fathom why they wouldnt put USA on there ratchets, Its on everything else.... Whether they are or aren't it bothers me Personally.

 

[Marlin]

From what I understand, 51% of the value (material, labor) needs to be domestic for "Made in USA" to be added.

Nope it is actually is much higher but the is not an exact percentage.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/12/musa2.shtm

 

[NAYLOR]

Nope it is actually is much higher but the is not an exact percentage.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/12/musa2.shtm

The proposal you are referring to was never actually passed. I'm almost positive it's 51%. I hate to quote Wikipedia but here is an exert. Link.

In 1996 the FTC[1] proposed that the requirement be stated as:

It will not be considered a deceptive practice for a marketer to make an unqualified U.S. origin claim if, at the time it makes the claim, the marketer possesses and relies upon competent and reliable evidence that: (1) U.S. manufacturing costs constitute 75% of the total manufacturing costs for the product; and (2) the product was last substantially transformed in the United States.

However, this was just a proposal and never became part of the final guidelines which were published in the Federal Register[2] in 1997.

 

[Merkava_4]

You cannot legally say Made in USA using global components per the FTC guidelines, you must say Assembled in USA.

That's exactly the way it is with my wormdrive SkilSaw. The saw itself is completely made in the U.S.A., but since the blade is made in China, it says "Assembled In USA" on the box.

 

[7echo]

That's exactly the way it is with my wormdrive SkilSaw. The saw itself is completely made in the U.S.A., but since the blade is made in China, it says "Assembled In USA" on the box.

You would think they would source a USA blade so they could get the Made In USA label. Surely they could have gotten some blade mfg to make a zillion of them at a somewhat competitive price?

If they are letting the label go for the difference in price of a blade it seems to me they aren't even interested in the USA label.

 

[MD11]

So, I read a lot of posts on here about USA this and China that, but I have a question that has been bugging me since a post I made about MAC tools. If a "made in USA" tool is actually made with "global" components but basically just finished here in the states, how can it really be made in the USA?

This isn't to start a flame war or anti-anycountry thread (as most of these posts seem to go), but how can you wave a flag for a company when 100% of the guts of the product come from somewhere else?

bottom line for me is where is most of the labor value added in? I.E. .. A Snap On power tool made with a few electronic parts from china, but assembled, engineered and tested in the USA is mostly USA and ok by me.. SURE, I prefer it to be 100% USA.. and my two Fender Custom build Jazz basses are an example of such things.. the screws, wires and every part except the rosewood is sourced, and made in the USA..

For me also, it's not just USA, but any EU or Japan made items that are acceptable because their labor is paid well and treated well.. I just don't want to subsidize some CEO's bonus on the back of some poor Chinese worker that makes $2/day working 6 or 7 days a week.. all the while we're displacing a well paid US or EU worker.

 

[franzdom]

Walmart says that they save every American family an average of $3100 per year in lower prices no matter where they shop

 

[MD11]

Walmart says that they save every American family an average of $3100 per year in lower prices no matter where they shop

Yup..

Well, when you consider they also cost the average family maybe 3-4 times that in lost wages due to making Americans compete with China, and add to that the fact that they then turn around and sell us that cheap Made in China **** that doesn't last and therefore makes us come back more often to buy more... I'd say, with the exception of the big investors and execs at W, we're all getting the short end of the stick!

 

[franzdom]

Yup..

Well, when you consider they also cost the average family maybe 3-4 times that in lost wages due to making Americans compete with China, and add to that the fact that they then turn around and sell us that cheap Made in China **** that doesn't last and therefore makes us come back more often to buy more... I'd say, with the exception of the big investors and execs at W, we're all getting the short end of the stick!

Yup that sounds about right thanks for clarification

 

[american lockpicker]

For me also, it's not just USA, but any EU or Japan made items that are acceptable because their labor is paid well and treated well.. I just don't want to subsidize some CEO's bonus on the back of some poor Chinese worker that makes $2/day working 6 or 7 days a week.. all the while we're displacing a well paid US or EU worker.

I agree with what you said.

 

[orange02ss]

I did a google search for Wright tools the other day and was extremely suprised to see they offer there tools. There prices are fairly competitive but seemed extremely odd to me. How many of these Hacksaws can i count you guys in for?http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=13182406

Thats for a box of ten, but still pretty pricey.

 

[Here2Learn]

I did a google search for Wright tools the other day and was extremely suprised to see they offer there tools. There prices are fairly competitive but seemed extremely odd to me. How many of these Hacksaws can i count you guys in for?http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=13182406

From a little further down the page: "Price is for 1 Box there are 10EA/BOX"

 

[benjamming]

That Walmart link also says
Assembled in Country of Origin: USA and/or Imported
Origin of Components: USA and/or Imported

Well, yeah. It's got to be domestic or imported. Those are the only 2 choices. Thank you Walmart for clearing that up.

It also says not available in stores. Buy online from csnstores.com Are they just using the Amazon model here?

 

[BB26]

Yup..

Well, when you consider they also cost the average family maybe 3-4 times that in lost wages due to making Americans compete with China, and add to that the fact that they then turn around and sell us that cheap Made in China **** that doesn't last and therefore makes us come back more often to buy more... I'd say, with the exception of the big investors and execs at W, we're all getting the short end of the stick!

This type of anti-global economy thinking puts our lowest wage earners at the greatest disadvantage. What do you say to the $10/hr service worker who, if forced to buy US or Euro made products, would be spending 3x the money for the goods that they need survive? Sounds like you would be putting a lot of people on the street or at least a lot more people on the government dole. Like it or not, cheap foreign goods are the best and only practical option for those who do not make a lot of money. Are we going to pay the customer service reps/waiters/retail associates/gas attendants/etc. more money simply b/c we manufacture everything in the US? NO. Instead, we would be crippling our service and low skilled workers through significantly decreased purchasing power.

Walmart has an excellent business model--Period. They offer the products that consumers demand at the best prices. Companies offering and people purchasing Chinese manufactured goods has nothing to do with Walmart specifically. They simply provide the products that consumers demand. Yes, that’s right, consumers are demanding the cheap Chinese goods. And for good reason. They want to make the most of their limited resources, which to most of us, includes purchasing some foreign sourced products. Walmart, like every other retail store, simply gives people what they ask for.

I grocery shop at Walmart and save a ton of money by doing so. I have a large family so the savings really adds up. They offer the same products that every other grocery store does; they are just cheaper. Walmart is a-ok in my book. Now I have more money to spend on US made tools.

/rant...now back to the tools!

 

[benjamming]

This type of anti-global economy thinking puts our lowest wage earners at the greatest disadvantage. What do you say to the $10/hr service worker who, if forced to buy US or Euro made products, would be spending 3x the money for the goods that they need survive? Sounds like you would be putting a lot of people on the street or at least a lot more people on the government dole. Like it or not, cheap foreign goods are the best and only practical option for those who do not make a lot of money. Are we going to pay the customer service reps/waiters/retail associates/gas attendants/etc. more money simply b/c we manufacture everything in the US? NO. Instead, we would be crippling our service and low skilled workers through significantly decreased purchasing power.

Walmart has an excellent business model--Period.

I bolded a couple sections that I would like to address.

First, they need to learn how to shop better if they are paying 3x the price for goods required to survive. Buying most things used is a great way to save. However, I may have overlooked categories where 3x the price is unavoidable. What categories did you have in mind here?

To the 2nd bit of text, less consumption is an option that most don't consider, but should. That's what my wife & I did.

Thirdly, Walmart's business model is excellent for them but ***** for their suppliers. So, it's not period.

Carry on.

 

[BB26]

I bolded a couple sections that I would like to address.

First, they need to learn how to shop better if they are paying 3x the price for goods required to survive. Buying most things used is a great way to save. However, I may have overlooked categories where 3x the price is unavoidable. What categories did you have in mind here?

To the 2nd bit of text, less consumption is an option that most don't consider, but should. That's what my wife & I did.

Thirdly, Walmart's business model is excellent for them but ***** for their suppliers. So, it's not period.

Carry on.

Clothing would be a perfect example. A necessity item that costs far more if made in the US. Last time I checked, there were not a whole lot of used US made clothes at the nearest second hand store.

Are you really arguing that most US made goods are not SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than most overseas alternatives?

Less consumption may not be possible when you need every penny of your minimum wage salary or for retired folks, SSI payment, to get by.

If it was so horrible for their suppliers, I doubt they would be doing business.

Lastly, their business model is excellent for the average US consumer. Period.

 

[Marlin]

The proposal you are referring to was never actually passed. I'm almost positive it's 51%. I hate to quote Wikipedia but here is an exert. Link.

In 1996 the FTC[1] proposed that the requirement be stated as:

It will not be considered a deceptive practice for a marketer to make an unqualified U.S. origin claim if, at the time it makes the claim, the marketer possesses and relies upon competent and reliable evidence that: (1) U.S. manufacturing costs constitute 75% of the total manufacturing costs for the product; and (2) the product was last substantially transformed in the United States.

However, this was just a proposal and never became part of the final guidelines which were published in the Federal Register[2] in 1997.

Your link actually supports what I said, at the beginning of the definition it refers to the "all or virtually all" requirement. The proposed part that was not adopted tried to tie it down to a certain percentage. The FTC page that I linked was the 1997 release saying the requirement would remain "all or virtually all".

 

[benjamming]

Clothing would be a perfect example. A necessity item that costs far more if made in the US. Last time I checked, there were not a whole lot of used US made clothes at the nearest second hand store.

Are you really arguing that most US made goods are not SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than most overseas alternatives?

Less consumption may not be possible when you need every penny of your minimum wage salary or for retired folks, SSI payment, to get by.

If it was so horrible for their suppliers, I doubt they would be doing business.

Lastly, their business model is excellent for the average US consumer. Period.

Clothes are a great example of shopping better. New Balance, for example, shoes that are made in USA are about the same price as ones made in China when comparing within model lines. Blue jeans are $30-40 by Texas Jean, Diamond Gusset, etc. Polo shirts are ~ $20-30. Socks are the same price as import, usually next to them on the same shelf. Now, if one is buying at the 2nd/3rd, etc. hand store, I don't reckon it matters where it was made as that doesn't affect the mfg either way.

I was saying that most US goods that people need to survive are not that much more, if any, expensive than overseas counterparts. Almost all food items are made in USA that one needs to survive, & even eat very well. I imagine that our definition of what those other goods are would be different, however.

When I said less consumption, I meant buying less trinkets, "stuff", non-necessary items to afford the items made in USA. Saving up until you can purchase them.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

Define average US consumer.

 

[t100]

there were about 100 garment factories till 1997-98 in El Monte, CA(Los Angeles). each hired from 200 to 500 workers. friend of mine was an electrician, he used to make extra 3 grand a month just working on the side jobs from these factories during after hours. by the end of 2000, all of them moved cross the boarder to Mexico, not even 1 of them stayed.


reason? too many, you can't sell more cloth by raising the price, but everything is going up and the regulations are getting tighter: labor cost, energy cost, material, tax, environmental, union, etc. so many other business feeding on these factories were closed or moved in the following year.
i'm not saying who's fault, because i don't know.

 

[FNFS2000]

Biggest fault, is government and the unions that pay for their agenda's in government. The only way this country will survive is to take a sharp turn to the libertarian party or some form of a party that gets back to the constitution...

 

[american lockpicker]

We need a government who only cares about US workers.

 

[BB26]

Clothes are a great example of shopping better. New Balance, for example, shoes that are made in USA are about the same price as ones made in China when comparing within model lines. Blue jeans are $30-40 by Texas Jean, Diamond Gusset, etc. Polo shirts are ~ $20-30. Socks are the same price as import, usually next to them on the same shelf. Now, if one is buying at the 2nd/3rd, etc. hand store, I don't reckon it matters where it was made as that doesn't affect the mfg either way.

I was saying that most US goods that people need to survive are not that much more, if any, expensive than overseas counterparts. Almost all food items are made in USA that one needs to survive, & even eat very well. I imagine that our definition of what those other goods are would be different, however.

When I said less consumption, I meant buying less trinkets, "stuff", non-necessary items to afford the items made in USA. Saving up until you can purchase them.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

Define average US consumer.

The prices that you describe for US made clothes can be significantly undercut by alternatives manufactured outside the US. I can get $15 jeans at Old Navy for myself, $10 jeans for my kids, $10 polo shirts for myself, and $5 polo shirts for my kids. And I can do far better price-wise than a $75-100 pair of NB shoes. You can argue all you like, but globalization reduces prices. And they would be reduced further were it not for protectionist economic policies, such as import tariffs.

The article that you post is an absolute joke. I will dismiss any article utilizing quotes from the far-left zealot “economist” Paul Krugman to support its point of view. Fact of the matter is that 93% of economists (1996 Washington Post/Harvard University Survey) believe that foreign competition is good for the US economy. Protectionism is little more than pandering to special interests, cloaked in nationalistic terms. The special interests in your silly article are the suppliers. The vast majority (American consumers) will benefit from foreign competition in the form of lower prices. The cost of saving these jobs (in terms of higher prices and jobs lost in other industries) is much greater than the benefits gained from protecting the jobs in question. The choice is not between jobs at home and job abroad, but between some jobs at home (with protectionism) and many more jobs at home (with free trade).

Do you realize how many jobs would be lost in your “lower your consumption to US made necessity items only” economic model? Do what you wish, it is your right, but your contraction approach applied on a grand scale would be an economic disaster. Without imports, you can say goodbye to our export markets and all of its associated jobs. And what would happen to the price of goods and consumer purchasing power? And then, what would happen to our standard of living?

This is getting far too political for this forum so I am done before I get in trouble…

 

[FNFS2000]

The prices that you describe for US made clothes can be significantly undercut by alternatives manufactured outside the US. I can get $15 jeans at Old Navy for myself, $10 jeans for my kids, $10 polo shirts for myself, and $5 polo shirts for my kids. And I can do far better price-wise than a $75-100 pair of NB shoes. You can argue all you like, but globalization reduces prices. And they would be reduced further were it not for protectionist economic policies, such as import tariffs.

The article that you post is an absolute joke. I will dismiss any article utilizing quotes from the far-left zealot “economist” Paul Krugman to support its point of view. Fact of the matter is that 93% of economists (1996 Washington Post/Harvard University Survey) believe that foreign competition is good for the US economy. Protectionism is little more than pandering to special interests, cloaked in nationalistic terms. The special interests in your silly article are the suppliers. The vast majority (American consumers) will benefit from foreign competition in the form of lower prices. The cost of saving these jobs (in terms of higher prices and jobs lost in other industries) is much greater than the benefits gained from protecting the jobs in question. The choice is not between jobs at home and job abroad, but between some jobs at home (with protectionism) and many more jobs at home (with free trade).

Do you realize how many jobs would be lost in your “lower your consumption to US made necessity items only” economic model? Do what you wish, it is your right, but your contraction approach applied on a grand scale would be an economic disaster. Without imports, you can say goodbye to our export markets and all of its associated jobs. And what would happen to the price of goods and consumer purchasing power? And then, what would happen to our standard of living?

This is getting far too political for this forum so I am done before I get in trouble…

You got it all there. Sounds like you've read some of the politically incorrect guide books.

 

[BB26]

You got it all there. Sounds like you've read some of the politically incorrect guide books.

Actually, I have an economics degree and some common sense.