Made in u.s.a.
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ganymede
Well-known member
3 months ? Wow. I guess 1930's through 1950's pliers would be dull in about 1 month since according to some here, modern tools are superior by technological default. Amazing how this nation was built with tools that lasted only a month.
Thank goodness for modern technology.
so I'm sitting in my cube, on a chair which was made down the street. I just had lunch with food sold here, made here, served here, and grown here. the soap I washed my hands with was made up the road. the paper towel a state away. my bottle of soda, made here, with CO2 made and filled here, in a bottle made in Ohio, a cap made in Indiana. The aspirin I took, made half an hour away.
i'll drive home in a car assembled 2hrs. away, with gas drilled and refined here, delivered by us drivers. When I get home my us made mailbox will be full of junk mail delivered by a us worker. in a house grown from wood upstate, a furnace made in Missouri, a water heater an hour away...with power generated here, maintained by us workers...and watch tv with us actors, writers, set designers, ad writers...or read a magazine printed here, or surf the net on an internet service provider based and serviced here.
still think there's no work left here? standing on an assembly line vs. service is like cheese and bleach you say?
think of it this way. no society can be 100% vertically integrated. You don't grow your own food at home, raise livestock, generate your own power do you? no you add value as your time and abilities allow, and sub out things that can be done easier/cheaper/more efficiently. Just like most products. Henry Ford was nearly 100% vertically integrated, and the cost of trying to be an expert at running an iron ore mine, growing rubber trees, making paint, and everything else proved out over time to be nearly impossible.
I doubt most people miss working in the mine. or sewing clothes all day. it is human nature to want to get past subsistence work, and use your mind.
so you may think, but yeah that is my neighbors and fellow citizens getting money from those jobs, and I care about them more than someone who lives further from me....what if we extend that logic to the states, only by Michigan products, those Ohioan's are horrible, I don't like their governor or their laws!...kinda ridiculous. eh?
so why do we extend that to other people? I have lots of friends all over the world. I'd like to see them prosper as well. my idiot neighbor? maybe not so much...
btw, the company I work for currently sold $8 BILLION worth of product in Asia last year. to people who made their money by making cheap stuff to sell back to us...we compete because of the value proposition. They want our products.
Kinda like how Harley competed against the Japanese bikes. you get hungry and you find a way. then you sell back to them.
just another way to think about things...
i'll drive home in a car assembled 2hrs. away, with gas drilled and refined here, delivered by us drivers. When I get home my us made mailbox will be full of junk mail delivered by a us worker. in a house grown from wood upstate, a furnace made in Missouri, a water heater an hour away...with power generated here, maintained by us workers...and watch tv with us actors, writers, set designers, ad writers...or read a magazine printed here, or surf the net on an internet service provider based and serviced here.
still think there's no work left here? standing on an assembly line vs. service is like cheese and bleach you say?
think of it this way. no society can be 100% vertically integrated. You don't grow your own food at home, raise livestock, generate your own power do you? no you add value as your time and abilities allow, and sub out things that can be done easier/cheaper/more efficiently. Just like most products. Henry Ford was nearly 100% vertically integrated, and the cost of trying to be an expert at running an iron ore mine, growing rubber trees, making paint, and everything else proved out over time to be nearly impossible.
I doubt most people miss working in the mine. or sewing clothes all day. it is human nature to want to get past subsistence work, and use your mind.
so you may think, but yeah that is my neighbors and fellow citizens getting money from those jobs, and I care about them more than someone who lives further from me....what if we extend that logic to the states, only by Michigan products, those Ohioan's are horrible, I don't like their governor or their laws!...kinda ridiculous. eh?
so why do we extend that to other people? I have lots of friends all over the world. I'd like to see them prosper as well. my idiot neighbor? maybe not so much...
btw, the company I work for currently sold $8 BILLION worth of product in Asia last year. to people who made their money by making cheap stuff to sell back to us...we compete because of the value proposition. They want our products.
Kinda like how Harley competed against the Japanese bikes. you get hungry and you find a way. then you sell back to them.
just another way to think about things...
My head hurts trying to figure out what you just said.
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Don't think anyone said there's no work here. My point was that there are very few "protected" jobs in the US. i.e., for many of the same reasons we lost manufacturing jobs, we will (are) losing jobs in every other segment of the workforce, including agriculture and those wonderful, fulfilling, professional jobs we're banking on. I'm a proud American, but I don't have a lot of confidence in the "we'll work harder and be smarter and figure our a way" strategy. I work in a multi-national company, and I see first hand that China, India, etc. has a lot of really smart, hard working people... willing to work for much less than any American, working for companies (or divisions / suppliers) that aren't burdened by cost related to regulations, health, safety, environment, welfare, etc.
Products (and services) that come from "other" states (or other first world countries) for the most part come from entities that have similar cost structures... based on the fact they need to pay a certain level of compensation (& adhere to certain regulations that are for the greater good).
There are good companies in China and India, and state of the art factories that pay decent wages, etc. But the fact is those are the exception. I'd bet that $10 grinder you bought at Harbor Freight didn't come from a factory in China that's found on many "great places to work" lists.
Same with your company. We sell stuff to China, sure, but that's a huge exception.
The "it's a global economy" scenario ends in two ways:
(1) China / India implement standard of living regulations similar to first world countries. This would "pull up" (or create) a middle class there. The Harbor Freight / Walmart / I have friends in China contingent seems to think this is the way things are going to pan out. Of course there are downsides... their costs go way up, imports way down, etc. The people that could do this in those countries aren't going to allow it anytime soon. It would take a labor revolution.... good luck with that in China, India, etc!
(2) First world costs (jobs) fall to a "competitive" level found in 3rd world countries (or rather, just go away, as we've seen).
Or, (2a), We just borrow like crazy and enjoy our standard of living in the short term.... & of course our kids will figure out that harder / smarter thing (like Apple and Harley have) eventually.... just disregard that national debt & $350 Billion ANNUAL (and growing) trade deficit with China.
ganymede
Well-known member
Some people think modern tools are better than older ones.
I was using your example as proof that they're full of ****.
good points. I am in camp (1), but I'm an optimist...(2a) is most likely...
not worried about my kids, they are millennial's, all they need is a pair of flip-flops, a key lanyard, and a smartphone. and maybe an ugly hat.
Well there you go... I think we've gotten to the bottom of it. I'm a pessimist and my kids are younger... I'm expecting they'll need a good job to buy really nice shoes and expensive cars that drive themselves.
toddoky
Well-known member
Poor quality, toxic, counterfeit goods can also just as easily be made in a modern clean facility as they can in a dive. It's a point of cultural pride for Chinese factory owners to engage in shifty practices and cheapen the quality of the products they make for their American customers over time to bolster their margins. I've worked with China sourcing of products on the engineering level for 15 years and witness the same **** they pull to stiff the customer over and over again. They have a hard time making products to original print specifications and constantly change design details/characteristics of products they ship you as they sub-contract out the parts to lower their cost at your expense. We are not their friends and they don't give **** about the quality of what they send over here. I don't want more cheap products in my life, I want safe, high-quality products that may have to cost more to obtain. American made tools are not expensive (unless you have a ****** paying service job), Chinese products are artificially cheap compared to the human and evrironmental costs associated with their production and obtainment. If you are such a proponent of service jobs then you should understand that nothing creates a greater volume of them than a robust manufacturing base.
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Oh ok I gotcha. Yeah they definitely are garbage.
This entire thread is starting to make my head hurt lol
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Just a thought on the "We were built on capitalism" point of view. For capitalism to work within a society, both the supply side and the consumption side need to be "free" to operate as the market dictates. What we have today:
(1) China is a much more "capitalistic" environment than the US (at least on the supply side). i.e., Businesses are relatively free (unconstrained) to do whatever they want to do to maximize profits (notably in lowering costs). Short of starting WW3 and ruling the world, this isn't directly fixable by the US.
(2) US producers on the other hand, are forced to operate in a much more "socialistic" (regulated) environment... in theory for the greater good (minimum wage, social security, overtime, environment, etc.). We can debate the effectiveness of these types of regulations, but most of us probably agree that there's some sense in the theory, and we probably wouldn't want to live in a society with no safety or environmental laws.... so this won't materially change anytime soon.
(3) The US consumption side of course still operates in a very capitalistic manner, both from a macro level (relatively speaking, we don't restrict trade, or hold imported products & services to the same standard as domestic (in terms of HOW they're created)) and a micro level mindset in that most individuals want (& have) the freedom to buy whatever they want (i.e., presented with two seemingly similar products, most people buy the cheaper one).
Any of these three on their own might not be detrimental the the health of the US economy, but put them together and the results are pretty obvious (see: trade deficit and national debt).
If there's a fix, it's obviously not easy. It's probably parts of all three to varying degrees. Futile as it may be, most "Buy US" individuals are saying they don't support (& feed) how China does business, they do support socially responsible business practices, and they're using their freedom of choice to spend a little more on quality products made in responsible ways.
(1) China is a much more "capitalistic" environment than the US (at least on the supply side). i.e., Businesses are relatively free (unconstrained) to do whatever they want to do to maximize profits (notably in lowering costs). Short of starting WW3 and ruling the world, this isn't directly fixable by the US.
(2) US producers on the other hand, are forced to operate in a much more "socialistic" (regulated) environment... in theory for the greater good (minimum wage, social security, overtime, environment, etc.). We can debate the effectiveness of these types of regulations, but most of us probably agree that there's some sense in the theory, and we probably wouldn't want to live in a society with no safety or environmental laws.... so this won't materially change anytime soon.
(3) The US consumption side of course still operates in a very capitalistic manner, both from a macro level (relatively speaking, we don't restrict trade, or hold imported products & services to the same standard as domestic (in terms of HOW they're created)) and a micro level mindset in that most individuals want (& have) the freedom to buy whatever they want (i.e., presented with two seemingly similar products, most people buy the cheaper one).
Any of these three on their own might not be detrimental the the health of the US economy, but put them together and the results are pretty obvious (see: trade deficit and national debt).
If there's a fix, it's obviously not easy. It's probably parts of all three to varying degrees. Futile as it may be, most "Buy US" individuals are saying they don't support (& feed) how China does business, they do support socially responsible business practices, and they're using their freedom of choice to spend a little more on quality products made in responsible ways.
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Good post. I would add another drag on any business trying to manufacture goods here in the US.
We are an over-privileged, self indulgent, spoiled society with a ridiculous idea about what a fair wage actually is. We all think we are entitled to big screen televisions with satellite service, smart phones, high speed internet and the most recent gaming console. If an employer isn't paying even the most junior workers enough to buy all these things we vote for politicians who promise to impose more taxes on the business then give it to the workers in the form of tax credits. Or take money from our neighbor who we think is rich and redistribute as tax credits because we deserve that DVR to record our favorite cable TV shows.
flhtbb
Member
I'm a fan of Ebay and try not to buy any new tools, I also try to buy made in USA when possible. I like buying old tools and also try to keep all me old tools, Cars, appliances, lawn mowers, snowblower what ever in my eyes old is always better. just my opinion.
Kmt803
Well-known member
I'm the same way,like the old US brands like Blackhawk Easco Thorsen and the like.
I think part of the problem is that we are a society that has to have the newest/best of everything. If you have last year's model, you're obsolete and outdated. I mean, a used car, used tool, used whatever must mean you're a cheapskate, go buy new.
Many manufacturers and society in general makes us believe that if we don't have the latest and greatest of whatever it is, we're missing out on something.
I also feel that we buy what we cannot afford. Do you need to buy the newest car when you might save a few dollars with a good used one? Maybe save or invest that money you would have spent on the new one.
If you can only afford a $10k car, why are you buying a $15k car? Priorities are often skewed in the wrong direction.
I for one don't buy what I cannot afford, including buying on credit. I know several folks that got wrapped up in their credit cards and it's a downward vortex in most cases.
They are a great idea maybe the crappy steel was the problem, the teeth looked kinda messed up after minimal use.
Titanium Steel
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2012
- Messages
- 431
^+1. Poncho clearly has a legitimate grasp on the issue at hand, as do some here as well. In a way some of us are so obsessed with materialistic objects, some lose sight of everything else.
Black Friday is sadly a good example for this. This used to be the day after Thanksgiving and now is the same day of Thanksgiving. What is really pathetic is that is the one day those lucky enough to spend time with family, friends claim to be thankful for what they have only for some to camp out for good "deals", injure or kill others just to get items for "cheap prices" as well.
Let's be honest, materialism does not equal true happiness. No matter how much you spend or own, you may never be truly happy, as this is a never ending cycle.
I personally know a person that does that, mostly with electronics. This person must have the latest phone, smart watch, clothing or game system. If they don't they told me, others might make fun of them or won't be having that much fun. None of these items are USA made and he has told me and they has already maxed out two credit cards.
Even if these were USA made, he has some much debt, not sure how he is going to be able to pay this all off considering new products frequently come out. Considering the interest rate, that doesn't help either.
Ultimately, if you can't afford an item or service, either this is best to save up or not buy this right now/ever. As you don't want to lose everything and trust me, that can and has happened before.
Yes, this makes sense to support your domestic country, wherever that might be, but in general, this is a wise to consider your financial situation.
Now and days, there will always be a new fanged electronic product, but that doesn't mean you must buy this.
It's my .02....I will also throw in that a lot of folks don't want to be bothered to fix anything. Throw in that a lot of companies don't offer repair parts and we are cooking our own goose.
Years back when you bought a power tool, what came with it? Instructions. What were in those instructions? A parts list. That meant the item was MADE to be repaired.
Sears, among others had the "We Service What We Sell" motto. It made them money. The handy DIY'er among us bought the parts and fixed it. I know we did in my house. It was like a funeral if we got rid of something that we couldn't fix because it wasn't worth it. But, typically we did. LOL.
My uncle used to say, "You know, your father and I used to fix things together (My father is passed away now this uncle was his BIL). Because back then you could fix them and who could afford a new one? That's what you did back then....". I don't see that comraderie among people today. You'd band together and help each other, having a few laughs in the process.
We've become an isolated society and we don't get together and help out like we used to. I make it a point to know my neighbors. I recently got new neighbors across the street, and I made it a point to go over, shake their hand and say hello. The neighbor said, "You were friends with the people that sold me the house, right?" I said, "Yup, my family talks to them all the time. The woman was just over the house having lunch with my mother last week, and we had the key to the house for an emergency....".
I for one enjoy fixing things. I get a sense of accomplishment and I feel like I learned in the process....