Main bedroom addition

[billconner]

Thinking about adding a master bedroom on ground floor. Age and knees making stairs (code min 8.25 x 9 in NY) harder. Just in thinking stage.

First question have not built "new" since the requirements for continuous exterior insulation was added. I'd like to stick with the vinyl siding currently on house. So, short of ZipR sheathing, what are viable options for vinyl over foam? Furring strips 16" OC but not sure the vinyl manufacturers are fully on board with that. And I suspect ply sheathing over foam doesnt meet lateral bracing needs. It may be ZipR - or a clone - is only way to really do it.

NY amends IRC to allow cavity insulation only (23) if you increase ceiling from 49 to 60. Unfortunately they don't allow the IRC option of continuous insulation on roof of 30 instead of 49 in a cavity. That's important as I'd like to do a 2x6 t&g ceiling with foam on top, and would prefer less than 9 or 10".

fwiw I was thinking Mooney wall or maybe double stud on 2x8 sills if I can get around the continuous insulation/vinyl siding. Maybe Mooney wall with 2x6 24 OC should get the 23 with dense pack cellulose.

I was hoping for the simplicity of prescriptive requirements but could look at some of the performance alternatives. I do want it right and very well insulated, so not trying to just get by.

 

[Hank11]

I would just go with Zip-R and be done. At this point, it’s well proven, there’s plenty of examples of how to put it on. And honestly, for a one room addition, you’re not gonna have to buy that much of it. I think the 1 1/2” version will get you where you need to go. IIRC, its is still nailable and does not require long screws. But even a couple hundred long screws aren’t that expensive. Check the Huber site to be sure.

Code requirements aside, stopping airflow is essential. The full Zip system let you build the tightest walls you can.

 

[loganb]

ZipR is easy. For a single room master addition where comfort is key and winters are cold I might be tempted to do a conventional wall with standard zip sheathing then use mineral wool insulation on the exterior. Could use comfort board for thinner or go all out and use a full 2x4 furred cavity and put 3.5" mineral wool in.

Couple of triple pane casement windows and good execution on the air sealing details at the plates and soffit and will be a very comfortable, enjoyable space!

 

[toolmiser]

Put in a 36" door for accessibly

 

[BobnCO]

I get it.. 8.25” x 9”; those aren’t stairs… that’s a ladder! . I like zip wall, I’ve not installed vinyl, but like everything you should pick a brand and read the specs.

 

[dcg9381]

You can roll your own zip-R if you want (OSB over foam), but as others have mentioned, I'd just go with Zip-R. It's great (make sure you understand how to tape it and use the pressure tool). Don't over-drive the nails. In the scope of a project like this, just buy the right material.

 

[mike93lx]

code min 8.25 x 9 in NY

Bill, can you elaborate what you mean by this? From what I can see, the 8.25" is max riser height and 9" is min tread depth, so I'm not picturing why this is a problem

 

[theoldwizard1]

In general, additions are very hard to heat/cool. Spend the money for extra insulation (2x6 studs). If you are pouring a slab, make sure it has at least 2" of foam insulation.

Trust me, you will want a mini-split heat pump. Consider a way to block that room off from the rest of the house.

 

[75gmck25]

Include a new master bath with 36" wide door and a zero entry shower. Make it large enough to wheel in the shower while in a wheelchair. You can also use Schlueter Kerdi or other products under the tile and make the entire bathroom floor waterproof. It makes everything easier if you are trying to help someone take shower or have to clean up a mess.

Put wide blocking (at least 10") all around the main areas centered at about 36" off the floor. This will give you the wall strength needed to add grab bars around the shower, toilet, etc. Also reinforce for vertical grab bars in the shower and/or if you want to add a wall-mounted shower seat.

Try to find a designer who can give you a layout that makes the bedroom and bath easy for access, without looking like you are building a handicapped room. It does not need to look like you are living in a retirement home. Many contractors claim they know how to build for ADA compliance, but they don't really know how to make it attractive.

 

[dcg9381]

Put in a 36" door for accessibly

If you don't need it tightly closed, "barn door" it - less "swing area" and you can easily go wider than 36".

OP, provide a floor plan.

Mini-split all day long.

 

[billconner]

Bill, can you elaborate what you mean by this? From what I can see, the 8.25" is max riser height and 9" is min tread depth, so I'm not picturing why this is a problem

Terrible stair geometry. Stumbled, leading to falls and injuries, increase per use when the tread is less than 11 1/2 or 12" or the rise is greater than about 6 1/2". I have to turn my size 12 foot quite far and thus much less stable. I gave a bad knee from an injury and using these risers are the only place it's painful. On all I've built - typically around 6 or less inch risers and 13" treads - no pain and no chance of catching my toe on the nosing ascending.

 

[mike93lx]

Terrible stair geometry. Stumbled, leading to falls and injuries, increase per use when the tread is less than 11 1/2 or 12" or the rise is greater than about 6 1/2". I have to turn my size 12 foot quite far and thus much less stable. I gave a bad knee from an injury and using these risers are the only place it's painful. On all I've built - typically around 6 or less inch risers and 13" treads - no pain and no chance of catching my toe on the nosing ascending.

I'm still lost... Why can't you do the size you want?

I wear a 15, so I sympathize on short treads.

 

[billconner]

In general, additions are very hard to heat/cool. Spend the money for extra insulation (2x6 studs). If you are pouring a slab, make sure it has at least 2" of foam insulation.

Trust me, you will want a mini-split heat pump. Consider a way to block that room off from the rest of the house.

Planning on a heat pump. The natural placement is at an existing exterior back door, which I plan to leave. I haven't ruled out a radiant slab if the present boiler can handle the load, but would prefer not to. I lean toward double stud or Mooney wall, dense packed cellulose. Rigid continuous foam on top of deck. Newest IRC gives a lot of credit for that - a conventional ceiling and roof in my zone has to be R49. Continuous foam only R30.

Of course shallow frost protected foundation. Will peek into the idea of a non-concrete slab, but think it's too far for this building department.

 

[billconner]

Include a new master bath with 36" wide door and a zero entry shower. Make it large enough to wheel in the shower while in a wheelchair. You can also use Schlueter Kerdi or other products under the tile and make the entire bathroom floor waterproof. It makes everything easier if you are trying to help someone take shower or have to clean up a mess.

Put wide blocking (at least 10") all around the main areas centered at about 36" off the floor. This will give you the wall strength needed to add grab bars around the shower, toilet, etc. Also reinforce for vertical grab bars in the shower and/or if you want to add a wall-mounted shower seat.

Try to find a designer who can give you a layout that makes the bedroom and bath easy for access, without looking like you are building a handicapped room. It does not need to look like you are living in a retirement home. Many contractors claim they know how to build for ADA compliance, but they don't really know how to make it attractive.

Agree. Not sure of exact products but zero entry shower and generally accessible. I have a bit of a start as a 25+ year member of the committee that writes the standard for accessibility. It gives me easy access to some really good people on this subject. No-steps entry is already in. Probably need a short ramp up from existing to stay far enough above the ground.

The other doors in the house are mostly 30" but luckily only two on ground floor - basement so doesn't matter and half bath, for which we'll have an option.

 

[billconner]

I'm still lost... Why can't you do the size you want?

I wear a 15, so I sympathize on short treads.

Existing stairs in house we bought. I have looked at rebuilding the stairs and/or adding a lift instead of adding bedroom on (off?) main level. But now that you bring it up, maybe instead of rebuilding existing, build an addition just for new stairs and convert existing into? An office, pantry, closet, storage, ???, a lift (elevator if you'd rather)?

 

[mike93lx]

Existing stairs in house we bought. I have looked at rebuilding the stairs and/or adding a lift instead of adding bedroom on (off?) main level. But now that you bring it up, maybe instead of rebuilding existing, build an addition just for new stairs and convert existing into? An office, pantry, closet, storage, ???, a lift (elevator if you'd rather)?

Ahh, my mistake. I wasn't thinking about your existing stairs being out of spec

 

[WisJim]

I think that as you get older and your joints get stiffer or more painful, that a ground level bedroom makes a lot more sense than improving the stairway to the upper level. Also, regarding insulation standards, remember that the building code requirements are MINIMUMS, not necessarily optimum levels of insulation. In the long run, insulation and air sealing is cheaper than buying fuel.

 

[duneslider]

Bill, can you elaborate what you mean by this? From what I can see, the 8.25" is max riser height and 9" is min tread depth, so I'm not picturing why this is a problem

He means in his advancing age they are getting hard to go up and down. I grew up in a house that had 8.5x9 stairs and my parents got to the point it just wasn't safe for them. Even as a kid they felt really steep to me.

 

[mike93lx]

He means in his advancing age they are getting hard to go up and down. I grew up in a house that had 8.5x9 stairs and my parents got to the point it just wasn't safe for them. Even as a kid they felt really steep to me.

I missed that this was about existing stair and was confused why a new build/reno would be a problem.

I'm well away from advanced age and would love a single story house. Screw stairs

 

[duneslider]

The exterior insulation thing is going to be a thorn in the side of builders in a lot of areas. Zip R won't meet bracing in my area, and most areas with seismic concerns. Its dificult to even purchase zip R where I am due to this reason, I've never even seen it. I haven't seen anyone doing exterior insulation in my area, they are still allowing thicker walls that increase the insulation and the little rumors I am hearing not many cities are interested in enforcing the exterior insulation at the moment.

Like its always said, give the local AHJ a call and discuss it with them. Tell them you want to do a good job but have some concerns and see if they would be open to the double stud wall and good air sealing they may be fine with it for your situation.

 

[finn]

You’re on the right path putting on an addition so you can live on one level. Making plans for handicap accessibility, including a walk in shower, wide doors, and easy outside access.is spot on.

Make sure the laundry is on the first floor and accessible is a must.

Frankly, I would encourage you to look around for another home, or even an apartment or condo that better fits your needs. I also know that isn’t a reasonable consideration for someone who’s lived in their home for decades.

My own mother lived in a modest ranch style house with everything but th laundry on the same level.

Guess what: she missed a step going down the stairs and broke her shoulder when in her late seventies. It never really healed. We ended up having a contractor build a closet in the corner of the dining room for the laundry. Never convince her to ditch the bathtub and install a walk in shower. She was afraid the house wouldn’t be salable when she passed if there was no tub.

Guess what: the house sold and the new owners, a retired couple immediately ripped out the tub and installed a walk in shower.

My sister in law has a house that sounds like yours. Circa 1880 house with steep stairs. My brother in law ripped out a wall and decreased the pitch, but it’s still a disaster. She had a medical emergency and it was all the EMTs could do to navigate her down those infernal stairs. Can’t talk them into considering a move to a safer house though. Guess that in the end it’s their decision.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Planning on a heat pump. ... I haven't ruled out a radiant slab if the present boiler can handle the load, but would prefer not to.

Both !

Do you have a radiant slab now ? In floor heat is SO COMFORTABLE !!!

 

[billconner]

Make sure the laundry is on the first floor and accessible is a must.

The current combo laundry room/pantry is off the kitchen - and it's the door from there to exterior that would be entrance to bedroom. There's a slider in kitchen 10-12' from here plus will have door to exterior from a bedroom vestibule. So got that!

 

[billconner]

Frankly, I would encourage you to look around for another home,

Finn - I hear you. We moved here for retirement in 2019 and probably should of bought or built a ranch on a slab on grade. But now we have modified this 1994 2 story with full basement: total kitchen and pantry redo, replaced all first floor carpet with hardwood, changed fireplace insert and surround, finished attached 2 car unheated garage for my wife's art studio, built a detached 2+ car garage, landscape improvements, and just finished a major porch addition and renovation. So would be very hard to move.

We discuss moving to be near son and 2 1/2 year old grandson, the likely path when there is just one of us for sure.

 

[mike93lx]

Finn - I hear you. We moved here for retirement in 2019 and probably should of bought or built a ranch on a slab on grade. But now we have modified this 1994 2 story with full basement: total kitchen and pantry redo, replaced all first floor carpet with hardwood, changed fireplace insert and surround, finished attached 2 car unheated garage for my wife's art studio, built a detached 2+ car garage, landscape improvements, and just finished a major porch addition and renovation. So would be very hard to move.

We discuss moving to be near son and 2 1/2 year old grandson, the likely path when there is just one of us for sure.

Move near your grandkids while you both can enjoy it. Those years will be far more meaningful to everyone involved than any home improvements you have or will ever do

 

[dave*99]

Finn - I hear you. We moved here for retirement in 2019 and probably should of bought or built a ranch on a slab on grade. But now we have modified this 1994 2 story with full basement: total kitchen and pantry redo, replaced all first floor carpet with hardwood, changed fireplace insert and surround, finished attached 2 car unheated garage for my wife's art studio, built a detached 2+ car garage, landscape improvements, and just finished a major porch addition and renovation. So would be very hard to move.

We discuss moving to be near son and 2 1/2 year old grandson, the likely path when there is just one of us for sure.

Think long and hard about this. Sounds like you have a big place and this project makes it bigger.

Adding space you can access is an admission that there are spaces that will go unused.

How about waiting a bit longer and jumping to a fully accessible place of the appropriate size at the right time.

Years ago my parents left a 3 bedroom rancher for a 55 community. The rancher still had steps into the house, laundry in basement and lots to maintain. They were in their 70’s and said they should have done it sooner.

I understand the resistance to this based on your current property description. Maybe now it’s too early to jump. Just think it through.

 

[billconner]

Good points. I'm still pretty healthy (my doctor says very healthy for a 74 year old - next month) and active. It's why I can DIY an addition. But we will think about it.

 

[billconner]

Obviously your comments have caused us to consider the big picture and not being immortal. I think we will proceed on both fronts, making long term plans to move near our son - buying land or maybe a small house there - while doing the bedroom addition here. Even if we only stay here 3 to 5 years, we think it's worth it. Will add value we or heirs will see, and we'll like it. And this is a vacation land, where population doubles in summer for good reason. We enjoy it, and moving to appalacia fulltime doesn't do it for us now. And we can afford both.

So back to planning.

 

[denis4x4]

We bought a house and did 2 remodels. Both remodels took into consideration ADA requirements. Did the same thing in a previous house that made it desirable in a down market. Prices of home elevators have come down. Weigh the costs of an elevator installation vs. a whole room/bath addition and the time it will take. BTW, the term "master bedroom" is no longer politically correct!

 

[mike93lx]

Obviously your comments have caused us to consider the big picture and not being immortal. I think we will proceed on both fronts, making long term plans to move near our son - buying land or maybe a small house there - while doing the bedroom addition here. Even if we only stay here 3 to 5 years, we think it's worth it. Will add value we or heirs will see, and we'll like it. And this is a vacation land, where population doubles in summer for good reason. We enjoy it, and moving to appalacia fulltime doesn't do it for us now. And we can afford both.

So back to planning.

Making this the family vacation home could be great.

Good luck with the project and (eventual) move.

My folks moved near us last year and get to spend tons of time with my kids, whereas my in-laws don't like to travel and see the kids in person maybe once a year and on FaceTime.

I'll definitely follow along with the project

 

[billconner]

room/bath addition and the time it will take. BTW, the term "master bedroom" is no longer politically correct!

Missed that until now. Will try to change title. Thanks! Just used the term ID heard for 70 years.

 

[billconner]

Well, to throw it all out:

Starting with a slab on grade, frost protected shallow foundation. Frost depth here is 48" and I don't need more basement. Will look into radiant but guess present boiler will not handle addition. Thought heat pump and put heads in rest of house for a/c and less expensive heat some of year. Weighing polished concrete versus wood flooring, factoring in radiant. Lots of foam or maybe glavel in the ground.

Stick built walls, Still not sure, but like Mooney or double stud. Vinyl exterior to match exustkng. Would like to do all myself so probably not spray foam. I was thinking drywall but my wife suggested painted t&g or nickle gap or perhaps paneling. I have thought about an mdo with battens as a possibility. Or sheetrock but hire tapers. Ideal - imperial skin coat system but finding plasteres is not easy. Tile floor to ceiling in bathroom.

Pretty focused on a kind of timber frame roof. Ridge beam Something like 6 by 8s or 10s 5 or 6' on center, 2x6 t&g decking, rigid foam, sleepers, sheathing, asphalt shingles to match existing.

Playing with windows and sightlines from/to neighbors.

That's starting point.

 

[billconner]

If I want to do a simple slab on grade and my wife wants t&g wood floor, would you just attach ply subfloor to slab or put it on sleepers?

They used to bury sleepers in a slab - ripped in a trapezoid profile so it can't be pulled out. Doubt I could find a concrete contractor to do that today.

Then, either sub floor with or without, does it go to edge of slab so wall sits on it, or float inside walls? Building Sciences Inc details show subfloor under walls.

And then the no concrete slab came to mind. I just worry about the strange looks I'd get.

 

[mike93lx]

If I want to do a simple slab on grade and my wife wants t&g wood floor, would you just attach ply subfloor to slab or put it on sleepers?

They used to bury sleepers in a slab - ripped in a trapezoid profile so it can't be pulled out. Doubt I could find a concrete contractor to do that today.

Then, either sub floor with or without, does it go to edge of slab so wall sits on it, or float inside walls? Building Sciences Inc details show subfloor under walls.

And then the no concrete slab came to mind. I just worry about the strange looks I'd get.

How about the dricore panels? Instead of sleepers, I'd consider foam panels with subfloor on that

 

[billconner]

New slab, it will be well insulated and drained. Will use Stego or equal. Not worried about moisture from slab. I wouldn't even use pressure treated for sleepers.

Unless I go to no concrete slab, probably sleepers and build exterior walls on top of it. Otherwise I'll need a triple sill plate.

 

[duneslider]

I would do the no concrete slab in this case. Also, allows you to more easily handle the diy aspect. The no concrete slab is a good way to go especially if you are wanting wood floors.

 

[dave*99]

Stick built walls, Still not sure, but like Mooney or double stud. Vinyl exterior to match exustkng. Would like to do all myself so probably not spray foam. I was thinking drywall but my wife suggested painted t&g or nickle gap or perhaps paneling. I have thought about an mdo with battens as a possibility. Or sheetrock but hire tapers. Ideal - imperial skin coat system but finding plasteres is not easy. Tile floor to ceiling in bathroom.

I did Nickel gap as wainscot in my stairwell, hallway and powder room. The open concept Kitchen, DR, LR has V groove T&G on the ceiling with crown molding and battens.

My buddy has drywall and one accent wall with floor to ceiling nickel gap in LR and MBR.

My point? Mix and match textures, consider an accent wall etc.

 

[billconner]

I would do the no concrete slab in this case. Also, allows you to more easily handle the diy aspect. The no concrete slab is a good way to go especially if you are wanting wood floors.

Well, that's what my brain says but frankly never thought anyone on GJ would say that. I haven't found an example of one with a frost protected shallow foundation yet but shouldn't be that hard. Now do I do the stem wall - which is really a turned down slab edge - in block? Leaves only 80' of footer at 12x8, aprox 2 yards. 120 bags. Or do a 1' x 2' all in one - 6 yes - and ready mix. Or ICF with 12" core since I don't own form work.

 

[billconner]

I did Nickel gap as wainscot in my stairwell, hallway and powder room. The open concept Kitchen, DR, LR has V groove T&G on the ceiling with crown molding and battens.

My buddy has drywall and one accent wall with floor to ceiling nickel gap in LR and MBR.

My point? Mix and match textures, consider an accent wall etc.

Agree with mix. We like the t&g ceiling and avoids taping overhead. And wood floors. I think one has to be careful in mixing in other types of wood on walls even if painted. And we love the bullnose corners in studio with just drywall returns in thick walls.

 

[duneslider]

Well, that's what my brain says but frankly never thought anyone on GJ would say that. I haven't found an example of one with a frost protected shallow foundation yet but shouldn't be that hard. Now do I do the stem wall - which is really a turned down slab edge - in block? Leaves only 80' of footer at 12x8, aprox 2 yards. 120 bags. Or do a 1' x 2' all in one - 6 yes - and ready mix. Or ICF with 12" core since I don't own form work.

Again, for the diy aspect the block or icf is the way to go. ICF does require bracing for the pour but at your height that shouldn't be a big deal either. The only part I struggle with ICF is how best to treat the exterior finish. My friend did his whole house icf and basically just "stucco'd" the foundation above grade and its holding up fine but thats really my only concern with icf but nowdays its also getting to be pretty commom to have exterior foam on foundations as well and they are making that work too.

I don't think the detail for the no concrete slab would be any different for a shallow frost protected foundation? Here is your link though, you aren't the first. No concrete slab shallow frost protected