Main breaker panel location restrictions?

[Raisedonadeere]

My garage is stick build. The place where I would like to put electrical main breaker panel is one stud bay away from garage 10x12 door and in a stud bay adjacent to a window. The window is a corner window that happened as a after thought when I became the owner of a free window.

I haven't seen much information on requirements regarding panel location except for working room specs and things dealing with being adjacent to plumbing.

Are there any no no's with regard to location relative to windows and doors? I am considering surface mounting the panel rather than recessing it

 

[Raisedonadeere]

BTW service enters underground up through the floor through conduit placed in the monolithic concrete pour.

 

[u2slow]

It ***** not to have room on either side of the panel. I don't know what NEC specifies; but I'm supposed to have ~16" clear on each side of the panel center-line. Aside from a local outlet(s) at/under the panel, you have to go up with everything else.

Is there another place across the shop that would be good for a sub-panel?

 

[mike93lx]

Behind a door is perfect for a panel since you have to leave it clear in front and it's a space that can't ever be blocked anyway.

Between the window and door is fine, as long as you want to give up both the wall and floor space there

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It ***** not to have room on either side of the panel. I don't know what NEC specifies; but I'm supposed to have ~16" clear on each side of the panel center-line. Aside from a local outlet(s) at/under the panel, you have to go up with everything else.

Is there another place across the shop that would be good for a sub-panel?

Is that a local amendment?

The nec just says 30" side to side but doesnt specify center line or from which side.

It could be 30" from right edge of panel to the left or vice versa or centered.

Also need 6' overhead and 36" in front of panel.

 

[u2slow]

Is that a local amendment?

The nec just says 30" side to side but doesnt specify center line or from which side.

It could be 30" from right edge of panel to the left or vice versa or centered.

Side clearance isn't specified anywhere in the CEC afaik, but I got that from my local inspector. 400mm (~16") to each side of center. Its a takeaway from the building & fire codes to allow for a "doorway's worth" of clearance.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Behind a door is perfect for a panel since you have to leave it clear in front and it's a space that can't ever be blocked anyway.

Between the window and door is fine, as long as you want to give up both the wall and floor space there

I have other options if necessary but if proximity to a window is not a problem then that is the best entry point and optimum for wall space use in this particular garage.

And loosing access to one side of the panel wont be a deal breaker because I will have access on the side that has a empty 2x4 bay between the panel and the door so I could always go down that bay and go through the 2x4 below the panel and back up through the bottom of the panel if I run out of exits from top of panel.

I understand you can run at least two wires through one hole if it is sleeved??? and hope to do something like that to make most use of out the top openings.

 

[u2slow]

I understand you can run at least two wires through one hole if it is sleeved??? and hope to do something like that to make most use of out the top openings.

Not sure I follow. But this is one way to get two cables through one knockout:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004678G4K/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Another way to have less 'mess' at the panel is to run several circuits in one or two conduits to a large junction box (on or near the ceiling), and then fan out from there. At that junction box, you enter from the back, and the rest of your branch wiring can be concealed.

 

[checkthisout]

I have other options if necessary but if proximity to a window is not a problem then that is the best entry point and optimum for wall space use in this particular garage.

And loosing access to one side of the panel wont be a deal breaker because I will have access on the side that has a empty 2x4 bay between the panel and the door so I could always go down that bay and go through the 2x4 below the panel and back up through the bottom of the panel if I run out of exits from top of panel.

I understand you can run at least two wires through one hole if it is sleeved??? and hope to do something like that to make most use of out the top openings.

You can put two 14 gauge NM cables through the standard strain reliefs or one 12 gauge or one 10 gauge.

You need to look on the rating for the specific make and model of strain relief/retainer for specifics.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

You can put two 14 gauge NM cables through the standard strain reliefs or one 12 gauge or one 10 gauge.

You need to look on the rating for the specific make and model of strain relief/retainer for specifics.

Thanks for that, but where do I find “rating for specific make and model strain relief”? I need to be reading something but I would be chasing my tail big time reading the code book.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Thanks for that, but where do I find “rating for specific make and model strain relief”? I need to be reading something but I would be chasing my tail big time reading the code book.

You'd be chasing you tail quite a bit more with the U/L listing requirements, (which is a harder read) and is where that info is located.

If you can a get your hands on the carton that they came in, it may be listed there

 

[checkthisout]

Thanks for that, but where do I find “rating for specific make and model strain relief”? I need to be reading something but I would be chasing my tail big time reading the code book.

Ha ha. And now you know why electrical is a separate, well-paid trade.

For individual devices like that, the "code" is "refer to manufacturer's instructions.

It might say on the box or bag they came in, on the manufacturers website, store's website in product info or believe it or not, Amazon is a good place to type in the product code and get that type of data.

It would be on the UL listing in the UL book but that is a totally lame way to find it.

Example from Amazon:

"Terminates NM or SE Cables to a 3/4-in knockout
For one 10/3 - 4/2 NM Cable, 0.52-in x 0.61-in by 0.51-in x 0.80-in Oval SE or 0.57-in - 0.69-in Round SE
Also fits multiple two NM Cable configurations"

In the photos for the product the listing is for Two 14-3 through two 10-3 cables.

So you would be good for (2) 14-2 cables.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Thanks now I know not to get carried away running multiple NM through the connector/strain reliefs.

Hoping I can do something with sleeving. Where would that info be.

 

[u2slow]

Sleeves may fall under cable bundling (i.e. x number of cables in contact with each other for more than x distance.) If the sleeve is metallic, it likely needs to be grounded/bonded.

That's how CEC deals with it... not sure about NEC.

 

[checkthisout]

Thanks now I know not to get carried away running multiple NM through the connector/strain reliefs.

Hoping I can do something with sleeving. Where would that info be.

I don't know what sleeves are. I'm just diy who has become familiar with a bit of electrical stuff over the years.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

I don't know what sleeves are. I'm just diy who has become familiar with a bit of electrical stuff over the years.

Pretty much same here. The sleeve I am referring to is a piece of conduit say 3/4” or 1” or larger connected to one of the knockouts at top of panel and goes up through the top plate of the building structure. I was reading somewhere that it is permissible to run multiple nm cables through the sleeve and gain more circuits for a given number of available knockouts.

But I can’t seem to find any information that interprets the code on this, how many of what size and how far for instance. I may have to feed a sub panel somewhere just to gain all the circuits I need.

 

[alfredeneuman]

A sleeve is still subject to the derating ampacity rules for the number of current carrying conductors in a single conduit.
It's a much better idea to run multiple small conduits instead of one big one.

 

[checkthisout]

Pretty much same here. The sleeve I am referring to is a piece of conduit say 3/4” or 1” or larger connected to one of the knockouts at top of panel and goes up through the top plate of the building structure. I was reading somewhere that it is permissible to run multiple nm cables through the sleeve and gain more circuits for a given number of available knockouts.

But I can’t seem to find any information that interprets the code on this, how many of what size and how far for instance. I may have to feed a sub panel somewhere just to gain all the circuits I need.

Oh gotcha. Yeah the info regarding conduit fill in regard to nm cables is going to even harder to find than the info for the nm clamps.

 

[u2slow]

Pretty much same here. The sleeve I am referring to is a piece of conduit say 3/4” or 1” or larger connected to one of the knockouts at top of panel and goes up through the top plate of the building structure.

A 'sleeve' is not connected to any panels or boxes. It's for mechanical protection, or to simplify cable routing between areas (or both).

If its connected to the panel, its a conduit run, and you need a junction box at the other end.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

A 'sleeve' is not connected to any panels or boxes. It's for mechanical protection, or to simplify cable routing between areas (or both).

If its connected to the panel, its a conduit run, and you need a junction box at the other end.

That pretty much settles it. I am going to do a subpanel conveniently located somewhere at other end of garage to minimize length of runs to some planned circuits. for instance RV hook up outside, garage door opener, air compressor etc. all at other end of garage.

But that gets me to thinking that I need to find out what is involved in putting the main panel somewhere else in the garage. There are some other places that are better suited to wire from to provide all the circuits planned.

But I have always assumed that the main feed line coming into a building needs to enter the main panel at the part of the building where the power comes in. There are several obstacles to bringing the power in except where I actually had the conduit placed into the concrete pour.

So the question is, can I run that feed line up from the floor where it comes in, through the top plate then across the attic to a better place for the panel and then go back down through the top plate into the Main panel using suitable conduit and thwn upsized as needed to maintain voltage drop.

In my garage the cost for the additional feed wire would probably be offset by the reduced length of circuit runs.

 

[mike93lx]

You need to have a means of disconnect as close to the service entrance as possible. The code doesn't define a distance, but it is unlikely an inspector would think positively about that kind of run

 

[Raisedonadeere]

You need to have a means of disconnect as close to the service entrance as possible. The code doesn't define a distance, but it is unlikely an inspector would think positively about that kind of run

Thanks. So either a disconnect or another subpanel. At this point I guess adding a subpanel wins since then I will have ability to add circuits from two different locations, which ever is closest, and a disconnect would cost almost as much as a panel.

 

[u2slow]

You need to have a means of disconnect as close to the service entrance as possible. The code doesn't define a distance, but it is unlikely an inspector would think positively about that kind of run

Is this actually a "service entrance"? Or just a garage subfeed off a main panel in the house?

 

[mike93lx]

Is this actually a "service entrance"? Or just a garage subfeed off a main panel in the house?

Not sure,good point.

 

[Raisedonadeere]

Detached garage is a sub feed.