Main feed electrical questions! Pole barn

[deadmanx]

Ok so it's time for electric! We have 400a service to the pole (2x200amp meter base) when we build the house it will have a separate 200amp feed to the house and the barn gets a separate 200amp feed. Anyways, for the barn we are running about 175ft back, and what I've found is I should be using 3/0 copper THHN for my feed from the meter base to the barn electrical panel? The panel in the barn doesn't necessarily matter where I put it, but there will be 1200sqft living space in the back 30x40 space. Would majority of you run the feeder wire further back so my inside runs are shorter? Or would you place the panel more toward the front of the barn for a shorter feed from pole to my electrical panel? I have elected to go with 2-1/2 conduit sch 40 that will be buried, schd 80 that comes out above ground.. let me know what you guys think!

P.s. would you run aluminum feeder line vs copper? For my distance I'm leaning copper.

 

[PCustoms]

Load calc for the barn?

I'd run aluminum

 

[KenC]

I would probably opt for a 2 panel solution. One receiving to power from the meter base and a living area panel fed from it. Saving wire on both the feed and living area at the expense of an additional panel.

And I'd use aluminum, probably 4/0 for the feed as it seems it will be in conduit. Depends on price of course, but aluminum always seems to win, Our local utility uses aluminum for underground pole to house/barn but requires us to provide the 3" PVC, Mine is currently going thru 3 90deg sweeps and pulled OK.

 

[deadmanx]

I would probably opt for a 2 panel solution. One receiving to power from the meter base and a living area panel fed from it. Saving wire on both the feed and living area at the expense of an additional panel.

And I'd use aluminum, probably 4/0 for the feed as it seems it will be in conduit. Depends on price of course, but aluminum always seems to win, Our local utility uses aluminum for underground pole to house/barn but requires us to provide the 3" PVC, Mine is currently going thru 3 90deg sweeps and pulled OK.

Mine will be a pretty straight run from pole to side of barn... Yeah I don't know for sure what the price difference was yet... But it sounds you went larger conduit with aluminum... Sounds like I have some choices to make 🫣

 

[deadmanx]

Load calc for the barn?

I'd run aluminum

Probably no where near the 200a... But it was cheaper for our scenario since a house will come after the barn to just have the 400a meter base installed... So overkill? Probably.

With it like this we don't have to have the barn feed the house, now they can both have dedicated 200a runs. Like I said maybe it was overkill, but oh well

 

[Codyboy]

I ran 4/0 aluminum mobile home feeder 400 ft from the meter main to the shop.
Mine was the same as yours with a 400 (320) amp service. 200a for the house and 200a for the shop.
No issue with voltage drop at that distance.

 

[deadmanx]

I ran 4/0 aluminum mobile home feeder 400 ft from the meter main to the shop.
Mine was the same as yours with a 400 (320) amp service. 200a for the house and 200a for the shop.
No issue with voltage drop at that distance.

Yep that is exactly my setup. What size conduit did you run? Where did you purchase your wire? I'm just looking down all roads now trying to make the right decisions so I'm not doing things twice! Thanks for all the help in advance!

 

[mike93lx]

Running copper would just ve a huge waste in money

 

[deadmanx]

Running copper would just ve a huge waste in money

Is there no real benefit to copper vs aluminum in my scenario?!

 

[PCustoms]

Is there no real benefit to copper vs aluminum in my scenario?!

Nope.

Run 4/0 AL

You could do a load calc, breaker it lower and use smaller wire and smaller conduit to save even more.

Is there a disconnect at the pole?

 

[deadmanx]

Nope.

Run 4/0 AL

You could do a load calc, breaker it lower and use smaller wire and smaller conduit to save even more.

Is there a disconnect at the pole?

Yes the meter base has 2 breakers on it (one for each 200a run)

Will 2.5" conduit be big enough for 4/0 AL ?

 

[Codyboy]

Yep that is exactly my setup. What size conduit did you run? Where did you purchase your wire? I'm just looking down all roads now trying to make the right decisions so I'm not doing things twice! Thanks for all the help in advance!

I ran 2 1/2" sch40.
I only had two 90s where it comes up in the shop and at the main. The run is straight other than a very large radius curve but the conduit itself will bend enough. I used the short 90s where it turns up, but if I were to do it again I'd use the long ones. It pulled fine though.
Used lots of lube while pulling.

I bought my wire at the electrical supply (city electric supply) not sure if you have them where you are. It was around $ 3.90 a foot. Way cheaper than a big box store.
Plus they'll roll it up on a reel and load it for you.
Makes it easy to set it up for pulling with a piece of steel pipe and a couple of saw horses.

 

[PCustoms]

Yes the meter base has 2 breakers on it (one for each 200a run)

Will 2.5" conduit be big enough for 4/0 AL ?

I'd have to run a fill calc, but probably OK

You'll need 4 wires:

4/0
4/0
2/0
4

 

[deadmanx]

I ran 2 1/2" sch40.
I only had two 90s where it comes up in the shop and at the main. The run is straight other than a very large radius curve but the conduit itself will bend enough. I used the short 90s where it turns up, but if I were to do it again I'd use the long ones. It pulled fine though.
Used lots of lube while pulling.

I bought my wire at the electrical supply (city electric supply) not sure if you have them where you are. It was around $ 3.90 a foot. Way cheaper than a big box store.
Plus they'll roll it up on a reel and load it for you.
Makes it easy to set it up for pulling with a piece of steel pipe and a couple of saw horses.

Ty

 

[deadmanx]

I'd have to run a fill calc, but probably OK

You'll need 4 wires:

4/0
4/0
2/0
4

Can It be called out 4/0,4/0,4/0,2/0 ?

If anyone has decent links on where they purchased feel free to drop a link!

 

[deadmanx]

I'd have to run a fill calc, but probably OK

You'll need 4 wires:

4/0
4/0
2/0
4

4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 Aluminum Mobile Home Feeder Cable (per Foot) at Menards® https://www.menards.com/main/electr...t/3692075/p-1444422246168-c-1525874617506.htm

This is already stranded together too... Is this sufficient for underground in conduit? Thanks!


P.s. this seems expensive compared to what some have said... But I'm just wondering if that is something that can be used

 

[NUTTSGT]

I have moved this to the Electrical Section...

 

[deadmanx]

I have moved this to the Electrical Section...

Sorry about that! Thanks for moving it

 

[sparky 1971]

I would put the panel wherever it will make the inside wiring easiest, maybe even two; one in the shop and another in the living part. A little more underground is nothing for a trenchesr or excavator. I would also use aluminum wire. 4/0 will probably be fine but if you're concerned about voltage drop, 250 will be just a little more.

 

[sparky 1971]

4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 Aluminum Mobile Home Feeder Cable (per Foot) at Menards® https://www.menards.com/main/electr...t/3692075/p-1444422246168-c-1525874617506.htm

This is already stranded together too... Is this sufficient for underground in conduit? Thanks!


P.s. this seems expensive compared to what some have said... But I'm just wondering if that is something that can be used

Don't buy that. The 2/0 ground is overkill and you'll need a different lug for it. On top of that, it's a ***** to work with. Get 4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4 MHF. It's available but my copy and paste won't work.

 

[deadmanx]

Don't buy that. The 2/0 ground is overkill and you'll need a different lug for it. On top of that, it's a ***** to work with. Get 4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4 MHF. It's available but my copy and paste won't work.

Ok I'll take a look. My quote for

4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 WAKE FOREST QUADRUPLEX
ALUMINUM CONDUCTOR UNDERGROUND DIRECT
BURIAL 600V URD

Was $876 for 185ft


But I'll look into what you just said... If I don't need 2/0 ground

 

[sparky 1971]

Ok I'll take a look. My quote for

4/0-4/0-4/0-2/0 WAKE FOREST QUADRUPLEX
ALUMINUM CONDUCTOR UNDERGROUND DIRECT
BURIAL 600V URD

Was $876 for 185ft


But I'll look into what you just said... If I don't need 2/0 ground

What you have quoted is URD intended for three phase and unless it's dual rated, isn't supposed to be used inside at all. MHFC is also made with the same conductor sizes, don't get it.

 

[deadmanx]

What you have quoted is URD intended for three phase and unless it's dual rated, isn't supposed to be used inside at all. MHFC is also made with the same conductor sizes, don't get it.

No I'm not! I appreciate the input

 

[sparky 1971]

I googled 4/0 MHFC and the first thing that came up was the right thing at Lowes. My C&P won't work or I'd link it. Wherever it comes from make sure it's 4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4.

 

[Skiff Builder]

https://nassaunationalcable.com/products/4-0-0-4-feeder
4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4 MHF
185'
$821.40

 

[deadmanx]

https://nassaunationalcable.com/products/4-0-0-4-feeder
4/0, 4/0, 2/0, 4 MHF
185'
$821.40

Thank you!

 

[mm08822]

I agree on the reduced size neutral and ground conductors.
If this will be in conduit the entire length, then forget mhf and buy 4 seperate coils of XHHW AL. No need to fight with a bundled cable when 4 separate conductors can be managed.

DOUBLE CHECK the length once the trench is in. Buy extra length.

 

[Norcal]

As long as the load is 180A or less 4/0 AL is just fine, URD is against code because the aluminum alloy is different the what is speced by the NEC.

 

[mm08822]

As long as the load is 180A or less 4/0 AL is just fine, URD is against code because the aluminum alloy is different the what is speced by the NEC.

The 4/0 wire size for 200A residential service is only for residential. Since the barn is combined usage, the residential exception for 4/0 AL conductors doesn't apply.

However, what @Norcal is discussing, is the ability to upsize the OCP to the next standard size cb as long as the calculated load doesn't exceed the conductor ampacity (180a in this case).
So without a load calc to demonstrate load is below 180A, you would really need to be using 250MCM (at least in my neck of the woods) to be able to use the 200a cb. YMMV with your local sheriff.

 

[sparky 1971]

The 4/0 wire size for 200A residential service is only for residential. Since the barn is combined usage, the residential exception for 4/0 AL conductors doesn't apply.

However, what @Norcal is discussing, is the ability to upsize the OCP to the next standard size cb as long as the calculated load doesn't exceed the conductor ampacity (180a in this case).
So without a load calc to demonstrate load is below 180A, you would really need to be using 250MCM (at least in my neck of the woods) to be able to use the 200a cb. YMMV with your local sheriff.

Your inspectors are too ****. Our guys would call it a house with an attached garage and not say anything about it. Barndominiums have become the big thing in the Midwest lately.

 

[mm08822]

Your inspectors are too ****. Our guys would call it a house with an attached garage and not say anything about it. Barndominiums have become the big thing in the Midwest lately.

Yeah, agreed. Could easily depend on the angle of the sun that day, too.

The latest I heard is that the inspectors are worried about the state random auditing permit applications and the submitted docs included with the apps.

 

[deadmanx]

I love my township I will run it by a few guys I know but I appreciate all the input from you guys!

 

[deadmanx]

 

[deadmanx]

This is the meter..I've been reading, should i upsize wire or is everyone convinced the 4/0 is fine?

 

[sparky 1971]

This is the meter..I've been reading, should i upsize wire or is everyone convinced the 4/0 is fine?

I am and have been convinced 4/0 will work, especially since it has living quarters and the main house isn't built yet. If it fits the definition of a dwelling, it's a dwelling.

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

If you have a place to sleep, sit back and watch TV or read a book, cook, take a shower and a dump, it's a dwelling so 4/0 should be fine.

 

[deadmanx]

I am and have been convinced 4/0 will work, especially since it has living quarters and the main house isn't built yet. If it fits the definition of a dwelling, it's a dwelling.

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

If you have a place to sleep, sit back and watch TV or read a book, cook, take a shower and a dump, it's a dwelling so 4/0 should be fine.

I have some options it seems. Anyone run 250mcm in 2-1/2 conduit? No issues?

Aluminum feeder for 200a panel in the barn/ dwelling**

250/250/ 3/0 / #2 XHHW-2 --- 2-1/2 conduit any issues?

4/0 4/0 2/0 / #4 XHHW-2 --- 2-1/2 conduit fit easy.

The price difference seems miniscule so I will decide wire size last.

 

[KenC]

I have some options it seems. Anyone run 250mcm in 2-1/2 conduit? No issues?

Aluminum feeder for 200a panel in the barn/ dwelling**

250/250/ 3/0 / #2 XHHW-2 --- 2-1/2 conduit any issues?

4/0 4/0 2/0 / #4 XHHW-2 --- 2-1/2 conduit fit easy.

The price difference seems miniscule so I will decide wire size last.

My local city utility requires 3"for any new residential service. Customer supplies conduit, utility provides wire and will not pull into smaller.

4/0 aluminum doesn't bend so easy through 90s, and each underground has at least 2 of them, mine has 3.

 

[deadmanx]

My local city utility requires 3"for any new residential service. Customer supplies conduit, utility provides wire and will not pull into smaller.

4/0 aluminum doesn't bend so easy through 90s, and each underground has at least 2 of them, mine has 3.

I'm using 2-1/2" and the township isn't very involved in what you do out here lol. Thanks though, appreciate the input!

 

[Norcal]

Any place that follows EUSERC standards will require 3" for 100A & 200A UG services, PG&E does require it, the NEC does not.

 

[mm08822]

OP already has a 400A metermain at a pole he is connecting feeders to. These feeders are not service entrance conductors.
So none of this conduit size discussion is under POCO requirements. It is under NEC requirements.