Main Panel missing Ground Wire?

[TractorJeff]

Sunday morning I was hooking up the new Dryer that we purchased the day before.
As I checked the wire to be sure it was 10-3 not 10-2, I thought how lucky I was that all I need to update is the outlet (3 prong to 4 prong).
After that I opened the cover on the Main Panel to check White is Neutral and Ground is Ground. I got to studying the Main Panel and noticed that I can not see a Ground cable that would lead to Water pipes or outside to a Ground rod?
I asked my buddy at work, his opinion which was maybe back in the 1975/1980 era it was acceptable to use the conduit to the meter box with the conduit buried in the earth (we have buried incoming lines) as the earth ground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Electrical Conduit, with circuit or service conductors in it, as an electrode, would never have been acceptable.

Is it possible that the GEC for your electrode is terminated in the meter pan?

 

[dcg9381]

Your buddy might be right. Take a photo of the inside of your panel and post it.
It's possible that you're just missing it (maybe) and it may not look like a traditional non-insulated ground wire. It (hopefully) is grounded at the service entrance. But it might be just flat wrong too..

 

[TractorJeff]

I was wondering if it is grounded at the meter pan also?
Just wasn't sure if that would be an acceptable practice?
Only reason I am wondering about the conduit as conductor is that I stared at the 2 hots and slightly smaller neutral to be sure I didn't see a 4th wire going through the conduit.
I suppose it could be an insulated wire but can't really think of ever seeing a stake outside or a wire going down to the earth.
I'll look around some more tonight.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was wondering if it is grounded at the meter pan also?
Just wasn't sure if that would be an acceptable practice?

Its possible the meter pan has the GEC from the electrode. Some PoCos allow bonding at the meter pan.

Only reason I am wondering about the conduit as conductor is that I stared at the 2 hots and slightly smaller neutral to be sure I didn't see a 4th wire going through the conduit.

There definitely WOULDNT be 4-wires coming from the meter pan.

I suppose it could be an insulated wire but can't really think of ever seeing a stake outside or a wire going down to the earth.
I'll look around some more tonight.

The ground rod should be pounded flush so you may not see it as it could be buried. You should see a larger solid copper wire going to the neutral bar or into the bottom of the meter pan

 

[TractorJeff]

Ground must be in the Meter Pan!
I took the Main Panel cover off again to study the Neutral/Ground Bar.
One #4 Neutral for the 60 amp to the detached garage.
A #6 Neutral to the welder outlet in the Storage room which was apparently his old Shop?
A #4(6?) for the Kitchen Stove
No other large wires insulated or not.
Went outside to find a 1/2" conduit going down into the earth from the Meter Pan which apparently would house the ground wire. Over the years the ground has built up so I "assume" the rod/rods are now buried.
Solves the mystery?

 

[Falcon67]

Maybe. I know of two houses in this neighborhood that were built and signed off without any UFER or ground rods either in the main panel nor in the meter pan. We own one of them, and the issue was corrected before move in. House was like that for at least 10 years before we got here.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Electrical Conduit as an electrode would never have been acceptable.

It still is:

NEC 250.52
(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2.44 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials.
(a) Grounding electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size 3⁄4) and, where of steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.

 

[TractorJeff]

It still is:

NEC 250.52
(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2.44 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials.
(a) Grounding electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size 3⁄4) and, where of steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.

So far all I have said is the 1/2" conduit probably houses the ground wire that was terminated in the Meter Pan. So much dirt has ended up in that area that I can not see the end of the conduit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It still is:

NEC 250.52
(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2.44 m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials.
(a) Grounding electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size 3⁄4) and, where of steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.

i shouldve been more clear.

I meant conduit with circuit or service conductors in it as the buddy suggested.

Sure empty pipe would be a different story.

 

[alfredeneuman]

i shouldve been more clear.
I meant conduit with circuit or service conductors in it as the buddy suggested.
.

The Code says nothing about circuit or service conductors being inside of the conduit, and would specifically prohibit it if that were true.
1/2" would be prohibited because the minimum acceptable size is 3/4 though.

 

[Marctrees]

So take a little garden hand trowel and dig down.

Pretty sure you will find wire protected by the pipe...

Assuming the pipe is tight against the pole...

And not out a bit in the field.

Marc

 

[TractorJeff]

UPDATE!
WE Energies is putting buried lines and pad transformers on every ones house. Yesterday the guy stopped to say what day is the planned outage for the change over. I mentioned about the Ground issue. He opened the Meter pan on the house for me. Sure enough the Ground wire comes up the 1/2" Conduit to terminate in the Meter pan! This means my Panel is grounded through the Conduit. He said this is quite common to find on old installs.

 

[Bert_]

I'm still wondering why you changed the outlet just because you got a new dryer? 3 wire cords are still sold for a reason. There is no requirement to change it if you're not moving the outlet.

 

[TractorJeff]

I'm still wondering why you changed the outlet just because you got a new dryer? 3 wire cords are still sold for a reason. There is no requirement to change it if you're not moving the outlet.

Same Reason they put 4 wire cords on Electric Ranges.
Too much "Computer/Electronics" in appliances now.

 

[Bert_]

Same Reason they put 4 wire cords on Electric Ranges.
Too much "Computer/Electronics" in appliances now.

No. You put on the cord that matches your receptacle. Even on a brand new range or dryer. They are all designed to use a 3 or 4 wire circuit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Same Reason they put 4 wire cords on Electric Ranges.
Too much "Computer/Electronics" in appliances now.

That makes no sense

Te computers and electronics will function just fine with a 3-wire outlet where the NEUTRAL is being utilized as the grounding path...

 

[ahab]

In a 3 wire 240 volt are there?

• + 120
• - 120
• ground
• no neutral

and in 4 wire:

• +120
• -120
• ground
• neutral

 

[PelicanPines]

No. You put on the cord that matches your receptacle. Even on a brand new range or dryer. They are all designed to use a 3 or 4 wire circuit.

Uhm... You put in the receptacle that matches the CORD that was originally attached to your appliance. Pines SR was an electrician... it's what he taught me.

Are you an electrician? Did they change the teachings?

 

[Bert_]

Uhm... You put in the receptacle that matches the CORD that was originally attached to your appliance. Pines SR was an electrician... it's what he taught me.

Ranges and dryers do not come with a cord. It is sold separate so you can match it to your receptacle.

They have a bond wire that needs to be removed for 4 wire installs or left in for 3 wire installs.

Many times the store will install a cord for you but the factory does not.

Are you an electrician? Did they change the teachings?

My license says "master a" but what do I know?

The only thing they changed was requiring 4 wire in new installs. That happened in the 90's. It does NOT mean that a 3 wire recept installed before then needs to be changed. You can keep on using it with new appliances.

 

[TractorJeff]

New Dryer didn't come with a Cord.
Manufacturer recommended a 4 wire cord and receptacle.
So I did as Manufacturer intended it to be based on their design.
I "assume" to keep the Neutral and Ground separated?
Not bonded together like it would be on a 3 wire cord?

 

[Bert_]

In a 3 wire 240 volt are there?

• + 120
• - 120
• ground
• no neutral

and in 4 wire:

• +120
• -120
• ground
• neutral

In 3 wire stove and dryer circuits there is two hots and a neutral. The frame of the appliance was allowed to be bonded to the neutral. You can still do this with a new appliance on an existing circuit.

 

[Bert_]

New Dryer didn't come with a Cord.
Manufacturer recommended a 4 wire cord and receptacle.
So I did as Manufacturer intended it to be based on their design.
I "assume" to keep the Neutral and Ground separated?
Not bonded together like it would be on a 3 wire cord?

Recommended not required. It is designed to operate off either. Sort of like if you asked the dealership if they recommend you buy a new car or a used one.

Running a new circuit was not a bad thing. Just seems like there is a lot of misinformation that makes it sound required.

 

[InsanePyro]

Uhm... You put in the receptacle that matches the CORD that was originally attached to your appliance. Pines SR was an electrician... it's what he taught me.

Are you an electrician? Did they change the teachings?

I have bought multiple appliances in the past few years and none of them came with cords

 

[TractorJeff]

My original post question was the issue of no Ground Rods connected directly to the Panel. It is Grounded to Earth thru a piece of Conduit to the Meter Socket Box which has a Ground Wire to Earth. My basic question was and is; Should I drill a hole thru the wall and bury to more Ground Rods outside of the House? Plus run a Bonding Wire to the Water Pipe that runs to my Water well?

 

[Showkey]

These ground threads are almost as good as oil threads.

 

[Bert_]

My original post question was the issue of no Ground Rods connected directly to the Panel. It is Grounded to Earth thru a piece of Conduit to the Meter Socket Box which has a Ground Wire to Earth. My basic question was and is; Should I drill a hole thru the wall and bury to more Ground Rods outside of the House? Plus run a Bonding Wire to the Water Pipe that runs to my Water well?

It's not the conduit. Connecting the grounding electrode conductor in the meter box is fine by code even with plastic conduit.

The neutral wire is what does the job. The panel still needs the bonding screw installed.

 

[PelicanPines]

I have bought multiple appliances in the past few years and none of them came with cords

And none of them, had in their install instructions, a single or selection of plugs to use... or a wiring diagram... if a wiring diagram to connect power is included... it would be pretty clear if it was a 3 wire or 4 wire install. It's not left to chance... or random choices...

Pines SR also taught me to read the instructions.

 

[TractorJeff]

It's not the conduit. Connecting the grounding electrode conductor in the meter box is fine by code even with plastic conduit.

The neutral wire is what does the job. The panel still needs the bonding screw installed.

Then why are 2 ground rods always required at the first Disconnect (ie: Main Breaker)?

 

[Bert_]

Then why are 2 ground rods always required at the first Disconnect (ie: Main Breaker)?

It doesn't necessarily have to be the the main disconnect. Terminating it in the meter can is acceptable also as in the OP's case

 

[AntonLargiader]

I don't understand the huge resistance to updating the connection to the current spec if it's not absolutely required. Threads about subpanels extoll the virtues of separating grounds and neutrals but the OP gets the Spanish Inquisition about doing it voluntarily in his own home?

I rewired my stuff like that some time back, because I wanted to. Fire away.

 

[Bert_]

I don't understand the huge resistance to updating the connection to the current spec if it's not absolutely required. Threads about subpanels extoll the virtues of separating grounds and neutrals but the OP gets the Spanish Inquisition about doing it voluntarily in his own home?

I rewired my stuff like that some time back, because I wanted to. Fire away.

Nobody says you shouldn't do it. The beginning of the thread made it sound required with a new appliance, which it isn't.

 

[TractorJeff]

No, I said that I was in there studying the Panel when I realized I didn't see an Earth Ground connection.
Everyone speed read the Post and "ASSUMED" it was a concern due to the New appliance.
So the REAL question remains: Should I update the grounds or NOT?

 

[Bert_]

No, I said that I was in there studying the Panel when I realized I didn't see an Earth Ground connection.
Everyone speed read the Post and "ASSUMED" it was a concern due to the New appliance.
So the REAL question remains: Should I update the grounds or NOT?

We decided the grounding electrode was connected in the meter box right?

Terminating in the meter box is fine. It just isn't allowed by some utility companies for new installs, so it's not common anymore.

 

[sberry]

While we are here, I change them when I have a chance. I find them wired from appliance stores wrong on more than one occasion. One recently,, wrong and dont even bother to install the cable clamp.