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Major tile issues on newish home

Old tool guy

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The coefficient of thermal expansion with porcelain tile is 8.0 to 9.0 x10 −6
Ok, that’s half the answer. If the temperature in the house changes from 40* F to 100* F (which is a huge change and probably not realistic) how many inches will the tile actually grow?
 
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rockcrawler

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A life lesson every man learns, hopefully before he’s 30.
If you want it done right, learn how to do it & do it yourself. Exponentially easier now w/ the internet..
You’ll be satisfied w/ the results & will have pocketed the labor cost which can be invested.
Continue until you physically no longer can. Otherwise you’ll end up pissed off at the world & the scumbag rip off artists.
Once you’re aged out, best you can hope for is referrals from friends.

This is why I do all my automotive work myself.
 
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rockcrawler

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If/when all of this tile has to be removed and replaced, how do I go about vetting tile guys to find one that actually knows what the hell they are doing? Everyone says they are an expert and is the best in the business.
 

K13

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Ok, that’s half the answer. If the temperature in the house changes from 40* F to 100* F (which is a huge change and probably not realistic) how many inches will the tile actually grow?
According to online calculators a 36" tile, like the OP has, would grow .01728" in length with a 60F change in Temp.
 

Firebrick43

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Ok, that’s half the answer. If the temperature in the house changes from 40* F to 100* F (which is a huge change and probably not realistic) how many inches will the tile actually grow

Each 36” tile would grow 0.009” to 0.011” of an inch.

The same 36” section of concrete under the tile would grow 0.012” to 0.017”

So a 15’ room the tile will grow 0.045” to 0.055” but the concrete slab will grow 0.060” to .085” so the gap at the walls should actually grow.

If the tile was on OSB subfloor it would grow only 0.004” for every 3 feet or 0.020” over a 15’ room which is why a gap is suggested.

Note. The gap will not increase by 1/2 the difference from the expansion of the tile to the subfloor or slabs. The grout and thinset will absorb some of it.

This is assuming I did my math correctly
 

duneslider

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Yes but … please post the actual COE and convert that to real life numbers.
It doesn't matter what the numbers are, the fact is it happens. Tile tenting isn't some mystical unicorn that is just theory talked about in books. Just do a search for tile tenting and there are thousands of examples and it is all due to the lack of movement joints in tile.

Poor install can certainly contribute to the issue and a better install is probably going to hold out longer but the fact is if you don't account for movement it's gonna bite you. Concrete shrinks, tile doesn't. If the concrete is shrinking that puts the tile in compression. Tile doesn't compress much and it doesn't take a whole lot before something gives. I have never seen tenting happen on wood subfloors, only directly applied to concrete. There is probably a number of reasons for that but all the tenting I have seen was over concrete. When I was doing flooring professionally I stopped installing directly to concrete due to a number of issues/concerns.

I still haven't seen any pictures of the OP's house, or the areas of concern. Larger areas are much more susceptible to issues and needing movement joints. The number of windows and direct sunlight also changes the need. They are called out and explained in the TCNA handbook as well as ANSI standards. Now, is the whole issue because it is tight to the baseboards, probably not. There is probably a whole list of issues going on.

I also subscribe to the whole do it yourself if you want it done right mentality. It seems like most of the time when I let someone else do something it ends up in disappointment but unfortunately I don't always have the knowledge, skill, equipment, time to do it all.

If I were hiring a tile contractor I would want to know what his process would be. For me, over concrete I would use Ditra or Stratamat. Those are just the ones I settled on because I believe in the manufacturers, they are easy to get, and I like using them. Ditra is under ALL my tile in my own house. I also don't know the size of area we are talking but very likely 1 or more soft joints are needed. Everyone hates soft joints, me included and I have on occasion taken some chances and lucked out so far. It is harder to do soft joints in the plank flooring like the OP has but you can do it and they don't have to be a straight line. You can do some careful planning. I also do always burn the thinset into the back of the tile and the substrate. You also have to use the right trowels to get proper coverage. Lots of guys can do a great job on the install if they get some instruction on how to do it right. The problem is a lot don't know what they don't know and are just doing it how they always have done it. I would rather find a guy who didn't do it right but did "good" work and was willing to listen and take direction and wasn't hard headed and unwilling to do what was asked of him.
 
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nh_yota

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I have never seen grout cracking in a properly installed tile floor.

I don't see how the tile can expand and contract at a different rate than the concrete if they're adhered together. Maybe if the tile was on a floating substrate...
 

mike93lx

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I have never seen grout cracking in a properly installed tile floor.

I don't see how the tile can expand and contract at a different rate than the concrete if they're adhered together. Maybe if the tile was on a floating substrate...
The problem is that they want to concract at different rates and the bond isn't strong enough to overcome it, so it cracks
 

mepstein

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I was a 20 something year old kid with no experience, installing tiles in my first house that I now use for a rental property. I read the directions (no internet in the late 80’s) and put tile down in a bunch of rooms in the house. I do remember back buttering every tile, even the ones on the walls. It’s been over 30 years and the tile is in decent shape. Over the years, had guys come in to clean it up and touch up grout but except for some chips in the tile, it’s all pretty sound. If I can do it without any training, anyone can. I don’t do it for myself anymore. It’s too much work but I’m still planning on doing porcelain in my workshop. I’ll probably do it myself for that job and just take my time over a couple weeks. I’ll probably con my son and father into helping me.

Just believe me about not hiring anyone who does new construction. That job gets bidded out for cheap and fast. Skill level doesn’t matter. At least in my experience as a real estate agent and selling new construction.
 
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rockcrawler

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Just believe me about not hiring anyone who does new construction. That job gets bidded out for cheap and fast. Skill level doesn’t matter. At least in my experience as a real estate agent and selling new construction.

No doubt. This was definitely the norm during our build.
 

Old tool guy

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It doesn't matter what the numbers are, the fact is it happens.
It does matter. PVC trim or vinyl siding on the outside of a house expands and contracts a lot. Wood shrinks and swell with moisture, a lot. Comparatively, a tile expanding 0.009” is nothing.
 

Hank11

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You should run this by a lawyer who does this kind of work. There are statutes of limitation and of repose that may affect your ability to recover either way. A good lawyer can probably educate you on Texas construction law pretty quick. This sounds like a pretty pure defective construction issue and not too hard to prove with a good expert. One problem is the cost of recovery - for smaller claims it may not make economic sense to fight. That the sub has no money does not matter, its the contractor you want. If nothing else file a complaint with the State contractor licensing board.

For any new house buyer, I strongly suggest reading and understanding the contract. And if you can’t figure it out ask for help before you sign.
 
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