Make Up Water Tank for Hydronic Heat System

[Skiff Builder]

Here is the existing setup:
Wall hung Baxi Luna 3 combination boiler/water heater. Single zone baseboard with propylene glycol, heats an 1100 sq ft weekend home using nat gas. Heat loop volume is just about 5 gallons.

Water supply is currently left on when away, due to the running boiler, which is set for 60 deg. I want to shutoff the water supply as I feel we're pushing our luck.....

Would adding a make up water tank allow me to cut water supply yet still run boiler? One model I've looked at has a 6 gallon capacity,pump, alarm capability,etc.

http://https://www.supplyhouse.com/Axiom-MF200-MF200-PRESSURE-PAL-Hydronic-Mini-System-Feeder-6-Gallon?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjff9-66h2QIVAYzICh2vfArREAQYASABEgLhnPD_BwE


Thanks,
Skiff Builder

 

[Kaizen]

Are you losing fluid now? If not and system is bled right with pressure tank I wouldn’t think more would be needed. If anything I’d put a low pressure cut off so it would shut down if an issue. Not sure if they make one that could notify you of a problem


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[Skiff Builder]

The system is tight and running well. Built in expansion tank and low water cutoff. I’m never there long enough to see if I’d get any pressure drop over the long term if the supply water was shut off.
Main concern is a failure that would pump city water in for days. Running it off a make up tank would only allow 11 gallons total to leak if a fail occurred.

 

[Bondo]

I’m never there long enough to see if I’d get any pressure drop over the long term if the supply water was shut off.

Ayuh,.... So what makes you "Think" it's usin' make-up water,..??

Do you have a check-valve just before the auto-fill valve,..??
If not, ya need one if the make-up water pressure drops, the antifreeze from yer boiler will back-feed into the domestic water plumbin',....

 

[59 wagon man]

if it leaks when sitting then it definitely leaks when running so you would have other issues. it should be a sealed system

 

[Skiff Builder]

Ayuh,.... So what makes you "Think" it's usin' make-up water,..??

Do you have a check-valve just before the auto-fill valve,..??
If not, ya need one if the make-up water pressure drops, the antifreeze from yer boiler will back-feed into the domestic water plumbin',....

Bondo,
There is nothing that makes me think the system is using any make up water.
Yes, there is a check valve installed.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this:
Is it all right to run a hydronic heat system with no available make up supply when you may not be on location for up to a month in the heating season?

Want to do what I can to keep system running and in event of a fail, keep water damage to a minimum.

Cold up your way, what type heating system you running?

I've run by your location a number of times crossing lake Ontario- running boats up to Clayton from NJ. Nice area.

Skiff

 

[75gmck25]

When we leave the house for anything more than overnight I shut off the house water supply and put the water heater on pilot, so I also lose the make-up water connection to the boiler. Residual line pressure would a put small amount of water into the system, but not enough to handle a real leak. I assume the boiler would overheat and shut down if it does not have water, but I don't know for sure.

Since I had concerns about the house when we are gone for 2-3 weeks, I recently bought a Samsung Smarthome Hub kit with a water/temp sensor and door/temp sensor for $115. It was the cheapest solution I could find to monitor for water leaks and HVAC failure. I can access the monitor from an app on my phone.

I have the water/temp sensor next to my boiler and water heater so that it would detect a water leak, and also give me the temp in the utility room. I have the temp sensor next to my thermostat on the 1st floor so I can tell if the house is staying at the set temp. It gives me peace of mind to know the HVAC is still working, and I haven't had a water heater or boiler leak failure. If I do have one of those problems, I have to call my neighbor with a key to go in and find out what happened.

I also have a Honeywell alarm system with automation options, but found it cheaper and simpler to get the Samsung Smarthub for simple monitoring. I will probably add another water sensor to put on the floor next to my sump pump, which is another possible failure while we are gone.

Bruce

 

[Skiff Builder]

Bruce,
Sounds like a nice setup for the price. One day I will have internet connectivity and may go in this direction. I wonder if they offer a sensor for water flow. That way if you sprung a leak at the furthest point away from the boiler you would still get immediate notice. Guess that would only matter if you left supply on.

There is a device called the Water Hero that monitors flow and capable of shutting off the main supply valve to the home. Also looks as if it can be operated remotely.
Starts around $650.00

http://https://checkout.waterheroinc.com/products/water-hero-p-100-leak-detection-automatic-shut-off-system

 

[yeldogt]

The first thing you need to do is make sure the system is not using water ... if it is .. that needs to be fixed. My systems can sit for years and not drop.

two schools of thought on boiler make up ... some say have the make up control ... others say have a a low water cut off and a simple valve to add water. I was originally in the former camp and have moved to the latter ... why .. my experience is the make up valve is always the first thing to go and stops woking anyway. The back flows can be a problem as well.

I have always had two vacation places -- one at the beach and the other out in what we call the country. If I'm going to be gone for over a month I shut the laundry off .. otherwise it's all on. Over the years it's always people turning down the heat in an understandable attempt to save some $$ that causes the problem.

I'm building a new place and was thinking about one of the whole house controls .. maybe an option for you.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Ayuh,.... So what makes you "Think" it's usin' make-up water,..??

Do you have a check-valve just before the auto-fill valve,..??
If not, ya need one if the make-up water pressure drops, the antifreeze from yer boiler will back-feed into the domestic water plumbin',....

A check valve and a back flow preventer are required by code on any boiler, regardless of whether glycol is used.

Tommy

 

[Kaizen]

I would not plumb in the make up water. And I’d shut off the rest of the water when I left even if for just a week. For longer periods in winter I’d open the drain and put some antifreeze in the toilets in case the heat fails. A little bit of a bother but probably less then the make up tank. Guess this is why I don’t have a weekend place. I’d never pay to heat it all winter if I wasn’t there.


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[bobbyjean]

you could install a solenoid valve with a wet switch to close it ...i have used this one before...https://www.diversitech.com/item/id/10469

 

[75gmck25]

I've been looking for home monitoring/automation that is not overly expensive or complicated, and it seems like the industry is still struggling with standards and interoperability. Most companies still prefer to sell you a total solution that includes only their products, although they are slowly adding in 3rd party products.

This is one device I found for shutting off water, which could be combined with a water sensor and a control hub to shut off water if there is a leak detected. It uses the Z-wave protocol, which has been around for quite a while.
https://www.smarthome.com/dome-dmwv...NOjb17hKRdHhlrEs1pl395JDJEP6r2LwaAuYlEALw_wcB

I also remember running across a leak detector for water heaters that was designed to shut off both water and gas to the heater if a leak was detected. However, instead of being automated it was self-contained.

Bruce

 

[raspy]

My radiant floor heat and my solar system have never been connected to the house water supply system. They are both designed to be closed loop with no makeup water connection and start out at atmospheric pressure when cold. Neither one uses a diaphragm expansion tank.

This is a good plan where you might be away a lot or where there is freezing weather, or where you have a drain-back solar.

A standard hydronic system with a normal expansion tank and air vent, will slowly drop in pressure over the long run. But it's easily allowed for by simply making sure it's topped off once in a a while. There can be extremely slow leaks at pump flanges, valve packings, unions and the top of air vents. If the diaphragm expansion tank loses pressure, the system pressure can go down and trip the low pressure cutoff in the boiler.

 

[Jackfre]

I think your concern is electrical supply and temperature notification. If you keep the power going to the system you should be ok. The make-up water tank is to my mind not a good option. As others have pointed out, if the system is tight then there is no need for the make-up water. If it isn't then make it so. I have a Hoenywell stat that I can operate the temp remotely. As well I can see what the building temp is. There is no low temp alarm. I think the first thing you should do is look at the building drain and see that it operates properly and shut off the water when you leave for those extended periods. That way, you prevent building damage in the worst situation. Do you have a "go-to" heating contractor lined up for emergency calls there?

 

[Skiff Builder]

I would not plumb in the make up water. And I’d shut off the rest of the water when I left even if for just a week. For longer periods in winter I’d open the drain and put some antifreeze in the toilets in case the heat fails. A little bit of a bother but probably less then the make up tank. Guess this is why I don’t have a weekend place. I’d never pay to heat it all winter if I wasn’t there.


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Kaizen,
Heating a place that you may only occupy 8 out of 30 days was something I had to think about too, when we got the place.Never say never. Heat and DHW last season from 1OCT2016- 1MAY2017 cost me $201.60 in natural gas. We keep it at 60 unoccupied and 70 occupied. Also run a 30000 btu nat gas garage heater when working in garage. I can live with that cost - eat in at home 4 times a season rather than dining out pays for the heat.
Thks, Skiff

 

[Skiff Builder]

I think your concern is electrical supply and temperature notification. If you keep the power going to the system you should be ok. The make-up water tank is to my mind not a good option. As others have pointed out, if the system is tight then there is no need for the make-up water. If it isn't then make it so. I have a Hoenywell stat that I can operate the temp remotely. As well I can see what the building temp is. There is no low temp alarm. I think the first thing you should do is look at the building drain and see that it operates properly and shut off the water when you leave for those extended periods. That way, you prevent building damage in the worst situation. Do you have a "go-to" heating contractor lined up for emergency calls there?

Jackfre,
Sounds like the way I should go. All is tight with the system as far as I can tell. Maybe I can get the wife to spend a full week and weekend there. I could shut off system supply and have her monitor pressure, get a baseline.
Guess I'll have to breakdown and pay for internet . I go there to get away from TV/ Computers /Phones/Noise

I am my own “contractor” for all. 130 miles away. Do have trusted neighbors. Got a mini split system inverter in Home for backup. Also a gas tap I can hook a non venting 30k blue flame up to ina power failure.
Thks, Skiff

 

[yeldogt]

Reading through the thread -- what's your worry .... the house or the system?

I have never used glycol -- The key with a weekend house it to be careful about dropping the heat.

My first place was at the Jersey shore -- my old time neighbor gave me the run down on what to do and ... want not to do. A simple free plug that would turn a light on if the temp went into the 40's was the standard protection for years.

 

[Kaizen]

Kaizen,

Heating a place that you may only occupy 8 out of 30 days was something I had to think about too, when we got the place.Never say never. Heat and DHW last season from 1OCT2016- 1MAY2017 cost me $201.60 in natural gas. We keep it at 60 unoccupied and 70 occupied. Also run a 30000 btu nat gas garage heater when working in garage. I can live with that cost - eat in at home 4 times a season rather than dining out pays for the heat.

Thks, Skiff

Christ that’s only 3 weeks of oil for my house. Agreed that’s awesome


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[Skiff Builder]

Reading through the thread -- what's your worry .... the house or the system?

I have never used glycol -- The key with a weekend house it to be careful about dropping the heat.

My first place was at the Jersey shore -- my old time neighbor gave me the run down on what to do and ... want not to do. A simple free plug that would turn a light on if the temp went into the 40's was the standard protection for years.

Flooding the house is the main,system is secondary concern.Wife is a bath designer at a plumbing and heating supp house-if a toilet were to freeze/crack no big deal.She's always bringing fixtures home for in house testing and keeping me proficient on installs ....( no more Grohe for us)

The new problem were seeing here is condensing furnaces and boilers shutting down due to condensate freezing.Seen some really crappy installs in this regard. Lots of raised houses with open parking underneath vulnerable. Couple vacation homes in area damaged due to this.Most got it straightened out by now.

Was the thermostatic light fixture a source of heat or a visual indicator of cold temp, that a full time neighbor could alert you to? Plenty of guys still use that in the bilge of their boat over the winter as a compartment heater.

Skiff

 

[Bondo]

Bondo,
There is nothing that makes me think the system is using any make up water.
Yes, there is a check valve installed.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this:
Is it all right to run a hydronic heat system with no available make up supply when you may not be on location for up to a month in the heating season?

Want to do what I can to keep system running and in event of a fail, keep water damage to a minimum.

Cold up your way, what type heating system you running?

I've run by your location a number of times crossing lake Ontario- running boats up to Clayton from NJ. Nice area.

Skiff

Ayuh,.... If yer heatin' system is sealed, as it should be,....
It'll run, all by itself, Forever, or til there's a leak,....

If yer a Creative Engineer, such as myself, My 1st thought of a safety system to back up yer lack of available refill antifreeze,....
You could build a tank, of whatever size ya believe to be necessary, with a screw(tight air seal) on cap on the top, with a schrader valve on the cap or tank,....
From the bottom of the tank, a hose or line to the pressure regulator/ make-up water valve of the boiler system,....
Fill the tank with antifreeze, 'bout 1/2 to 3/4ers full(leavin' head-space for the air pressure),...
Screw the cap on, tight, 'n pressurize the tank with air, say 60 or 80 psi,.....
If there was a leak, the reserve antifreeze would be pushed into the system to the set value, til the antifreeze ran out, or the air pressure equalized with the system,.....

As far as an Alarm, if it monitors the pressure of the boiler, that's All ya need,....
Flow is irrelevant,....
If the system is set-up for a 12 psi minimum, a sensor for any value below the 12 psi, will tell ya, ya got a leak,.....

Ayuh,... It does get pretty damn Cold up here,....
Already seen -35*/ -40* this year,...
I'm sittin' here in my river house rental, that I designed, 'n built the in-floor radiant heatin' system for,...
Bein' it's always been a rental til now, is Why it's antifreeze filled, rather than water,...
Startin' this year, We're livin' in this house for the winter, 'n will move next door for the summer, rentin' this house,...
Previously, for winters, I had a company house with baseboard hot water heat, which I designed, 'n built an outdoor wood boiler, which I tied directly into the house's hydronic heatin' system,....
Burnt free wood for over 10 years, I got from a local arborist I barter with,...
Frank was pretty upset I quit heatin' with wood, as the value of Me bein' a phone call away, I guess, means an awful lot to 'im,....
For now, I've got a Harley Sportster sittin' in his garage, that is mine to use whenever I want, so long as I answer the phone, whenever Frank calls,....
Drawback to that is,... If it's nice enough to go bikin', I'd rather be out Boatin',...
Which is the same reason I don't own a Harley of my own,...

Anyways,......
I'm right here at the head end of Chaumont Bay, 100 yards up-stream of the state bridge over the Chaumont River, in the village of Chaumont,....
If yer ever up this way, with some extra time to kill,....
I've got dockage, so long as ya can clear the bridge which is Usually, 'bout 13'6" above the water,.....
Yerself, or any other friends are Welcome to stop by, 'n chat for awhile,....
Tie up over night if ya wish,.....
Just look for the 34' Nauti-line houseboat moored out front,.......

 

[yeldogt]

Flooding the house is the main,system is secondary concern.Wife is a bath designer at a plumbing and heating supp house-if a toilet were to freeze/crack no big deal.She's always bringing fixtures home for in house testing and keeping me proficient on installs ....( no more Grohe for us)

The new problem were seeing here is condensing furnaces and boilers shutting down due to condensate freezing.Seen some really crappy installs in this regard. Lots of raised houses with open parking underneath vulnerable. Couple vacation homes in area damaged due to this.Most got it straightened out by now.

Was the thermostatic light fixture a source of heat or a visual indicator of cold temp, that a full time neighbor could alert you to? Plenty of guys still use that in the bilge of their boat over the winter as a compartment heater.

Skiff

The light is to alert the neighbors -- no heat. Colored bulb. Same thing as used in a boat for space heater.

Agree on the condensing boilers. IMO they don't make any sense in retrofit situations unless we are talking about a large BTU usage. The 10-12% savings (max) in fuel is offset by the higher unit expense and any additional maintenance.

That's why i don't like to drop the temp too much -- if something does happen .. it gives a greater buffer. When was a kid our place on LBI was only for the summer and we drained everything (not much to drain) --- the days of small uninsulated Cape style houses on big beach lots are long gone.

 

[stokefire7]

Here is the existing setup:
Wall hung Baxi Luna 3 combination boiler/water heater. Single zone baseboard with propylene glycol, heats an 1100 sq ft weekend home using nat gas. Heat loop volume is just about 5 gallons.

Water supply is currently left on when away, due to the running boiler, which is set for 60 deg. I want to shutoff the water supply as I feel we're pushing our luck.....

Would adding a make up water tank allow me to cut water supply yet still run boiler? One model I've looked at has a 6 gallon capacity,pump, alarm capability,etc.

http://https://www.supplyhouse.com/Axiom-MF200-MF200-PRESSURE-PAL-Hydronic-Mini-System-Feeder-6-Gallon?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjff9-66h2QIVAYzICh2vfArREAQYASABEgLhnPD_BwE


Thanks,
Skiff Builder

Yes.

 

[Skiff Builder]

Bondo,
Sounds like you got a real nice setup in a real nice place(s). I had seen something about a tank placed high enough above boiler to create enough head to fill when needed. Your idea with a pressurized tank is great.

Thks for the dock offer. Will get back up your way one of these days.

 

[Bondo]

Bondo,
Sounds like you got a real nice setup in a real nice place(s). I had seen something about a tank placed high enough above boiler to create enough head to fill when needed. Your idea with a pressurized tank is great.

Thks for the dock offer. Will get back up your way one of these days.

Ayuh,.... I'll be here,....

'n I can be found daily at iboats.com,...
I'm a Mod over there,....