Malco Eagle Grips from a different perspective.

[bwringer]

The Eagle Grips are not "wobbly, janky, or crude" by any stretch, but if you're looking for a different design all together, check out the Facom Lock Grips.

They're a little different, but not fundamentally much different. And they're still largely sheet metal.

Sure, after the Malco $45-55 "best in the market" product not selling enough to keep a factory running, someone needs to market an all forged, super precise, $50+ locking plier. Because the $45 Malco's flew off the shelves. Sounds like a great business opportunity, even if you can make them in China and try to sell them for $35 vs the $10-15 competition. Locking pliers do not need to have the same jaw play that a single-hinge-joint forged and fully machined pliers do; that's not required for their purpose. Yeah, it'd be nice, but no one will pay for it.

Just a guess, but... the Malco pliers looked EXACTLY the same as the same ol' Irwin design that later got sold to China and made out of cheese, then became the generic default for hundreds of cheap off-brands that also look exactly the same from two feet away. It's only fairly recently that pretty decent versions made in Taiwan have arrived on the scene (Milwaukee and Bremen at HF); again, exactly, or nearly exactly, the same design.

Yes, the Malcos are made to a much higher standard, and are instantly and obviously better tools up close and in the hand, but aside from we few brethren and sistren huddled here, hardly anyone else can tell the difference, and even fewer are willing to pay for it. It was a noble but obviously doomed effort.

Still, Snap-On, Knipex/Orbis, Tsunoda, Engineer (and other Japanese brands), and now even HF's Icon brand prove that there is a steady market for higher-end pliers in general.

There is room for a fundamentally better and visually distinct locking pliers design that is NOT made from sheet metal.

So where is it? Even Knipex's locking pliers are the exact same damn janky pinchy sheet metal design and mechanism, but with a release lever painted red: https://www.knipex.com/products/grip-pliers

Like, woooooooo.

Obviously, these pliers, and those from other good brands are usually higher quality in the details like hardness of the teeth, but where is the Great Leap Forward in locking pliers? Even the Facom Lock Grips (and many others) are not innovations, just variations on a theme around the exact same mechanism.

 

[m6z]

Do you want to work in a shop that forges tools for peanuts? Pretty much everyone is going to answer no to that and that's why production of these low margin/high labor ventures fail.

 

[F-22]

They're a little different, but not fundamentally much different. And they're still largely sheet metal.



Just a guess, but... the Malco pliers looked EXACTLY the same as the same ol' Irwin design that later got sold to China and made out of cheese, then became the generic default for hundreds of cheap off-brands that also look exactly the same from two feet away. It's only fairly recently that pretty decent versions made in Taiwan have arrived on the scene (Milwaukee and Bremen at HF); again, exactly, or nearly exactly, the same design.

Yes, the Malcos are made to a much higher standard, and are instantly and obviously better tools up close and in the hand, but aside from we few brethren and sistren huddled here, hardly anyone else can tell the difference, and even fewer are willing to pay for it. It was a noble but obviously doomed effort.

Still, Snap-On, Knipex/Orbis, Tsunoda, Engineer (and other Japanese brands), and now even HF's Icon brand prove that there is a steady market for higher-end pliers in general.

There is room for a fundamentally better and visually distinct locking pliers design that is NOT made from sheet metal.

So where is it? Even Knipex's locking pliers are the exact same damn janky pinchy sheet metal design and mechanism, but with a release lever painted red: https://www.knipex.com/products/grip-pliers

Like, woooooooo.

Obviously, these pliers, and those from other good brands are usually higher quality in the details like hardness of the teeth, but where is the Great Leap Forward in locking pliers? Even the Facom Lock Grips (and many others) are not innovations, just variations on a theme around the exact same mechanism.

Thing with these pliers is that they are typically used around welders and grinders so inevitably they get damaged. Due to that I think they focus on making them cheaper and more disposable and also light. It is interesting that there is not much choice for a proper forged one, but if you want much more strength it's better to use a different clamp like even a bench vice or an F clamp... Those come in very high end versions.

 

[qqzj]

They're a little different, but not fundamentally much different. And they're still largely sheet metal.



Just a guess, but... the Malco pliers looked EXACTLY the same as the same ol' Irwin design that later got sold to China and made out of cheese, then became the generic default for hundreds of cheap off-brands that also look exactly the same from two feet away. It's only fairly recently that pretty decent versions made in Taiwan have arrived on the scene (Milwaukee and Bremen at HF); again, exactly, or nearly exactly, the same design.

Yes, the Malcos are made to a much higher standard, and are instantly and obviously better tools up close and in the hand, but aside from we few brethren and sistren huddled here, hardly anyone else can tell the difference, and even fewer are willing to pay for it. It was a noble but obviously doomed effort.

Still, Snap-On, Knipex/Orbis, Tsunoda, Engineer (and other Japanese brands), and now even HF's Icon brand prove that there is a steady market for higher-end pliers in general.

There is room for a fundamentally better and visually distinct locking pliers design that is NOT made from sheet metal.

So where is it? Even Knipex's locking pliers are the exact same damn janky pinchy sheet metal design and mechanism, but with a release lever painted red: https://www.knipex.com/products/grip-pliers

Like, woooooooo.

Obviously, these pliers, and those from other good brands are usually higher quality in the details like hardness of the teeth, but where is the Great Leap Forward in locking pliers? Even the Facom Lock Grips (and many others) are not innovations, just variations on a theme around the exact same mechanism.

Your remarks about Irwin are so wrong that you lost your credibility right away. Nobody should pay attention to your opinions

 

[bwringer]

Your remarks about Irwin are so wrong that you lost your credibility right away. Nobody should pay attention to your opinions

You seem tense. Need a hug?


Not sure what's inaccurate here. The original US-made Irwins are great; I have a few old pairs and use them regularly. The brand moved to China, and the Chinese-made Irwins are rightly and widely regarded as poorly made garbage.

Thing with these pliers is that they are typically used around welders and grinders so inevitably they get damaged. Due to that I think they focus on making them cheaper and more disposable and also light. It is interesting that there is not much choice for a proper forged one, but if you want much more strength it's better to use a different clamp like even a bench vice or an F clamp... Those come in very high end versions.

All quite true; maybe this is just one of those tools that's better off not being very fancy.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

The guys at work from Europe aren’t as picky with their tools. I’ve seen them leave stuff on their carts saturated in coolant, beat on stuff with wrenches as hammers, cut and grind brand new tools to fit a specific task. They don’t care about chrome plating or polish or broach marks. To them, the more industrial the better. I think that’s a big player. We, as Americans, seem to value form and function while they are all about function. Hence we have US companies making these expensive and beautiful jewelry-like tools while Knipex sells basic locking pliers for like $20. And least that’s my anecdotal evidence from my experiences at work.

 

[neophyte]

They're a little different, but not fundamentally much different. And they're still largely sheet metal.



Just a guess, but... the Malco pliers looked EXACTLY the same as the same ol' Irwin design that later got sold to China and made out of cheese, then became the generic default for hundreds of cheap off-brands that also look exactly the same from two feet away. It's only fairly recently that pretty decent versions made in Taiwan have arrived on the scene (Milwaukee and Bremen at HF); again, exactly, or nearly exactly, the same design.

Yes, the Malcos are made to a much higher standard, and are instantly and obviously better tools up close and in the hand, but aside from we few brethren and sistren huddled here, hardly anyone else can tell the difference, and even fewer are willing to pay for it. It was a noble but obviously doomed effort.

Still, Snap-On, Knipex/Orbis, Tsunoda, Engineer (and other Japanese brands), and now even HF's Icon brand prove that there is a steady market for higher-end pliers in general.

There is room for a fundamentally better and visually distinct locking pliers design that is NOT made from sheet metal.

So where is it? Even Knipex's locking pliers are the exact same damn janky pinchy sheet metal design and mechanism, but with a release lever painted red: https://www.knipex.com/products/grip-pliers

Like, woooooooo.

Obviously, these pliers, and those from other good brands are usually higher quality in the details like hardness of the teeth, but where is the Great Leap Forward in locking pliers? Even the Facom Lock Grips (and many others) are not innovations, just variations on a theme around the exact same mechanism.

The major somewhat recent innovations in locking pliers are;
-Facom 700 series locking pliers with the multiple indents so the jaws can be opened very wide. Admittedly, these aren’t really “New”, just mostly unknown in the USA until a couple decades ago.
-The more recent update on the Facom Wide mouth design, with the easy to use finger button release lever, which was originally used on both a die cast aluminum, and a plastic framed locking plier model Facom used to sell, before discontinuing that model and switching the release lever to their Chrome plated locking pliers.
-The C.H. Hanson self adjusting locking pliers, which have actually tested well in locking pliers tests, (as have the conventional C.H. Hanson locking pliers)
-There are also the specialty jaw pliers nade by Grip-On for clamping sheet metal for specific welding jobs.
Bessey and several other companies make special adjustable variations for welding pipe etc.
Most other locking plier advancements are variations on older designs, like you get with any tool.
Slightly newer jaw shapes, etc.

Locking pliers are basically an older manual hand tool, and most of the innovation has already happened, so figuring out how to take desirable features, and combine those into a useful tool, with quality manufacturing and a decent price is the main sign of a good manufacturer.

 

[neophyte]

The guys at work from Europe aren’t as picky with their tools. I’ve seen them leave stuff on their carts saturated in coolant, beat on stuff with wrenches as hammers, cut and grind brand new tools to fit a specific task. They don’t care about chrome plating or polish or broach marks. To them, the more industrial the better. I think that’s a big player. We, as Americans, seem to value form and function while they are all about function. Hence we have US companies making these expensive and beautiful jewelry-like tools while Knipex sells basic locking pliers for like $20. And least that’s my anecdotal evidence from my experiences at work.

If you want “industrial” looking tools made in the USA, those exist.
The Willians and Armstrong matt finish chrome plated tools were somewhat rough looking, and not “My Precious” shiny.
Both manufacturers also made black finished tools that were not for people who loved “Bling”.
Martin also makes Industrial looking tools in both a black and a matt chrome finish.
Nobody who wants polished and shiny is going to by the Martin wrenches.

 

[Steve_P]

Not sure what's inaccurate here. The original US-made Irwins are great; I have a few old pairs and use them regularly. The brand moved to China, and the Chinese-made Irwins are rightly and widely regarded as poorly made garbage.

In reality, the Chinese Irwin Vise Grips are actually pretty good. They get bashed here by a vocal minority- solely because they are not made in the USA anymore; and if it isn't, then it's junk. These are the same people who tell you to scour CL and yard sales for a vintage USA vise, because it has magic cast iron and the Chinese can't possibly make a good vise- and yet the vise tests on Youtube prove they can. Anyway, if you look at the Project Farm tests, the Chinese Irwins did very well for the $. Yes, not as good as the vintage USA ones, and not as good as Malco, but they're not junk and were one of the better pliers in the tests.

 

[neophyte]

In reality, the Chinese Irwin Vise Grips are actually pretty good. They get bashed here by a vocal minority- solely because they are not made in the USA anymore; and if it isn't, then it's junk. These are the same people who tell you to scour CL and yard sales for a vintage USA vise, because it has magic cast iron and the Chinese can't possibly make a good vise- and yet the vise tests on Youtube prove they can. Anyway, if you look at the Project Farm tests, the Chinese Irwins did very well for the $. Yes, not as good as the vintage USA ones, and not as good as Malco, but they're not junk and were one of the better pliers in the tests.

The issue with the Chinese ViseGrip brand locking pliers may have gone back to the Chinese made ones produced when Newell owned the brand.
Newell had/has a reputation for cheapening products from brands they purchased, and there are specific stories saying that as soon as Newell bought Petersen, Newell lowered the quality of the steel used even when the ViseGrip brand locking pliers were still US Made.

Stanley bought the Newell tool division fir close to $2 billion.
For all the **** Stanley gets, they’re a tool and hardware manufacturer with a long history, and a tool archives for research, and they likely realized how bad the changes Newell had made had affected the ViseGrip quality.
Stanley is a large enough manufacturer, with deep enough pockets to purchase the necessary quantities of steel the few actual good steel manufacturers in China require for a minimum order, so they probably spent a bit extra on steel to improve quality.

 

[Handyandy23]

Plain and simple, most people that complain about wanting more US-made tool options aren't willing to pay the price it costs to manufacture tools here.

Instead you get posts about how "they should sell them for $30" or trying to break down the cost analysis on why they're asking as much as they are, as if Malco themselves don't know in great detail how and why their costs are what they are, or that they wouldn't just lower the price to stay in business if they could.

The same thing happened here as you're seeing the Fireball thread, where everyone was lining up to buy the vises when they thought they were ~$1500ish, but running away when the final price of the US vise ended up at double (but then also not willing to spend the original $1500ish on the Taiwan made version even though Fireball says it's identical, and it's supporting a US company that fully designed it).

I'm sure the new Craftsman stuff will have the same fate (if it ever comes out) because everyone will gripe about having to pay $100 for a US-made ratchet that isn't "innovative" in any way other than being produced here instead of there.

Then at the other end of things you have companies like SB&D with US production facilities that assemble DeWalt tools with "global materials" and sell them at a competitive price while employing quite a few Americans, but people will turn their noses up at the idea of "made in US with global components" because it's not 'Merican enough. Meanwhile that's just SB&D doing exactly what people are suggesting in this thread, doing what they can to keep costs down so they sell the product at a price someone will actually pay.

/rant

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

Plain and simple, most people that complain about wanting more US-made tool options aren't willing to pay the price it costs to manufacture tools here.

Instead you get posts about how "they should sell them for $30" or trying to break down the cost analysis on why they're asking as much as they are, as if Malco themselves don't know in great detail how and why their costs are what they are, or that they wouldn't just lower the price to stay in business if they could.

The same thing happened here as you're seeing the Fireball thread, where everyone was lining up to buy the vises when they thought they were ~$1500ish, but running away when the final price of the US vise ended up at double (but then also not willing to spend the original $1500ish on the Taiwan made version even though Fireball says it's identical, and it's supporting a US company that fully designed it).

I'm sure the new Craftsman stuff will have the same fate (if it ever comes out) because everyone will gripe about having to pay $100 for a US-made ratchet that isn't "innovative" in any way other than being produced here instead of there.

Then at the other end of things you have companies like SB&D with US production facilities that assemble DeWalt tools with "global materials" and sell them at a competitive price while employing quite a few Americans, but people will turn their noses up at the idea of "made in US with global components" because it's not 'Merican enough. Meanwhile that's just SB&D doing exactly what people are suggesting in this thread, doing what they can to keep costs down so they sell the product at a price someone will actually pay.

/rant

I don't know. I feel like there is a big difference between a vise, a ratchet, or a pair of vise grips. You can argue that spending $100+ on a ratchet is viable since the quality ratchets can be rebuilt over their lives. Likewise, a vise should be designed and built to take an absolute beating over time. But vise grips? They are solidly in the disposable tool category. Most people thrash them, modify them, toss them around, and treat them like garbage and they can't just be rebuilt. If I hose the jaw serrations or crack the body, they are gone. I'm a huge proponent of American manufacturing, but I just think Malco's Eagle Grips were more of a Go-Fund-Me kind of venture than a real attempt at reshoring product.

As far as Americans complaining, being cheap and fickle....well yeah that is what we are known for.

 

[Handyandy23]

I don't know. I feel like there is a big difference between a vise, a ratchet, or a pair of vise grips. You can argue that spending $100+ on a ratchet is viable since the quality ratchets can be rebuilt over their lives. Likewise, a vise should be designed and built to take an absolute beating over time. But vise grips? They are solidly in the disposable tool category. Most people thrash them, modify them, toss them around, and treat them like garbage and they can't just be rebuilt. If I hose the jaw serrations or crack the body, they are gone. I'm a huge proponent of American manufacturing, but I just think Malco's Eagle Grips were more of a Go-Fund-Me kind of venture than a real attempt at reshoring product.

As far as Americans complaining, being cheap and fickle....well yeah that is what we are known for.

Definitely a wide range of price groups and categories there, but the common theme seems to be that people get used to paying a certain price for that product based on low overseas manufacturing costs, and then don't want to pony up for US-made versions. $50 feels expensive for disposable vise grips because everyone's used to getting them for $20. The US Fireball vise is expensive because it's twice the price of the Taiwan version.

The pattern seems to be that US-made means about double the retail price on most things, and aside from the tool truck hand tool brands (which have additional selling features through their business model of showing up at shops), most people don't seem willing to pay that price.

I'm not even trying to say that people should be willing to pay double the price, for me personally it goes on a case by case basis for value. But it just seems very inconsistent with this board's constant frothing at the mouth over tools needing to be domestically produced, while simultaneously being able to list off all the reasons they don't want to pay $50 for Eagle Grips.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

I'm not even trying to say that people should be willing to pay double the price, for me personally it goes on a case by case basis for value. But it just seems very inconsistent with this board's constant frothing at the mouth over tools needing to be domestically produced, while simultaneously being able to list off all the reasons they don't want to pay $50 for Eagle Grips.

I try not to wrap my head around it anymore because there are a lot of inconsistencies regarding COO and GJ.

 

[PlantItDeep]

I was not aware about this shutdown until today, when I went to order a few more.

Very sad to see.

I will say that I personally thought the price was perfectly reasonable. I did not go and buy hundreds of them, but I diid not even look at any alternatives after I bought my first few sets. The quality was impeccable. Well worth the money.
In my experience they were much better built than the chinese-made vise-grips, spanish Grip on/Snap On, and the one pair of Knipex locking pliers I have. It may only be my experience, but neither the grip-on nor the knipex matched the performance of the Eagle Grips (which perform well compared to my old petersons)

I use vise grips every other day or so here and was happy to pay the money for ones that worked and lasted.

 

[dnschmidt]

I was not aware about this shutdown until today, when I went to order a few more.

Very sad to see.

I will say that I personally thought the price was perfectly reasonable. I did not go and buy hundreds of them, but I diid not even look at any alternatives after I bought my first few sets. The quality was impeccable. Well worth the money.
In my experience they were much better built than the chinese-made vise-grips, spanish Grip on/Snap On, and the one pair of Knipex locking pliers I have. It may only be my experience, but neither the grip-on nor the knipex matched the performance of the Eagle Grips (which perform well compared to my old petersons)

I use vise grips every other day or so here and was happy to pay the money for ones that worked and lasted.

Obviously there were too few people like you that felt that way. To many of us Vice-Grips are disposable welding clamps.

 

[PlantItDeep]

Obviously there were too few people like you that felt that way. To many of us Vice-Grips are disposable welding clamps.

Yes, certainly the case it seems.