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MAP and Propane torch question

Illini Pete

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hey Guys,

Can I use the starter/tip off my propane torch to put on a new MAP gas cylinder? Everything is or will be Benzomatic. I see the MAP cylinder for $10 at my local store but the auto lighting tip for it is $40. I'd like to reuse my auto lighting tip on my propane torch on a new MAP cylinder.

Thanks!
Pete
 
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theoldwizard1

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Can I use the starter/tip off my propane torch to put on a new MAP gas cylinder?

These do NOT exist ! The only thing you can buy these day is MAP Pro which has about the same temp and heat energy as propane. Use propane and save a few $$ !
 
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Illini Pete

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DUH! I saw MAP Pro and just thought that was a brand.

So what exactly is MAP Pro, combo of MAP and propane? I need more heat than what I'm getting out of my propane torch.

Thanks
 

theoldwizard1

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From Wikipedia

Current products labeled "MAPP" are, in fact, MAPP substitutes. These versions are stabilized liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) with high levels of propylene.

The blend of gases likely varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some claim similar performance to MAPP (temp/heat energy) but most concede is is pretty close to plain old propane.

FYI - LPG, like you put on a BBQ tank, varies by region of the country and time of the year.
 

NYBODYMAN

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I'm looking into the same to use for some rusty bolts on my Bronco. Is the Map Pro better than propane for this application?
 

firworks

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Near me the MAPP is only a few bucks more (7$ vs ~4$ as I remember it) so I grab the MAPP. I have used it for heating up a seized on outer tie rod and it worked great, but was pretty slow. You've really gotta clean as much surface rust off as you can and be willing to soak it for a while. Propane may have also worked, but I don't know. Using any of the little Bernzomatics with either MAPP or Propane though is going to take a long time compared to a torch in a shop so just be ready for that.
 

justme-

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Some aren't reading the responses....mapp gas bottles are.not real mapp gas...it's basically log/propane...they don't give any appreciable heat more than plain propane because it's basically just propane.

If you need or want more heat than propane you need to add oxygen. We run propane oxy for a shop torch when more heat is needed but normally straight propane is enough.

You may want to upgrade your torch.. a $50 turbo torch puts out more heat than a $10 brass one.
 

theoldwizard1

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From Wikipedia

In the spring of 2008, true MAPP gas production ended in North America when production was discontinued at the only remaining plant in North America that still manufactured it. Current products labeled "MAPP" are, in fact, MAPP substitutes. These versions are stabilized liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) with high levels of propylene.
 

gungatim

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ayuh, the only way to get real MAPP gas is to find it used at yard sales. I picked up 3 new bottles with old 70's Kmart price tags on it last year...finding MAPP is like finding R12, it's all in the hunt...

you could see if you could find one of those old little portable oxy/propane/MAPP torch setups the hardware stores used to sell, the oxy bottles aren't cheap but you'd get way more heat with one of those vs. straight MApp pro or Propane...
 
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Illini Pete

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Wow I had no idea things were so complicated! I'm trying to free a stuck tie rod end and have spent a lot of time with a propane torch to no avail. I hear lots of recommendations from the Land Cruiser crowd for MAP for burning out old spring/shackle bushings, freeing stuck parts, etc. Now that the hotter MAP gas is gone, what are my options beside something like an acetylene set up which I'd rather not get into because i don't have a frequent need for it?

Thanks
 

theoldwizard1

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...finding MAPP is like finding R12, ...

R12 is still available, although the price keeps going up. I think "end of life" is 2020.


Not an expert, but I have heard that propane makes an excellent refrigerant, except for the fact that t is flammable !
 

American Locomotive

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The "MAP/Pro" has a marginally higher flame temp, but it delivers around 10% more heat energy to the work piece. Not as much as real MAPP (which was around 20-25% more than Propane).

You may or may not notice the 10% difference depending on what you're trying to do. I find the actual torch type you use makes a far larger difference. The standard "old-school" propane torches are useless for trying to get any large piece of metal hot. Something like a TS-4000 puts a lot more heat into a part, a lot faster.
R12 is still available, although the price keeps going up. I think "end of life" is 2020.
R12 hasn't been produced in almost 20 years. Any R12 you find is either new-old-stock or recovered.
 

theoldwizard1

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Bernzomatic lists open-air flame temps of 3600°F for Propane and 3730°F for MAP/Pro. They don't list a temp for Oxygen.

According to one reference, acetylene, in air at atmospheric pressure is about 4600°F

... Now that the hotter MAP gas is gone, what are my options beside something like an acetylene set up
Acetylene WITHOUT oxygen. Still a lot more money than a propane/MAPP hand torch but A/C guys love it for brazing because it heats copper fast, especially with those cool 2 jet flame heads !
 

gungatim

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you could always make a Reil burner using propane and compressed air, or even a diesel blow torch, but unless you REALLY like playing with fire, find someone with an acetylene torch you can borrow for a 6-pack (not the Kenny Rogers one)...
 
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MoonRise

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(grrr, was typing out a response and my browser lost the window)

(take 2)

Heat (Btu/hr) and temperature (degrees F or C or whatever) are NOT the same thing.

To heat up a tie rod, you need enough heat.

Which can come from a combination of flame temperature and flame size.

Different torches, even with the same fuel and oxidizer, can produce different amounts of heat output.

re: the little oxy-propane torch sets

Nope, not enough heat from that little flame (although it certainly is hotter than an air-propane flame) to heat up a tie rod enough to do much good.

And those little 1.1 ft3 oxygen cylinders run about $10 each and only last about 20 minutes or so, depending on exactly how you set up the flame size.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/product/ox2550kc-cutting-welding-and-brazing-torch-kit/

http://www.bernzomatic.com/content/uploads/2015/05/WK5500OX_instructions.pdf

I have and have used this torch. It can heat up small things bright red hot, it can braze small things, and it can even oxy cut small steel items.

But the torch and flame size do not put out enough overall heat to get a tie rod hot enough.

It would be like trying to light up your living room with a laser pointer instead of a 60 watt light bulb.

Laser = focused and very intense light, but not a whole lot of overall light output (lumens)

plain old light bulb = enough light (lumens) to light up the room

Back to heating up you car parts.

You need a hot enough and big enough flame to get your steel parts hot enough.

Big daddy would be oxy-acetylene. With the 'right' size torch tip for the task at hand.

One step down would be an actual oxy-propane torch. Not the little Bernzomatic, but an actual welding/cutting/brazing torch from the likes of Victor, Harris, Smith or such.

A step down from there would be an air-acetylene torch.

A step down from there would be an air-propane torch with a big enough flame to get enough heat into your tie rod to do enough good.

A little pencil-flame air-propane plumbers torch doesn't produce enough heat (Btu/hr) for this task.

A bigger flame from a turbo/swirl air-propane torch might or might not be just enough heat output for you.

An air-propane weed burner can produce enough heat (on the order of 300k Btu/hr !!!) but is not all that controllable underneath a car.

An oxy-propane brazing/heating tip or a 'rosebud' oxy-propane torch tip might get the job done.

A big enough oxy-acetylene tip will get the job done.

Your call as to how you want to do it.

But as mentioned multiple times above, the current "MAP" gas (MAP/pro stuff, where the 'pro' is for propylene and not 'professional') is a propylene gas blend with about 10% more heat output than plain propane.

The old actual MAPP gas was about 25% more heat output than plain propane, if the torch burner head could utilize MAPP (some could, some couldn't). But since there is no more MAPP (not counting trying to find a garage sale cylinder here or there) available, it doesn't matter what MAPP used to be able to do.
 

ovrrdrive

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Since MAPP is no longer available when I see someone ask about MAPP I just assume they are referring to the now widely available MAPP Pro substitute and just answer their question based on that assumption without feeling the need to correct them on it...

Now on the other hand, use their instead of there and I'm all over that ****... lol
 
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Illini Pete

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Illinois Flatlands
(grrr, was typing out a response and my browser lost the window)

(take 2)

Heat (Btu/hr) and temperature (degrees F or C or whatever) are NOT the same thing.

To heat up a tie rod, you need enough heat.

Which can come from a combination of flame temperature and flame size.

Different torches, even with the same fuel and oxidizer, can produce different amounts of heat output.

re: the little oxy-propane torch sets

Nope, not enough heat from that little flame (although it certainly is hotter than an air-propane flame) to heat up a tie rod enough to do much good.

And those little 1.1 ft3 oxygen cylinders run about $10 each and only last about 20 minutes or so, depending on exactly how you set up the flame size.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/product/ox2550kc-cutting-welding-and-brazing-torch-kit/

http://www.bernzomatic.com/content/uploads/2015/05/WK5500OX_instructions.pdf

I have and have used this torch. It can heat up small things bright red hot, it can braze small things, and it can even oxy cut small steel items.

But the torch and flame size do not put out enough overall heat to get a tie rod hot enough.

It would be like trying to light up your living room with a laser pointer instead of a 60 watt light bulb.

Laser = focused and very intense light, but not a whole lot of overall light output (lumens)

plain old light bulb = enough light (lumens) to light up the room

Back to heating up you car parts.

You need a hot enough and big enough flame to get your steel parts hot enough.

Big daddy would be oxy-acetylene. With the 'right' size torch tip for the task at hand.

One step down would be an actual oxy-propane torch. Not the little Bernzomatic, but an actual welding/cutting/brazing torch from the likes of Victor, Harris, Smith or such.

A step down from there would be an air-acetylene torch.

A step down from there would be an air-propane torch with a big enough flame to get enough heat into your tie rod to do enough good.

A little pencil-flame air-propane plumbers torch doesn't produce enough heat (Btu/hr) for this task.

A bigger flame from a turbo/swirl air-propane torch might or might not be just enough heat output for you.

An air-propane weed burner can produce enough heat (on the order of 300k Btu/hr !!!) but is not all that controllable underneath a car.

An oxy-propane brazing/heating tip or a 'rosebud' oxy-propane torch tip might get the job done.

A big enough oxy-acetylene tip will get the job done.

Your call as to how you want to do it.

But as mentioned multiple times above, the current "MAP" gas (MAP/pro stuff, where the 'pro' is for propylene and not 'professional') is a propylene gas blend with about 10% more heat output than plain propane.

The old actual MAPP gas was about 25% more heat output than plain propane, if the torch burner head could utilize MAPP (some could, some couldn't). But since there is no more MAPP (not counting trying to find a garage sale cylinder here or there) available, it doesn't matter what MAPP used to be able to do.

Great info, Thanks!
 

PugetDude

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I use an oxy-propane set up for cutting and heating. It's an old oxy-acetylene setup, but with a Harris Propane tip and a Propane BBQ bottle instead of an acetylene tank. Works well for what I'm using it for- and it's a heck of a lot cheaper than the cost of an acetylene tank.
 
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BDT/NWMN

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:thumbup: MoonRise

That is a good, useful explanation.

For someone thinking about buying a torch; that is worth printing a copy for future reference.
 

firworks

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That comparison info is useful, but the statement that it isn't enough to do any given job is opinion. It might not work on all vehicles and situations but last year I literally used a Bernzomatic TS4000 with a MAP Pro cylinder to remove a stuck on tie rod end. It took about 5 minutes of heat but it worked and it worked well. Without it I would have been completely stuck.

I was bending my Wrightgrips trying to back off the jam nut/remove the end. Cleaned it, soaked it with the torch for 5 minutes and it came loose no problem. If you have a stuck fastener and you DONT have anything better it's not pointless to try one of the MAPP cylinders or even a propane cylinder. It "might" still work.

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gungatim

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fireworks is correct, it just depends on how much heat you NEED...melting, brazing, welding and even soldering needs different temps and btu's than heating something enough to break free a tight or rusted fitting. unfortunately it's not always easy to know how much is enough...personally I've never had much luck with jut propane, if something is tight enough I can't loosen it with conventional means, propane/MAPP pro generally isn't enough either. case in point, try getting an old rusty stud out of an exhaust manifold. if it aint at least cherry red, good luck...
 

MikeF2316

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I've had lots of luck heating rusty nuts with a swirl combustion propane torch. In many ways it's better than oxy-acetylene because you can't overheat what you're trying to take apart. With oxy-acetylene you can melt what you're trying to heat, especially if you're impatient. That is until you get to something you can't get hot enough...
 

brogmi

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I've had lots of luck heating rusty nuts with a swirl combustion propane torch.

Thanks for the tip. There's always something new to learn.

I spent a couple of hours under my truck yesterday taking off the old exhaust system. My Bernzomatic/fake MAPP gas torch just wasn't hot enough and I broke a manifold stud so I was Googling around looking for a hotter torch. Also learned about fake MAPP gas. :sad:

Looks like Turbo Torch is the brand the pros use. I also need to solder some 2-1/2" copper pipe soon so this new-found knowledge is timely. I have just bought the Turbo Torch STK-99 and STK-11 from Amazon.

 

theoldwizard1

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If you want heat, but don't want the expense of oxy-acetylene, get an acetylene only torch, hose and regulator. You will likely buy yourself a small bottle. Not a cheap rig, but it is what most of the HVAC guys use for brazing copper.
 

Jim c

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How about discussing the stuck tie rod? Usually, you do not need any heat to work with a tie rod. If you are trying to rotate the tie rod connector, first loosen the clamps and then use a screwdriver and insert it in to the opening and use the screwdriver to rotate the coupler; the screwdriver will exert a spreading force on the coupler as you rotate it. Also, you can shoot a little penetrating oil in the coupler. ( many folks try using a pipe wrench to rotate a tie rod coupler; this never works; the pipe wrench exerts a crushing force on the coupler making it tighter as you try to rotate it. ). Also, heat just IS NOT the right way to be working on your steering parts. Use the correct tools from the start and you will be fine. As for the map gas torch head: the old push button map gas torch head is much better than the cruddy propane head that you had to light with a seperate striker. The push button head is just way better. Spend the 45 dollars and get the push button auto ignition map head. Also, you can go to sears and even some Walmart stores and get the little oxy and map torch combo it is around 100 dollars I have one of those also, and though I almost never need to use it, when I do find myself in need of some intense heat it really is nice to have it around. The small oxygen cylinders are about 10 to 13 dollars and they last around 10 minutes at full use, longer if you don’t crank it up to the max. Again, you don’t need heat to loosen that tie rod coupler use a scrwedriver to spread and turn.
 

AA/FC

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R12 is still available, although the price keeps going up. I think "end of life" is 2020.

I have found the opposite. I can buy (recycled) R-12 at the local Napa if I need it but I already have 60+ pounds of it. However, I have kept my eye on R-12 prices over the years and around here it seems the price has gradually gone down. Keep in mind, the last production vehicles to use R-12 from the factory are about 26 years old now. Not many people are insistent on using R-12 when recharging cars that are typically worth less than a 30 pond tank of refrigerant. Most people will just convert over to R-134a. In fact, the only reason why I still keep R-12 is for recharging systems that can't be converted, or on high end cars that have had complete restorations and the customer wants to keep the A/C system original.

As for "end of life" I'm not sure what that means. Refrigerant doesn't go bad or expire and as long as we still have some inventory of R-12 in this country, there will never be an official "end of life". R-12 is perfectly legal to own, use, possess, buy or sell any existing inventory already in this country. It's ILLEGAL to manufacture or import into the US.
 
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