Massive plumbing issue

[Shriner]

Without going into too much detail, we had a house fire so we were essentially "forced" to pull permits through the County for the rebuild in order to get an occupancy permit. Mind you, this was not a major rebuild as the fire was in the attached garage and spread to the bedroom above. The garage and bedrooms/bathroom above it were all part of an addition completed by the previous owner roughly twenty years ago, permitted by the County. We removed all of the drywall in the garage and of course the bathroom water supplies and drains are located in the garage ceiling joists (since there would be literally no other place to put them). We are re-doing the bathroom as part of the rebuild and the County will not pass the rough plumbing. Per the County, no water supplies can be in an exterior wall, garage wall, attic or unconditioned area. This is obviously recently new code OR they somehow missed it when the addition was built.

That said, we have lived there for 11 years and have NEVER had a frozen pipe. The coldest I have ever seen the garage is 40 degrees even if minus 20 outside, simply because the garage is insulated with a common wall to the house and bedrooms above. The walls are R-15 and the ceiling joists will have R-49. Some of the water supplies are 4 inches from the bottom of the ceiling joists while others are higher up.

Any ideas? Keep in mind the County is saying heated garages are not allowed so that would not alleviate our issue of passing rough plumbing.

 

[Old tool guy]

Couple of thoughts. Can you build a separation between the garage and bathroom that satisfies their concerns? Like a rated firewall for the ceiling of the garage with enough insulation to prevent freezing.

And you might post this at the building code forum.

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They will want to know what state you are in and what building code is in effect. Not a big deal if you don’t know. Well … big deal if you don’t know the state …

 

[pcmeiners]

"Any ideas? Keep in mind the County is saying heated garages are not allowed so that would not alleviate our issue of passing rough plumbing."

That does not sound right. So they are saying you can not heat an area with, say a minisplit, to protect your possessions.?????? Perhaps in Singapore they have rules like that, but here in the US?


"They will want to know what state you are in and what building code is in effect. "

We want to know what planet you are from.

 

[RegeSullivan]

If you insulated below the joist wouldn't that be conditioned space above (between) where the supply lines will run because it is part of the conditioned bedroom.

 

[Shriner]

Couple of thoughts. Can you build a separation between the garage and bathroom that satisfies their concerns? Like a rated firewall for the ceiling of the garage with enough insulation to prevent freezing.

And you might post this at the building code forum.

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They will want to know what state you are in and what building code is in effect. Not a big deal if you don’t know. Well … big deal if you don’t know the state …

Good idea. Yes, I could do that but that would involve dropping the ceiling by roughly twelve inches in order to have R49 below the water supplies. I simply cannot lose twelve inches in the garage, it is not tall to begin with.

State: IL
Code: Per plans, IL plumbing code and County ordinance

 

[Shriner]

"Any ideas? Keep in mind the County is saying heated garages are not allowed so that would not alleviate our issue of passing rough plumbing."

That does not sound right. So they are saying you can not heat an area with, say a minisplit, to protect your possessions.?????? Perhaps in Singapore they have rules like that, but here in the US?


"They will want to know what state you are in and what building code is in effect. "

We want to know what planet you are from.

Correct, I could not believe it so I looked it up. Newer regulations in IL, you can't heat a garage (with permits) unless you meet thermal envelope tests, interior insulation requirements, etc. which virtually no garage will be able to do.

 

[Shriner]

If you insulated below the joist wouldn't that be conditioned space above (between) where the supply lines will run because it is part of the conditioned bedroom.

You are correct, but unfortunately I would then have to fit R49 in below the ceiling joists which would cost me roughly 12" of ceiling height.

 

[duneslider]

This doesn't make sense, living space is built over garages everywhere. Although, maybe not in IL now? I get it if they want to enforce this on new construction but on an existing structure that doesn't make sense.

 

[Shriner]

I agree with you 100% but they are saying they do not want to be responsible if water pipes freeze. I cannot figure a way around this that is reasonable.

 

[Old tool guy]

Good idea. Yes, I could do that but that would involve dropping the ceiling by roughly twelve inches in order to have R49 below the water supplies. I simply cannot lose twelve inches in the garage, it is not tall to begin with.

3 choices:
1- lose the headroom in the garage
2- delete the bathroom above
3- find another solution.

 

[Old tool guy]

but on an existing structure that doesn't make sense.

The county logic is probably that this is new construction. The previous garage and living space were condemned.

 

[Adaylate]

Have you talked to your insurance company about this?
I doubt you're the first one in Illinois to have this problem.
Good luck!

 

[ybnormal]

questions:
-is insurance covering this?
-are you doing the work?
-have you spoken with a General Contractor?

when I had a lightning strike the GC handled everything, from start to finish.

 

[Wolley]

If it's just the supply lines you could move them to interior walls. Hard to say without knowing where the water is coming from

 

[Shriner]

There is no way to move the supplies anywhere other than where they are. Water supplies have to come from underneath for the floor tub spout and the toilet.

Insurance has been excellent, but there is nothing to cover here. It is not a monetary issue; it is a matter of getting rough plumbing passed. A licensed plumber did all the work. General contractor is frustrated as well; nobody can believe this is happening after the pipes were in the same location for a relatively new addition.

 

[Adaylate]

If you can't get It passed.....
It is the insurance companies job to make you "whole" again.
That may mean a new plumber, general contractor or a complete teardown/ rebuild. Depends on your coverage.
Check it out.
Good luck!

 

[MarcSeattle]

There is good reason for the rule. You might not have had a problem with freezing. You might use that living space. You might have cars in the garage that warm the ceiling joist space. Imagine if that weren't the case. A retired couple buys the house and decides to go to Florida for a month in February. The house is heated but they reduce the heat to the bedroom over the garage down to 50. The garage is unheated and with no warm cars the garage gets down to the outside temp of minus 10 in an Illinois February snowstorm with 30mph winds. Yep, that's likely to freeze the pipes.

Sounds like the only permit-acceptable place to put the feed lines is in the walls of the living space above the garage. Is there an alternate route? I assume the house has a second floor too. Rather than the current routing of the hot and cold water pipes going horizontally through the garage ceiling joists and then turn upward to go into the bathroom, they would go vertically up through the house wall, into the wall on the second floor of the house, then turn to go horizontal into the wall of the living space above the garage. Would that pass? Looks like quite a bit of work.

 

[Shriner]

Very well said Marc. You bring up excellent points.

Yes, you could probably do that re-routing at SIGNIFICANT cost and tearing out walls, but you still could not avoid toilet supply and tub supply being in the ceiling joists. Eventually the supplies have to get below the floor.

I am starting to think the only real solution would be to have the plumbing pipes done again, at a cost of $10k roughly, and have them hug the plywood floor in the garage ceiling and then we could spray foam to get the necessary R-value between the drywall and the supplies. I have racked by brain and do not see any other realistic solution. My contractor friends have all said just to install heating after the permit is closed out. Even if I heat the garage with radiant heating or a hanging furnace, I would have to make sure the next owner understands the garage always has to be heated.

 

[billconner]

Have you exhausted the appeals route?

Enough height in rooms above garage to raise bathroom floor 6"? Then insulate between rafters?

I don't know what zone your in but probably 4, 5, or 6, which all require R30 in floor, not 49. That shouldn't be too hard. (That's 2021 IRC, and I think was lower in 2018, so might not be that much. Illinois is slow to adopt new versions usually. And if southern IL, maybe zone 3.)

Last, could you drop ceiling just under bathroom? A kind of box on the ceiling?

I still would appeal first and loudest.

 

[Just_Steve]

Drop the ceiling, pass inspection, get your CO, raise ceiling back to where you want it. Has to be cheaper then 10k plumbing redo.
Life is good.

 

[PCustoms]

Very well said Marc. You bring up excellent points.

Yes, you could probably do that re-routing at SIGNIFICANT cost and tearing out walls, but you still could not avoid toilet supply and tub supply being in the ceiling joists. Eventually the supplies have to get below the floor.

I am starting to think the only real solution would be to have the plumbing pipes done again, at a cost of $10k roughly, and have them hug the plywood floor in the garage ceiling and then we could spray foam to get the necessary R-value between the drywall and the supplies. I have racked by brain and do not see any other realistic solution. My contractor friends have all said just to install heating after the permit is closed out. Even if I heat the garage with radiant heating or a hanging furnace, I would have to make sure the next owner understands the garage always has to be heated.

Why would you pay $10k?

If the GC/Plumber did plumbing knowingly NOT to code, that's their problem.

If they are confident they are to code, then it's still their problem to fight the inspector.

Has anyone escalated it higher up the building department?

 

[Shriner]

Why would you pay $10k?

If the GC/Plumber did plumbing knowingly NOT to code, that's their problem.

If they are confident they are to code, then it's still their problem to fight the inspector.

Has anyone escalated it higher up the building department?

It goes no higher believe it or not; and I am in a LARGE Illinois county...there is only one plumbing inspector.

The problem with saying the GC/Plumber should be responsible is that there is no way to have run the pipes that would comply. That being said, it would have been better if they brought it to my attention before the work was completed.

 

[Old tool guy]

There is no way to move the supplies anywhere other than where they are. Water supplies have to come from underneath for the floor tub spout and the toilet.

Disagree. The supply lines can be in the wall. The drain lines have to be in the floor.

 

[dcg9381]

If the GC/Plumber did plumbing knowingly NOT to code, that's their problem.

It's your problem if you've paid them.

If they are confident they are to code, then it's still their problem to fight the inspector.

The deal here is that this is a "rebuild" and they are applying new code (which is probably right). Without a floor plan, it's hard to give options, but around here plumbing comes out of the foundation and "moving" it to an inside wall would mean cutting concrete.

Correct, I could not believe it so I looked it up. Newer regulations in IL, you can't heat a garage (with permits) unless you meet thermal envelope tests, interior insulation requirements, etc. which virtually no garage will be able to do.

GJ! Garages are tigher than homes..
(Kidding, R49 is NUTS)

Is there any way to "fur out" a wall to get a supply line in and satisfy this requirement? I get why it's there, 1/2 of Texas blew up (lines in exterior walls) when it hit 20 degrees for a few days... The fact that your home handled it isn't going to change code.

 

[Shriner]

Disagree. The supply lines can be in the wall. The drain lines have to be in the floor.

I hear you but the tub faucet mounts to the floor; at some point, that supply has to go through the joist cavity below. The rest would require cutting a hole through every stud in the bathroom and having a joint every 16" which would be insane (maybe not even code). That is if I could even get the main supply to the bathroom without going through an exterior wall or unconditioned area. It's just not possible in our house unfortunately.

 

[Shriner]

It's your problem if you've paid them.


The deal here is that this is a "rebuild" and they are applying new code (which is probably right). Without a floor plan, it's hard to give options, but around here plumbing comes out of the foundation and "moving" it to an inside wall would mean cutting concrete.

GJ! Garages are tigher than homes..
(Kidding, R49 is NUTS)

Is there any way to "fur out" a wall to get a supply line in and satisfy this requirement? I get why it's there, 1/2 of Texas blew up (lines in exterior walls) when it hit 20 degrees for a few days... The fact that your home handled it isn't going to change code.

Yes, as mentioned above, I could build the entire garage ceiling down and meet code. Then I would have to rip it apart after the occupancy permit is granted; because I simply cannot lose 12 inches of ceiling height. It would essentially defeat the purpose of my garage otherwise.

 

[PCustoms]

I hear you but the tub faucet mounts to the floor; at some point, that supply has to go through the joist cavity below. The rest would require cutting a hole through every stud in the bathroom and having a joint every 16" which would be insane (maybe not even code). That is if I could even get the main supply to the bathroom without going through an exterior wall or unconditioned area. It's just not possible in our house unfortunately.

Is PEX banned in your area?

 

[Shriner]

Is PEX banned in your area?

1000%! Suburbs of Chicago.

 

[Hank11]

1000%! Suburbs of Chicago.

Haven't paid off the right guys yet?

 

[BillK]

Not being able to see the big picture .... would it be able to open a"vent" of some type into the joist cavity so that it would be open to the bathroom and be considered a conditioned space ?

 

[loganb]

Would they accept permanently wired heat tape on both supply and drain line?

 

[billconner]

It goes no higher believe it or not; and I am in a LARGE Illinois county...there is only one plumbing inspector.

The problem with saying the GC/Plumber should be responsible is that there is no way to have run the pipes that would comply. That being said, it would have been better if they brought it to my attention before the work was completed.

Go to the one plumbing inspectors supervisor.

 

[MongoTA]

If you insulated below the joist wouldn't that be conditioned space above (between) where the supply lines will run because it is part of the conditioned bedroom.

BINGO!

That's what works in my area.

 

[Fixr]

I'm in the camp of putting it on your insurance company if possible. The "if possible" part may be a sticking point depending on the language of your policy. But if it's a straightforward "we will make you whole" policy, the technical, legal, and any hypothetical bribery details may legally be their problem.

As much as I hate to say it, consulting an insurance attorney might be a good idea, if only to keep from getting screwed on something that is obvious only to insurance adjusters and attorneys. And be sure to specify looking into grandfathering clauses.

 

[kbuhagiar]

Yes, you could probably do that re-routing at SIGNIFICANT cost and tearing out walls, but you still could not avoid toilet supply and tub supply being in the ceiling joists. Eventually the supplies have to get below the floor.

No they don't. My house is built on a slab and all water supply runs in the ceilings and drops down, to both the toilet(s) and tub(s).

I sympathize with your plight, but I disagree with your presumption.

Shouldn't your home/fire insurance cover whatever it costs to restore your residence?

 

[Fixr]

It goes no higher believe it or not; and I am in a LARGE Illinois county...there is only one plumbing inspector.

The problem with saying the GC/Plumber should be responsible is that there is no way to have run the pipes that would comply. That being said, it would have been better if they brought it to my attention before the work was completed.

That sounds like the GC/Plumber knowingly did work that wouldn't pass code or inspection by the AHJ. Unless they told you that ahead of time and you said to go ahead anyway, that would typically put the responsibility for fixing it squarely on them.

Really sounds like you need a specialized attorney. What you have been doing hasn't worked. So do something else.

 

[housewolf]

I agree with you 100% but they are saying they do not want to be responsible if water pipes freeze. I cannot figure a way around this that is reasonable.

Release them of any/all liability, apply for a variance.

Typically a job that is inspected has been permitted. Typically a plan has been submitted for approval prior to a permit being issued. Sounds as if something fell through the cracks here. If you have an approved drawing showing it same as they are turning down they have some ownership here too.

In 45 years of plumbing I’ve dealt with only a (very) few inspectors that were unreasonably hard to deal with. Those were almost exclusively outside agencies hired by a city or county to do inspections. They have people they report to, usually the building inspector. You could try and have the GC do some pleading for you but I believe as a homeowner you’ll find more understanding pleading the case yourself. There is always a solution. Good luck with it.

Disclaimer; I’ve done work from California to the Carolinas but never in IL.

 

[wssix99]

Correct, I could not believe it so I looked it up. Newer regulations in IL, you can't heat a garage (with permits) unless you meet thermal envelope tests, interior insulation requirements, etc. which virtually no garage will be able to do.

What county are you in? I have a heated garage in Chicago, which is more restrictive than any county in the State.

Plumbing doesn't go in exterior walls at all any more in our area. Insulated or not.

For our exterior walls where we had to have plumbing: We boxed out the wall and put it in a second 'wall' over the insulated exterior wall. In utility spaces, (for hose bibs, etc.) we surface mounted the plumbing and boxed around the pipe to protect it.

For the space above the garage, we tapped into the plumbing in rooms not over the garage and ran the plumbing in the ceilings and down into the walls. (This should not be a big deal for you.) If it is, you should be able to put in a false floor above the joists and you can run the plumbing there or create a raceway behind your cabinets and just notch them to hide the area blocked out for the plumbing.

We have our sewage lines in the floor above the garage, encapsulated in insulation and this was not an issue for code/inspections.

 

[wssix99]

Disclaimer; I’ve done work from California to the Carolinas but never in IL.

Plumbing is a different deal here...



The only variances given are when the plumbers dump chemicals into the River to make it green on St. Patrick's day...

 

[housewolf]

Plumbing is a different deal here...

I saw that picture and instantly thought of the one and only time our company was invited to the *** area plumbers invitational crappie tournament. We finished dead last and got a trophy that resembled a horses ***. We missed the “shotgun start” because we had to travel back to town to get more beer (we drank all we had the night before)