Massive window job

[lynnbilodeau]

I am CEO of the non profit that owns this building. It was built in 1902 and we are raising funds to restore it. At the bottom of this post are some links to a few stories about the building, where Oklahoma Statehood was announced from the second floor balcony in 1902. It is known today as the State Capital Publishing Museum. We have a 10 year plan to restore the building. It is a multi million dollor project. I don't want it "fixed up" for the next 10 years. I want this building restored and preseved for the next 100 years.

We need to replace 143 double hung windows (will be replacing the fixed windows at a later point in time). Most of them are approximately 8' x 4'. There are many other needs, but for now, we are starting with windows. It is in the historic district (in fact, the largest Federally recognized contiguous historic district in the Nation).

Of course, the original windows are wood. I don't want to replace them with wood windows, as they will need repainting every 10 years or so (especially on the East and West sides). I don't want vinyl, because they look like dime store windows. I don't want aluminum, well, because they look like ****.

Historic restrictions call for something that at least LOOKS like the original windows. The ordinance does not make wood mandatory. My wife and I live right next door in another building that was built in 1902. That's our "house" in the back ground in the pic below). When we replaced the windows in our home (someone put in aluminum windows before we moved in) we used Andersen Renewal composite windows with Cardinal E-366 glass. That worked great for us. They are white, which is what we believe was original to our building. I am thinking I want composite windows for the Museum. I know they will cost more than cookie cutter vinyl, but hey, they will last a lot longer and look much better.

When we did our windows, I replaced all of the rotted wood buck frame. For the bottom of the frame, I used hardie board 1x6 (or maybe the hardie plank which starts life at 7.25 inches) instead of wood. That was five years ago, and there is no hint of any paint peeling. I did no research before doing that; just got a wild hair and decided it would likely outlast wood. Other than being hard on saw blades, I saw no down side.

The Museum windows are all hunter green, and we are 99.999999% certain that they are the original color. So, going back with hunter green is a must. Andersen does not offer their composite windows in hunter green.

1. Does anyone know a manufacturer who will build a composite window in hunter green with the color "built in" to the composite? I would rather have something that is virtually maintenance free for 50+ years.

2. Can I special order Hardie Plank in hunter green? Is there any reason NOT to use hardi plank instead of wood for the buck frame? Does anyone know if the color goes all the way through, or are the hardie planks just painted?

I have some feelers out for some contractors who MAY be able to help me. However, so far, everyone wants to put in whatever cookie cutter window their crews are used to installing.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Just in case you are interested in more of the story (and if you haven't fallen asleep yet) here are a few links:

My first interview, before we even formed:

Less than one year later, we took titled to the building: (way too long to watch all of it)

Our current web page (we have applied for a grant that would fund a professional webmaster to improve)

https://www.publishingmuseum.org/mission.html

Our Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/publishingmuseum/

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Re: Massive window jog

I think I found the answer to the first part of question 2. They have a parkside pine color that is baked in. Looks close to hunter green.

 

[Bogie1632]

Re: Massive window jog

Will Anderson's Fibrex composite work? Their site has a build a window option and I see their composite can be colored for at least the exterior. They have Forest Green which is close. For that many windows maybe they can make a color adjustment. We're also looking at Anderson windows for our home next year.

https://www.andersenwindows.com/windows-and-doors/materials/composite-windows-doors/

Good story and good luck on the project.

V/R
Bogie

 

[chaosracing]

Re: Massive window jog

Hardie plank siding is painted. AFAIK there is no manufactured colored product similar to Hardie that is colored all the way through. PVC you are also in the same boat as it needs to be painted
Anderson does have a green colored composite window frame. They call it Forest Green.
Marvin has aluminum insert windows (replacement) that are available in green, but they are aluminum. Their color is Evergreen Now the thing to remember is todays finishes on aluminum are much better than the 80's and 90's windows.
Outside of that, you might have to have custom made windows made, or break down and have them painted.

The other issue your going to have is when you plan on replacing the large commercial style windows of trying to match colors. Check with a commercial glazing contractor. Most times alot of them also do residential when things slow down for them. I know a guy in my area that does both, but relies on commercial more than residential, but falls back on residential when commercial slows down.

 

[Bert_]

Re: Massive window jog

If you really want to do it right then keep the wood windows. None of the modern windows will last like the old growth wood that's already there. Not to mention looks...

Makes me very sad seeing so many buildings with modern replacement winds that are apparently "close enough". What is wrong with a little maintenance on a wood window every decade when it means they can last centuries instead of replacement every 30-40 years.

 

[CraigStu]

Re: Massive window jog

Bert looking at that building, painting the 143 windows won't be a 'little maintenance'.

 

[kj_mustang]

Re: Massive window jog

Marvin makes a hybrid window that is wood on the inside and fiberglass on the exterior that you may want to look at. https://www.marvin.com/

 

[jbfab]

Re: Massive window jog

Weathershield quit making their fiberglass line, but do make vinyl and aluminum CLAD windows in several configurations that would probably fit your needs. They do some very high end stuff, I'm pretty sure you would be satisfied with their product not looking cheap.

https://www.weathershield.com/Product/Weather-Shield-Premium-Series/PR_DoubleHung

 

[jbfab]

Re: Massive window jog

Actually, I just talked to my wife who works for Weathershield.

You would probably be looking for the signature series, as it has historical hardware as an option.

https://www.weathershield.com/Product/Weather-Shield-Signature-Series/SG_DoubleHung

If you need to get in touch with a sales rep, let me know. My wife knows the territory manager for that area and can get you in touch.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Re: Massive window jog

Will Anderson's Fibrex composite work? Their site has a build a window option and I see their composite can be colored for at least the exterior. They have Forest Green which is close. For that many windows maybe they can make a color adjustment. We're also looking at Anderson windows for our home next year.

https://www.andersenwindows.com/windows-and-doors/materials/composite-windows-doors/

Good story and good luck on the project.

V/R
Bogie

Fibrex is what we used in our home. I checked a couple years ago and they did not have the dark green. I see now that they do, so maybe that is the way to go.

I also see that custom sizes are available. I will be getting with an Andersen rep.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Re: Massive window jog

Thanks for the input on Weathershield. I will look into it.

On another note, thankfully, we don't need any simulated divided lights. They always LOOK simulated, and I would like to keep the exterior looking as period correct as possible.

I found a pre 1910 photo of the building, and as you can see, none of the double hung windows have divided lights. Today, about a 1/3 of them do, where they have been replaced over the years.

 

[Higgins]

Re: Massive window jog

Wow, you have an ambitious project to undertake. Wish you well going forward.

Yrs ago we were involved in a building rehab in, IL that was in a historic district.

They had a historic commission to oversaw every detail of the old building, and were a real pain in the *** to deal with. So the outside of the buildings windows and trim were left alone, and the interior was upgraded.

Fast forward 15 yrs, member of the historic committee had changed a number of buildings were torn down as they had fallen into decay. Then some of the commercial buildings in the HD were allowed to install Aluminum framed windows.

By then, Pella was able to manufacture custom windows for the job, and were made to look identical to the original windows. Amazing how time and technology changes things!

If the town has an Historic Committee, you need to discuss what your plans are up front and get then signed onto the project. Otherwise your going to hit a cement wall, and not go any further.

Good Luck with your project !!! - AL

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Re: Massive window jog

Yes, we have a Historic Preservation Commission. I am the chair, so I am intimately familiar with the process.

My architecht suggested to me list night that we get with Pella as well as Andersen.

BTW, I just noticed; can a mod change the title from Massive Window jog to "job". Doh!

 

[Falcon67]

Re: Massive window jog

I can tell you about Andersen that we put in our house - the windows come with a sticker on the parts. Build a database and write them all in including locations. We did not - BIG MISTAKE. We have a failed panel and Anderson won't talk to us. Hell, it took 20 phone calls to get someone to even answer the phone. Our plan for this window is to bite a big bullet and have it replaced (hugh double window, master BR) with something from a $$$ local company so we have someone to ***** at should we have problems. We also had panels damaged during delivery and had to reorder using fresh sticker numbers, and at least one of the panels had to be ordered twice because it was mis-configured. I'm a sample size of one, but I'll never use Anderson for anything in the future.

 

[nutjob]

Re: Massive window jog

Not sure if this helps but JLC just had an article on Replacement Windows for Old Brick Veneer Walls

https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/exteriors/replacement-windows-for-old-brick-veneer-walls_o

Kevin

 

[Falcon67]

Re: Massive window jog

That's how the old aluminum windows came out of our brick house - heat gun to remove the large panes from the frame, cut center braces and remove the lower sash, run a box cutter around the interior to break paint/caulk from the window frame and protect the drywall, cut the lower part of the frame, grab the frame with big water pump pliers on the outside and yank it the hell out. Real easy. Sit new frame in opening, shim and screw to studs or wall blocking, install new panes, caulk, done.

 

[Higgins]

Re: Massive window jog

Yes, we have a Historic Preservation Commission. I am the chair, so I am intimately familiar with the process.

My architecht suggested to me list night that we get with Pella as well as Andersen.

BTW, I just noticed; can a mod change the title from Massive Window jog to "job". Doh!

Well that is great news!!!!!!

Having dealt with both Pella and Anderson in the past can be hit or miss. They have both had their problems for both commercial and residential jobs. It all boils down to the local rep. and who the sub contractor is. I'll take it one step further, as it depends on who the individual installer is!

We are currently installing a custom slider french door in a 3rd floor Master BR on a small deck. If everything goes well, will give them another patio door project, before replacing our wall of ten windows.

 

[chaosracing]

Re: Massive window jog

Might want to include Marvin and Jeld Wen on that list as well. Does not hurt to look around since there are many companies out there.

 

[Bert_]

Re: Massive window jog

Bert looking at that building, painting the 143 windows won't be a 'little maintenance'.

And replacing them all is somehow less work and expense?

Window salesmen must be pretty good because I don't understand how removing and replacing an entire window with new every 30 years is somehow better than a little maintenance every ten years.

I have NEVER seen a replacement window that has the same visual appeal of wood window.

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

Re: Massive window jog

With the size of that project, I'd put it out to bid with spec's.

If you want to do the homework- fine. But, I strongly suggest getting with an architect so you can see and understand all materials suggested by the architect. I personally wouldn't use composite. Composite performance has been well documented on decks, wouldn't want the same poor performance for a window on a project like that.

I would also question the reason for replacement- are the windows in "restorable" condition? Is it a energy efficiency thing? Or is it just a "maintenance thing"?

If replacement is the answer to most of those "problems"- and the scope/size of the project- I'd spec a dyed (dark green) PVC clad exterior, to include jamb, sill, and molding. The interior Ponderosa pine. Low-E glass.

I'm sure there's a manufacturer out there that would want the project- and you can certainly negotiate a price with some advertisement/media due to the historical significance.

Good luck-

 

[e36jon]

Re: Massive window jog

Wow, that is some massive project!

I may have a lead on colored cement siding:

https://www.nichiha.com/product/illumination

Apologies in advance if this is a waste of your time. I live in San Francisco and these panels are being used more and more on new construction, including national park buildings on the cliffs overlooking the ocean. Ten years on everything looks as-new for the projects I see on a regular basis. As others have said, for a project of this scale you can probably get a custom run of any color you want.

Best of luck!

Jon

 

[AJHUTCHESON]

Pella Windows and Doors in OKC would be able to assist you with this.

 

[Dr Klaun]

As an architect that has worked on many historic buildings with window replacements, I highly recommend a custom aluminum clad wood unit. Most of the main manufactures can produce these. In central Oregon, Jeld-Wen is made right here and their windows can be detailed to be spot on. Marvin, Weathershield, Pella and Anderson all can produce similar spec's. A few other thoughts:
- There are no more new old-growth wood windows. You get finger jointed wood that ends us moving enough in expansion / contraction that the paint always cracks at those joints. Replacing with wood would be noble, but the long term costs for maintenance will be needed ($$$$) and maintenance after a time usually ends up being neglected.
- There are no "100 year" products for this application. Even fiberglass will weather over time, as will the finish on the aluminum, but they can be painted once their factory coatings are compromised.
- The Kynar based finishes that can be spec'd on aluminum can have up to a 40 year life with warranty. This is the same finished used on higher end metal siding and panels used on high rises. You noted that these will be hunter green. That is a dark color that will weather out quickly due to UV exposure if done with standard paint.
- The glazing can play a key role in the historic look as well. The Low-E coatings can give off a purple sheen when seen in the glare which the current plate glass does not. Using insulated units will be a must for having some control on your energy costs.
-I would also look at using sheet metal fabricated sill plans with end dams to except jamb flashing and not rely on other products. The industry has standard details for weatherization at various wall types. Talk with the window manufacturer you plan to use and get these developed!

Good luck with your restoration! It's a beautiful looking building with a great history!

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Thanks to all for the input. I am setting up meetings with reps from more than one company.

Someone asked about restoring the old windows. There may be 10 out of 143 that are restorable. This building has been in disrepair for so many decades. We took title from the Oklahoma Historical Society who has owned it since 1975. However, they did not have funds to do the building justice. They were able to have the first floor and the basement open as a museum starting in the 80's. Sadly, the top two floors have not been used since the 60's. Most all of the windows were boarded up.... from the INSIDE. That means all of the water getting past the windows still got past the windows and cause further damage to inside sills and wood work. Horrible amatuer attempts at "restoration" were attempted over the years by many very well meaning individuals. (I am hoping they don't read this and get offended.... but the bottom line is, by not doing it correctly, more damage resulted.) Like most state agencies in OK, their funding was cut almost in half after 2008. It is a long (but very intersting story how we got involved, but beyond the scope of this thread. Thankfully, OHS is very supportive of our efforts.

When we got title in the summer of 2018, I had to run about 30 - 40 pigeons out of the building; then board up all the holes where they were getting in. The GOOD news is that OHS did spend a lot of money replacing the roof, as well as adding on a wing that accommodated handicap access. So, the MAIN avenue of water intrusion has been addressed. We still have water coming in the windows. After a recent 80 mph storm, my wife and I boarded up an additional 8 windows. We do not have the equipment to do anything other than the temporary solution of boarding from the inside on the upper floors. On the basement and first floor level, any windows I have boarded up have been done from the outside using plywood with good primer and paint. At least that is stopping further damage.

I do have some 100 year old Douglas Fir (I think I mentioned it earleri) from another building I am salvaging, but not nearly enough to build all of these windows. I don't even have enough to replicate 143 inside window sills.

THAT is why we are looking at replacement. We are holding our first big fundraiser April 21, and I am hopeful that we will raise enought to at least replace windows. The Lt. Gov. of Oklahoma has jumped on our bandwagon, and is lending a lot of support for fundraising. We are a brand new non profit so large Foundations will not even look at a grant application until we have a three year history, i.e. summer 2021. In the meantime, we are raising money the best we can. Like I said, OHS is very supportive, and is in fact, co-hosting our fundraiser.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Lynn,

Good luck with your endeavor,

I have a soft spot for old buildings on the prairie as well. I am a bit north of you in Hutchinson Kansas, I have been involved with several turn of the 20th century buildings here. The first thing I would encourage you to do is generate and complete a seismic plan. I have seen significant issues with earthquakes here in Kansas in the last few years. The 1994 Northridge earthquake was centered 4 miles from my shop at the time a 16K block building. In both that quake and the ones here the walls pulled away from the roof.

Your building is a grand old dame, it would be a tragedy if a quake rendered your effort moot.

Steve

 

[Honkey84]

Re: Massive window jog

And replacing them all is somehow less work and expense?

Window salesmen must be pretty good because I don't understand how removing and replacing an entire window with new every 30 years is somehow better than a little maintenance every ten years.

I have NEVER seen a replacement window that has the same visual appeal of wood window.

I agree with Bert here. Replacement windows will never have the same presents as traditional style window. Shadow lines will not be the same with the muttons on the glazed panels.

Wood framed windows can be repaired and have hundreds of years of service. New double hung windows are designed to fail and be replaced.

 

[Bert_]

Thanks to all for the input. I am setting up meetings with reps from more than one company.

Someone asked about restoring the old windows. There may be 10 out of 143 that are restorable. This building has been in disrepair for so many decades. We took title from the Oklahoma Historical Society who has owned it since 1975. However, they did not have funds to do the building justice. They were able to have the first floor and the basement open as a museum starting in the 80's. Sadly, the top two floors have not been used since the 60's. Most all of the windows were boarded up.... from the INSIDE. That means all of the water getting past the windows still got past the windows and cause further damage to inside sills and wood work. Horrible amatuer attempts at "restoration" were attempted over the years by many very well meaning individuals. (I am hoping they don't read this and get offended.... but the bottom line is, by not doing it correctly, more damage resulted.) Like most state agencies in OK, their funding was cut almost in half after 2008. It is a long (but very intersting story how we got involved, but beyond the scope of this thread. Thankfully, OHS is very supportive of our efforts.

When we got title in the summer of 2018, I had to run about 30 - 40 pigeons out of the building; then board up all the holes where they were getting in. The GOOD news is that OHS did spend a lot of money replacing the roof, as well as adding on a wing that accommodated handicap access. So, the MAIN avenue of water intrusion has been addressed. We still have water coming in the windows. After a recent 80 mph storm, my wife and I boarded up an additional 8 windows. We do not have the equipment to do anything other than the temporary solution of boarding from the inside on the upper floors. On the basement and first floor level, any windows I have boarded up have been done from the outside using plywood with good primer and paint. At least that is stopping further damage.

I do have some 100 year old Douglas Fir (I think I mentioned it earleri) from another building I am salvaging, but not nearly enough to build all of these windows. I don't even have enough to replicate 143 inside window sills.

THAT is why we are looking at replacement. We are holding our first big fundraiser April 21, and I am hopeful that we will raise enought to at least replace windows. The Lt. Gov. of Oklahoma has jumped on our bandwagon, and is lending a lot of support for fundraising. We are a brand new non profit so large Foundations will not even look at a grant application until we have a three year history, i.e. summer 2021. In the meantime, we are raising money the best we can. Like I said, OHS is very supportive, and is in fact, co-hosting our fundraiser.

Thanks again for the input.

If the sashes are completely gone then unfortunately your probably right that replacement is one of the only options. New wood sashes can be made but they won't last like the old growth stuff.

There are plenty of resources out there for historic buildings but be careful. Out of all the major window manufacturers Marvin is the only one that I could recommend.

 

[greg13]

With an order of 150 windows, I think any company would make them whatever color you want.

Do the math, $300 (ball park) x150. $45,000 is hard to walk away from.

 

[fitter30]

One problem that hasn't been talked about is the lead paint on the old frames and disposal of them and the dust. This sounds like a job for general commercial contractor that has the experience of dealing with a restoration of this size.

 

[Blue]

Horrible amatuer attempts at "restoration" were attempted over the years by many very well meaning individuals. (I am hoping they don't read this and get offended.... but the bottom line is, by not doing it correctly, more damage resulted.)

Details and/or pictures? Always amazed at what good (and not-so-good) can come from well-meaning volunteers....

 

[nadogail]

Hardi Corp, sells a saw blade for their Hardi Plank.

FWIW, 2 or 3 years ago I replaced a perimeter wall around a property. It had been originally built with redwood shiplap on a fir frame. The frame was the problem and we were unable to salvage the redwood.

I chose to replace the termite eaten fir with pressure treated from Home Depot. The redwood was replaced with Hardi Plank. From a short distance it looks original. Paint has adhered well.

 

[Kevin54]

Maybe stand tall and tell the historic district to get off their high horses and let them figure out where to get the windows. They're wanting to call the shots on something that YOU are wanting to restore with no input. Your organization is the one wanting to restore the building. What would happen if you told them to stick it and would walk away from the project? Could they figure out how to save the building? Tell them that you are going to put some energy efficient windows in and piss on the color.

 

[Odd-job]

Historic districts always make things tough. Actually don’t have anything value added to add other than this is a cool building and it’s great GJ members seem to know their stuff around this and are willing to offer their input.

With all the hoops that need to be jumped through here hope some historic tax credits courtesy of the federal government are being put to good use here.

 

[longez]

I work for a manufacturer that supplies most of the companies listed in this thread with their door and window hardware. I am our liaison to AAMA (American Architectural Manufacturers Association), which has now become FGIA (Fenestration and Glass Industry Alliance) after merging with IGMA. I just returned Friday from a FGIA technical conference with all of these manufacturers; my advice is to listen very carefully to Dr Klaun... he's got it right.

https://aamanet.org/

 

[RivennHewn]

I’ve done a few buildings similar to this.

As important as the windows you select, is hiring an envelope engineer to detail your water intrusion plan.

Hire one that does frequent site visits and quality control.

 

[RivennHewn]

Maybe stand tall and tell the historic district to get off their high horses and let them figure out where to get the windows. They're wanting to call the shots on something that YOU are wanting to restore with no input. Your organization is the one wanting to restore the building. What would happen if you told them to stick it and would walk away from the project? Could they figure out how to save the building? Tell them that you are going to put some energy efficient windows in and piss on the color.

There are tax incentives involved with playing nice with the historic society

 

[HotrodHR]

I'm not sure where you're using hardiplank on this building. That said it may be worth the investment to hire an expert in restoration for some upfront consulting on your project. If you could bundle all the expertise on the GJ into one person you'd have it made.

Good luck on your project

 

[UTRockhound]

Thanks for all the expertise presented in this thread. I learned quite a bit in advance of my home and shop construction and being a history nut dig the subject matter.

 

[UTRockhound]

I recommend checking out the website for the project for a great video with details. Kudos to the OP for taking this on.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Historic tax credits are not an option for our project. To qualify for those credits, you have to be a tax payer. As a 501(c)(3) we do not pay income tax, and therefore do not qualify. We just need to bite the bullet and start raising money. Being a brand new non-profit really limits us. I honestly believe that we will EVENTUALLY be able to secure some big $$$ grants from big foundations. However, we just got title to the building in the summer of 2018. Before those foundations will even accept an application from us, we need a three year track record. That is why most of what we are doing is being done with volunteer labor.

Our first big fundraiser is April 21. I have personally recruited 7 corporate sponsors so far, and have a lot of work left to do in the next three weeks. Of course one of those corp sponsors is my own law office. We are hoping to raise enough at the April fundraiser to get at least the basement and first floor windows done. If we raise enough to go up the next two floors, all the better. Oklahoma's Lt. Gov. has jumped on our band wagon and is one of the featured speakers at our fundraiser. We have some stellar board members (especially our chair) working hard on this. We have great financial controls in place (just not much in the way of finances... yet). We should be able to put together a good track record over the first three years.

Couple of other things:

Yes, we have determined as an organization that we must use modern glass. Otherwise we will never be able to heat and cool the building. Fortunately, the historic preservation ordinance plainly states that "modern glass may be used". We just need to make the windows look as authentic as possible.

Also, someone mentioned "brick veneer". This building isn't veneer. Neither is our house. I have an old thread on here somewhere about our journey updating our home which is right next door. On our home, the walls are 19.5 inches thick..... all brick. There is no framing in the walls.