Master Force India

[OzarkMan]

This thing was made in India. Crazy.

I'm ok with Taiwanese made tools mainly since they *seem* much better made/quality control. Of course prefer American made but my paycheck doesn't go that far. I guess everything is so Global now that things seem made decently enough across the board.

 

[neophyte]

C'mon, folks! India was making steel while Europe was still casting bronze tools and weapons. Woot steel made some of the finest weapons in the world for a long, long time. It was the original Damascus Steel. India makes nuclear reactors and weapons. India has a successful space program.

You don't think they can make a decent end wrench?

When I turned 16 back in the dim ages of the world (color hadn't made it to TVs yet), my father bought me a tool set so I could wrench on my own rigs. Most of them were made in India. I still have a few and they've given good service for over fifty years of wrenching.

Of course, any country is still capable of producing cheap ****... including the US. Our junk tools are just more expensive.

What industry was being done 1,000+ years ago, hardly concerns what the current industry is like, unless there has been a long continuous process of keeping the techniques around, and the understanding of the processes and materials around.
Supposedly, the original “crucible/wootz” steel process, was replaced from production in India, by the British, because the process was mot capable of producing large quantities of steel, which were needed for industries like the railroads, for engines and track.
There is a separate theory, that the original “wootz/Damascus” alloys needed iron sand with particular alloying elements, and when that particular iron sand used ran out, the remaining iron sand lacked the additional elements that produced the necessary alloys to produce genuine wootz steel.
There are certainly niche industries that have survived, this might be one of the niche industries.

Meet one of the only families keeping the ancient secret to making this perfect mirror alive

Aranmula kannadi is a sacred mirror made only in the Indian town of Aranmula. The formula for the reflective alloy has been kept secret for centuries.

www.businessinsider.com

Aranmula kannadi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I suspect if Western metallurgists wanted to reverse engineer the alloy and techniques, they could do so relatively easily, and “distortion free” mirrors, madd using other techniques are readily made in the ISA, and Europe, and Japan, etc. using other techniques.
As for actually making things from metal, to “quality industrial standards” a manufacturer nit only needs to be capable of doing so, but capable of doing so in high volumes, at close to, or under the cost of doing so in the USA, or Europe, or some other industrialized country.
Sometimes the lower cost is achieved simply by lower labor costs.
Other times it is achieved by developing a manufacturing system that is highly efficient and functional.
China and Taiwan in a number of cases has managed to develop innovative tools, (at least hand tools), and then managed to make those tools efficiently, yo high standards, although a large amount of poorly made **** is still coming out of with countries. (The Project Farm video released today shows both).
Japan has done likewise.
Weather the same will be true of India, has yet to be determined.
Nicholson sent their file manufacturing to Mexico, and the resulting files were unusable ****. File making was, and is, hardly a secret technology, with numerous manufacturers in the USA that used to do so, and write ups on the manufacturing techniques. I suspect in the Nicholson File case, production steps were skipped to lower costs, resulting in the bad files.
Nicholson later moved production to other countries in South and Central America. Whether this will happen in India with tools produced there is the question.
JK Files, located in India, is now the World’s largest file manufacturer, and supposedly the files are fine for general use. JK Files is however owned by an Billionaire Indian industrialist involved in the textile industry, So there are deep pockets behind the brand.

 

[four.cycle]

^ JK is huge.
JK / JK Files India Ltd., New Hind House, N.M. Marg, Ballard Estate, Mumbai, 400 001, Maharashtra, India / https://jksuperdrive.com/ / est. /

There's an outfit in Portugal that is supposed to be making a decent file
Tome Feteira / Tome Feteira, S.A., Apartado 1, 2431-909, Vieira de Leiria, Portugal / https://tomefeteira.com/ / files, rasps, saws / https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...portuguese-tool-manufacturing-company.523659/ /

As to distribution here, I have no clue.

There's another file maker in Colombia that is supplying a number of other companies:

Empresa Andina de Herramientes S.A., Cali, Colombia / files, rasps, edge tools / successor to Kearney & Foot of Paterson, NJ / suppliers to Atkins, Nicholson, Collins, Atila /

As with the Tome Feteira, I have no clue about distribution here in the U.S.

When's the last time anyone here posted a review of a Colombian-made Nicholson file?

 

[Jack_K]

I'd much rather it was made in China than India. I have some Gedore spanners from back when they made some in India. Many of them broke when new.

 

[CoThG]

I'd much rather it was made in China than India. I have some Gedore spanners from back when they made some in India. Many of them broke when new.

 

[finn]

I'd much rather it was made in China than India. I have some Gedore spanners from back when they made some in India. Many of them broke when new.

News flash….It’s not 1982 anymore.

Both Deere and Kubota manufacture tractors in India. They have had a successful space program since 1969, and have 25 nuclear reactors in 7 nuclear power plants.

They are the world’s second largest steel producer. The US is fourth. India makes almost double what we do.

 

[four.cycle]

^ And the United States population is only one fourth the population of India.

Why does this myth persist that they cannot manage to manufacture something as simple as a wrench?

 

[neophyte]

News flash….It’s not 1982 anymore.

Both Deere and Kubota manufacture tractors in India. They have had a successful space program since 1969, and have 25 nuclear reactors in 7 nuclear power plants.

They are the world’s second largest steel producer. The US is fourth. India makes almost double what we do.

Being one if the world’s largest steel producers, foes not mean the steel is top notch, or that goods produced in “small quantities” will be produced well.
Even back when the USA was one of the world’s major steel producers, there were still tools being made in the USA that were “****”.
Sometimes the tools were “****” because the tools were made to be as cheap as possible, and used both bad steel, and were very poorly made and finished.
In other cases, those “****” tools, were made from decent steel, and the issue was manufacturing technique, and really poor or non existent finishing, making tools that barely functioned.
The Indian made wrenches from decades ago that gave Gedore a bad reputation in the USA might have simply been made from **** steel, because there was not a good source for quality steel in India at the time. (Or maybe decent steel was sent over but switched out).
India may have access to decent steel nowadays.
There is more to manufacturing quality tools than just the steel.
The tools need to be forged from the quality steel, using an appropriate manufacturing process.
The steel needs to then have finishing steps such as machining and broaching done properly, using appropriate methods and decent tooling.
The tools also need to be heat treated and tempered well, and then the plating needs to be done properly, with the necessary cleaning and plating steps.
India likely has an advantage over the USA in some ways to less environmental regulations, that can allow older, highly effective manufacturing processes, that may be practically impossible or highly costly to use in the USA nowadays.
As has been mentioned there are examples of Indian made wrenches, that looked great, but which had hardness tests done indicating the wrench may never have been put thru a hardening process.
A wrench, made from quality steel, and broached properly, will still never be a high quality product, if the blank never gets hardened and tempered, although the wrench may work fine for a while.
The big question would be whether the hardening process was skipped to lower costs, intentionally, or whether it was just some accident of pulling unhardened blanks from a warehouse, rather than hardened ones.

As far as tractors go, India is also one of the major manufacturers of welded steel bench vises, and being able to make tractors, which have a large number of cut steel sheet metal parts that are welded together, and being able to make steel bench vises using similar processes, is much more applicable, than being able forge and broach a precision wrench blank, and then garden the wrench blank for maximum strength.

 

[four.cycle]

^ You might want to take the time to look at a few websites of Indian tool manufacturers. They're not making wrenches in garages using charcoal-fired forges any more.

I haven't really delved into this much, but this is what I've come up with over the course of a few days. Some of you seem absolutely convinced that they are not capable of producing an acceptable product. I would consider that a condition called "myopia".

List of Manufacturers and Brands of Mechanics Hand Tools Manufactured in India (NOT necessarily complete)

Aegon /

Ajay / Ajay Tools Pvt. Ltd., Ajay Nagar, behind Industrial Estate, near Pathankot Bye Pass Road, Ajay Nagar, Div Colony, Industrial Development Colony, Jalandhar, Nurpur, Punjab 144008, India / https://ajayind.com/ / est. 1973 /

Akar / Akar Auto Industries Ltd., Akar Tools Ltd., E-5, M.I.D.C. Area, Waluj, Aurangabad 431 136, Maharashtra, India / https://www.akartoolsltd.com/# / est. 1989 /

Alok / Alok International Pvt. Ltd., Plot No. 264, Udyog Vihar, Phase-IV, Gurugram 122016, Haryana, India / https://www.aloktools.com/ / est. 1978 /

Ambay / Ambay Tools Co., No. 138, Dada Colony, Industrial Area, Jalandhar, 144004, Punjab, India / est. 1995 inc. Oct 10 1995 / "Hugo" "Oscar" /

Ashoka / Ashoka / wrench /

Centech / Centech / knock-off of "Cen-Tech" name on wrench / see Cen-Tech, see Daido Corp. /

Deeps / Deeps Tools Pvt. Ltd., Works:320-321, Industrial Area-A, Ludhiana-141003, India / https://www.deepstools.com/ / est. 1979 /

De Neers / De Neers Tools, 468, FIE, Patparganj Industrial Area, Delhi-110092, India (office), Plot No. 8A, Site 4, Industrial Area, Sahibabad Industrial Area, Ghaziabad, Uttar Pradesh, 201010 India (works) / https://deneerstools.com/ / est. 1952 /

Eastman / Eastman Cast & Forge Ltd., GT Road. Near Airport, Ludhiana, 141120 Punjab, India / https://eastmanhandtools.com/ / est. 1990 /

Electrex /

Endico / Endico Power Tools / est. 1994 /

Foxwoll /

Gedore / Gedore, India /

GMC / GMC Tools see Kastek India, Jalandhar, India /

Groz / Groz Engineering Tools Ltd., India /

HRI / H.R. Industries, C-107/108, Focal Point, Extension, 144004, Focal Point, Jalandhar, Punjab 144008, India / https://www.hritools.com/ / est. 1952 /

Hugo / Hugo, Industrial Enclave, Gali No 9, Near Krishna Rubber Industry, Randhawa Masanda, Jalandhar, 144004 Punjab, India / https://hugotools.com/ / est. 1995 / see Ambay Tools Co., Jalandhar, India /

Inder / Inder Industries / est. 1958 /

JCBL / JCBL India Private Ltd., Plot No.580, Industrial Area, Phase- 9, Sector 66, Sahibzada Ajit Singh Nagar, Punjab 160059, India / https://jcblhandtools.com/ / est. 1989 /

JF / JF Tools, Block 1, Kapurthala Road, Jalandhar, 144013 India / https://jftoolsindia.com/ / est. 1947 /

Jhalani / Jhalani / wrench /

JK / JK Files India Ltd., New Hind House, N.M. Marg, Ballard Estate, Mumbai, 400 001, Maharashtra, India / https://jksuperdrive.com/ / est. /

Josch /

Kastek / Kastek D-118, Focal Point Extension, Jalandhar, Punjab 144004, India / https://www.gmctoolsindia.com/ / est. 1948 (as Guru Nanak Mercantile Company) /

Magadh / Magadh Hand Tools / est. 1979 /

Masterforce / Masterforce / manufactured in India for Menards, Inc., Eau Claire, WI /

Oscar / Oscar see Hugo Tools Co., see Ambay Tool Co., Jalandhar, India /

Osho / Osho Tools Pvt. Ltd., Chandgarh Road, Sahibana–Jiandiali Link, Jandiali, Punjab 141112 India / / https://www.oshotools.com/ / est. 1969 / see also Venus Industrial Corp., Ludhiana, India /

Ozar / Ozar see Alok International Pvt. Ltd., Gurugram, India /

Prime / Prime Tools & Equipments Pvt. Ltd., Prime House: B-7/A, Acharya Niketan, Mayur Vihar Phase-I, Delhi 110091, India / https://www.primetoolsindia.com/ / est. 2009 /

Rothenberger / Rothenberger India Pvt. Ltd., Plot # 17, Sector 37, Pace City 1, Gurgaon, Haryana, India / https://www.rothenberger.in/en/ /

Solsons / Solsons Exim., 16, Panchratna Industrial Estate, Changodar, Ahmedabad - 382210, India / http://www.solsons.com/ / est. 1982 /

Stanley Black & Decker / Stanley Black & Decker /

Taparia / Taparia Tools Ltd., A-2/423-424, Shah & Nahar, Lower Parel West, Mumbai, Maharashtra - 400013, India / / est. 1965 / pliers /

Tata Agrico / Tata Agrico / est. 1925 /

Torque Master / Torque Master, Mohali, Punjab / est. 2002 /

Varindera / Varindera Tools Pvt. Ltd., Village Warayana, Road, adjoining Leather Complex, Sangal Sohal, Jalandhar, Punjab 144002, India / https://www.varinderatools.com/ / est. 1984 /

Venus / Venus Industrial Corp., 424, Industrial Area "A", Ludhiana, 141003 India / https://www.venustools.com/ / https://www.venusforge.in/ / est. 1969 / see also Osho Tools Pvt. Ltd., Jandiali, India /

Vishal / Vishal Tools & Forgings Pvt. Ltd., B-9, Focal Point Extension, Jalandhar, Punjab 144004, India / https://vishaltools.com/ / est.

==

 

[finn]

Being one if the world’s largest steel producers, foes not mean the steel is top notch, or that goods produced in “small quantities” will be produced well.
Even back when the USA was one of the world’s major steel producers, there were still tools being made in the USA that were “****”.
Sometimes the tools were “****” because the tools were made to be as cheap as possible, and used both bad steel, and were very poorly made and finished.
In other cases, those “****” tools, were made from decent steel, and the issue was manufacturing technique, and really poor or non existent finishing, making tools that barely functioned.
The Indian made wrenches from decades ago that gave Gedore a bad reputation in the USA might have simply been made from **** steel, because there was not a good source for quality steel in India at the time. (Or maybe decent steel was sent over but switched out).
India may have access to decent steel nowadays.
There is more to manufacturing quality tools than just the steel.
The tools need to be forged from the quality steel, using an appropriate manufacturing process.
The steel needs to then have finishing steps such as machining and broaching done properly, using appropriate methods and decent tooling.
The tools also need to be heat treated and tempered well, and then the plating needs to be done properly, with the necessary cleaning and plating steps.
India likely has an advantage over the USA in some ways to less environmental regulations, that can allow older, highly effective manufacturing processes, that may be practically impossible or highly costly to use in the USA nowadays.
As has been mentioned there are examples of Indian made wrenches, that looked great, but which had hardness tests done indicating the wrench may never have been put thru a hardening process.
A wrench, made from quality steel, and broached properly, will still never be a high quality product, if the blank never gets hardened and tempered, although the wrench may work fine for a while.
The big question would be whether the hardening process was skipped to lower costs, intentionally, or whether it was just some accident of pulling unhardened blanks from a warehouse, rather than hardened ones.

As far as tractors go, India is also one of the major manufacturers of welded steel bench vises, and being able to make tractors, which have a large number of cut steel sheet metal parts that are welded together, and being able to make steel bench vises using similar processes, is much more applicable, than being able forge and broach a precision wrench blank, and then garden the wrench blank for maximum strength.

I think the point is that you can’t dismiss any product out of hand simply because it’s not manufactured in the US. That’s a pretty myopic viewpoint, in my opinion.

AcelorMittal Nipon Steel India, (AM/NS), for example is a joint venture of Luxembourg based AcelorMittal, which also has a strong presence in the US and Canada. There’s no reasonable reason to think that the steel they produce in India, Bosnia , Brazil, or South Africa is inherently inferior to the steel they produce in Alabama or Texas.

You’re also conveniently ignoring India’s space program and nuclear programs, both of which exhibit a lot more technical demands than a simple wrench.

Like others, I still recall the crappy quality that was implied when anything had a Made in Japan sticker on it. That changed in my mind when I got my first transistor radio in the early sixties.

 

[four.cycle]

^ There is absolutely no reason to believe that India will not in the near future become a major player in the hand tool industry.
Dismissing them out of hand is simply refusing to live in the present, which is just nuts.
The guys running these outfits aren't stupid, or short-sighted: they're in for the long game, and they know they're up against stiff competition from the U.S., Germany, Taiwan, Spain, Vietnam, and China.
Click on any of those links in my post just above, and find the "About Us" tab and do some reading.
Products all "meet or exceed" all those hard-to-pronounce international standards.
Equipment being used is current era stuff.
Owners of a couple of these companies are among the wealthiest men on the planet. You really believe they don't know what they're doing?

 

[neophyte]

I think the point is that you can’t dismiss any product out of hand simply because it’s not manufactured in the US. That’s a pretty myopic viewpoint, in my opinion.

AcelorMittal Nipon Steel India, (AM/NS), for example is a joint venture of Luxembourg based AcelorMittal, which also has a strong presence in the US and Canada. There’s no reasonable reason to think that the steel they produce in India, Bosnia , Brazil, or South Africa is inherently inferior to the steel they produce in Alabama or Texas.

You’re also conveniently ignoring India’s space program and nuclear programs, both of which exhibit a lot more technical demands than a simple wrench.

Like others, I still recall the crappy quality that was implied when anything had a Made in Japan sticker on it. That changed in my mind when I got my first transistor radio in the early sixties.

Yes, you should not outright dismiss Indian made tools as being “inherent junk”.

You should also not consider Indian made tools as “high quality” because India has space and Nuclear programs.

Pakistan has a Nuclear program, and one can easily look up Pakistani manufacturing videos on Youtube.
Pakistani manufacturing videos are the reason the satiric term “safety sandals” exists.

The US nuclear program supposedly had components, made from uranium or other toxic metals, machined in small machine shops, with those machine shops then contaminating local streams with the same toxic metals.

As for Japanese tools formerly having a reputation for being ****, even Toshio Odate, the author who basically wrote the best English language book on Japanese tools, has said that there were plenty of **** tools being sold to carpenters in Japan for years after WWII.
I have seen some of those tools come up for sale on eBay.
I’m fairly certain the major US sellers of Japanese Woodworking tools, such as Japan Woodworker, and Hida Tool, either refused to buy those low quality tools, or have distributors that supplied them who refused to supply ****.

Long Island Indicator used to have reviews of the precision instruments on the market, and one of the past reviews basically said that there were one or two quality brands of Calipers that were made in China, and the reason those existed was because the Chinese Government needed quality metrology equipment for their aerospace program, so a manufacturer was set up to make the quality metrology equipment.
Most of the affordable metrology brands that were made in China, and being sold to the average consumer, were still **** though.

 

[finn]

Yes, you should not outright dismiss Indian made tools as being “inherent junk”.

You should also not consider Indian made tools as “high quality” because India has space and Nuclear programs.

Pakistan has a Nuclear program, and one can easily look up Pakistani manufacturing videos on Youtube.
Pakistani manufacturing videos are the reason the satiric term “safety sandals” exists.

The US nuclear program supposedly had components, made from uranium or other toxic metals, machined in small machine shops, with those machine shops then contaminating local streams with the same toxic metals.

As for Japanese tools formerly having a reputation for being ****, even Toshio Odate, the author who basically wrote the best English language book on Japanese tools, has said that there were plenty of **** tools being sold to carpenters in Japan for years after WWII.
I have seen some of those tools come up for sale on eBay.
I’m fairly certain the major US sellers of Japanese Woodworking tools, such as Japan Woodworker, and Hida Tool, either refused to buy those low quality tools, or have distributors that supplied them who refused to supply ****.

Long Island Indicator used to have reviews of the precision instruments on the market, and one of the past reviews basically said that there were one or two quality brands of Calipers that were made in China, and the reason those existed was because the Chinese Government needed quality metrology equipment for their aerospace program, so a manufacturer was set up to make the quality metrology equipment.
Most of the affordable metrology brands that were made in China, and being sold to the average consumer, were still **** though.

Nobody said the existence of a nuclear or space program equates to all tools imported from India or any other country is guaranteed being high quality. Those programs do support the fact that theres a strong likelihood that the technology does exist, though .

You can’t make the case that every tool ever produced in the US was always a work of art, either. We made a lot of junk at the same time we were putting a man on the moon fifty years ago.

As far as the Chinese metrology equipment goes, what’s the point? Equipment is made to different standards all the time, depending on market precision and economic demands. I don’t have a $20000 refrigerator in my kitchen when my budget allows for $3200 max. That doesn’t make my $3200 refrigerator ****, though. I would bet that the “high quality” metrology equipment available here was made possible by government Mil Standards, the same as China.

 

[Etchase]

Gedore became what it is largely because of its first venture as a multinational in India. 50% bigger than both of its main competitors in Germany. It did not give up on its India operation, which was a major success in the domestic market it was meant to support, but also enjoyed tremendous success internationally including the US. Gedore didn’t give up their Indian operation, they were kicked out, as were all non-Indian operations as a response to the Bhopal disaster in 1984. Bahco pulled out for the same reason. Making generalizations based on anecdotal evidence can sometimes be problematic. India probably makes more wrenches today in a week than Snap On does in a year.

 

[zendriver]

Just a guess, but India could probably make tools and beautiful and stout as Snap On, but why would they?

Like China, their roots will always proceed their perception today, so their products will be perceived as "junk" by many here in this country, regardless. They can make/market affordable tool products elsewhere in the world and do just fine.

 

[BobsYourUncle69]

Interesting. Next time I’m at Menards, I think I’ll pick some up, just to try them.

I agree with FourCycle, that as wages rise in China, production will eventually shift to India and then, eventually Africa.

Look at Textiles. Production went from England to the Northeastern US, then the South, Then the Pacific Rim, and now India.

Steel did roughly the same thing. No reason to think tools and consumer goods won’t follow

Those wages would have to raise a hell of a lot to make African manufacturing cheaper. In South Africa , buying Chinese , Taiwanese and Indian is a cheaper than buying made in SA. A lot of Africa sources its cheaper items from the same place anyone else does and for the same reason , it's cheaper.

Of course this would depend on where in Africa and if one does find a cheaper labour market in one of the countries in Africa .
It would probably be one where china has heavily " invested " in and started collecting on some that debt where they can get away with doing what they do without the regulators shutting them down , so I'd say that excludes sub saharan Africa Countries as they are far too human rights oriented , nigeria too as I think Kenya may also be, so perhaps some countries in west / Central Africa ? But even then , I don't know.
I still think Asia is where it'll stay or maybe South America ? I don't know a lot about South American manufacturing so that one I'm just sucking out of thin air.

 

[four.cycle]

^ South America does have a tool manufacturing industry.

 

[BobsYourUncle69]

^ South America does have a tool manufacturing industry.

I know it has one , I was just wondering if it's an affordable industry to import from like China, India , Vietnam , Taiwan etc once they run dry.

I don't know much about that as I never really see or come across many south American tools.

A lot of Africa too has tool manufacturing , it just isn't as affordable as india , china , Vietnam, Taiwan etc

 

[four.cycle]

^ I have no idea... and the language barrier is something of an obstacle for me when trying to dig up information on out-of-country tool manufacturers. We were importing a huge amount of stuff from South America, but I don't know if that is still the case today.

 

[seber]

I have no doubt that some tools from India are good quality, but every one I've seen has been pure junk. Given the odds, why would you take a chance when you can buy Taiwanese for nearly the same price?

 

[BobsYourUncle69]

The Taiwanese have clearly set out to send a clear message " we are not China " and set the benchmark for quality in certain price ranges. I agree ,stuff made in China and India are still too hit/miss unless it's power tools from a reputable company like Makita who clearly have their guys there making sure standards are met.

As far as Vietnam goes , most of my shoes are made there and I have no quibble over quality but I don't know if it's the same with tools made there.