Matco, GearWrench, COO and such

[Scotty_B]

I DO have a couple of specific questions, but I'm trying to create a little general discussion about tool quality, since I love this board so much.

I definitely fall into the realm of a shade-tree mechanic and home do-it-yourselfer, so that influences my tool purchases. I do things often enough that I want tools that will work and last, but I don't necessarily want or need tool brands that come with convenient replacement/warrantee service provide by the tool trucks.

So, most often, I look for "prosumer" brands or used pro brand tools.

I recently watched some videos of folks testing tools (ratchets, specifically) to their breaking point on YouTube (that's a whole different discussion!), and it got me thinking about a couple of things.

A couple of videos compared the failure point of Taiwanese-made ratchets (GearWrench and Carlyle) to comparable Snap-On ratchets. The Taiwan-made ratchets compared favorably when it comes to failure/reliability.

For the record, I own Taiwan-made ratchets produced by GearWrench (3/8" roto and 1/2" long-handled 120xp flex-head – both solid as hell), Carlyle (1/4 roto – love it!), King Tony (1/2" RHFT - really love it!) and a 1/4" flex-head from TopTul. I also own an old Snap-on 712 bent-handle flex-head (20 teeth, but the least backdrag of any ratchet I own!), an old S-K 3/8 standard and a new S-K short handle (3/8 head in a 1/4 form), and a couple of old Indestro ratchets I bought because they were great deals on eBay and I was feeling sentimental. (They are great ratchets, BTW!) I also bought an old Cornwell 1/4" ratchet, but I lost the bearing when I was cleaning it. I tried to replace it with a 1/8" bearing, but it was too big and I mangled the spring when I tried to use it. I like the feel of it, but I need to replace those parts.

While I'm sure that doesn't compare to many of y'alls collections, I feel it's pretty eclectic.

ANYWAY ... after watching the GearWrench/Snap-on video, I started wondering about a GearWrench/Matco comparison, since it appears their designs are so similar. I've also read, on this board, how Matco 88-tooth rebuild kits fit in a GearWrech 84-T head.

I started Googling, and found that when Apex Tools formed (by Dahner and Cooper merging), they sold off Matco and some other subsidiaries to Fortive.

SO ... QUESTION: is it true that the Matco 88-T rebuild kits STILL fit the GearWrench 84-T heads?

Also, I've seen it noted that GearWrench has shifted production for many of their products to the PRC instead of Taiwan. We could get into a LONG discussion about Chinese production, but my feeling is that it all depends on the quality control and production tolerances of the parent company, not necessarily the COO.

SO ... ANOTHER QUESTION: has anyone noticed a difference in quality between GearWrench products produced in Taiwan and in China? Or a difference in any other products that have shifted manufacturing from Taiwan to PRC?

I've seen discussions about Craftsman products that have shifted to China from Taiwan. Opinions appear to be mixed, but I'm not sure how much of those opinions are based on sentiment or actual usage.

And lastly, I've probably got more ratchets than I will ever use, now, but I feel like I'm missing a long-handled 3/8" ratchet from my collection. That would be the only thing I would consider buying, at this point. Something 12-15", since my roti-head is just over 10" I see it as something desirable, but not necessarily mandatory. I've got sockets in the 1/2" drive range that go down to 10mm. Still, I'm searching for a ridiculous bargain for that 3/8 long-handled ratchet. Possibly flex-head, but not necessarily, since I've got the Snap-On bent-handle.

Any suggestions? Like I've said, it's just a want, not a "need." I keep perusing local pawn shops and watch eBay bids rise to ridiculous levels for what I'm looking for. So far, no luck.

Anyway, thanks to anyone who actually read this entire post. I know it's kind of rambling. But I love the responses by folks on this board.

 

[yamaha0343]

The thing with Chinese manufacturing is you can get great tools or **** tools. They'll build it to whatever price or quality point you want. In Craftsman's case, the quality declines are more about "cheaper! cheaper! cheaper!" than COO.

 

[Scotty_B]

The thing with Chinese manufacturing is you can get great tools or **** tools. They'll build it to whatever price or quality point you want. In Craftsman's case, the quality declines are more about "cheaper! cheaper! cheaper!" than COO.

I think that's the unfortunate thing about Craftsman as a brand. I think they used to be seen as "professional" quality at a consumer's price.

Now, I think they are just seen as a "consumer" product. I don't think quality control is a thing with them, anymore. Might as well be Stanley. And Stanley Black & Decker produces many fine hand tools, just not under the names Stanley and Black & Decker.

It's a shame. I still snap up old Craftsman USA-made sockets when I see them and need them.

 

[JohnDeere1]

I don't see a Matco 88 being any stronger than an 84t GW I own both and aside from 4 teeth and coo of the guts they are the same and it's a proven design.
I would definitely buy a long handle 3/8 as they are my most used and many others it's nice to have the extra leverage I have 4 18" even but those are overkill I prefer about a 12" or so. I also love my SK Roto heads in 3/8 they are 10 1/2" or so I have both designs and love the tuff 1 the best but it was $90 used you can get a snap on for that but I've owned the other 3870 for a decade an it's not let me down once.

 

[oldldh]

Speaking of L-O-N-G 3/8" drive ratchets...

This is the Tekton 18" 3/8" drive 72 tooth Ratchet...

The other photo is the 24" 1/2" and the 18" 3/8" compared...

They are worth the asking price...$27.60 at Amazon...

As I am in my eighth decade, the extra leverage is nice to have...

 

[mikebaker1129]

I have the Matco88,Gearwrench 84,Armstrong 88, Craftsman premium and as already mentioned they are pretty much the same. Same goes for some of the Husky(Apex) offerings from Home Depot.
COO and whether it is quick release or not is the difference.

 

[kythri]

SO ... ANOTHER QUESTION: has anyone noticed a difference in quality between GearWrench products produced in Taiwan and in China? Or a difference in any other products that have shifted manufacturing from Taiwan to PRC?

A lot of folks here on the board claim that there is, but I've yet to see it, and I own a LOT of GearWrench. I think it's less factual and more emotional, personally.

I've seen discussions about Craftsman products that have shifted to China from Taiwan. Opinions appear to be mixed, but I'm not sure how much of those opinions are based on sentiment or actual usage.

Much like the above question, I suspect it's more emotion, less fact. I own a LOT of Craftsman, too, and I won't go out of my way to buy Chinese Craftsman, but I also can't empirically comment on the functionality of the imported Craftsman stuff, only the aesthetics, which on a number of tools are less attractive than the old stuff.

I think that's the unfortunate thing about Craftsman as a brand. I think they used to be seen as "professional" quality at a consumer's price.

Stick around, and you'll find enough posts to the contrary. If you listen to some folks, Craftsman has always been worse than using a stick and a rock to repair your stuff.

I'd certainly stick a fair amount of the US-made Craftsman stuff in my collection up against "professional quality" lines, but, I will admit, there's certainly some more...refined products from some of the "top" tier manufacturers.

Now, I think they are just seen as a "consumer" product. I don't think quality control is a thing with them, anymore. Might as well be Stanley. And Stanley Black & Decker produces many fine hand tools, just not under the names Stanley and Black & Decker.

Not trying to be condescending, but, given your low post count, it's possible you may not lurk a bunch - you have heard that Stanley bought the Craftsman name, yeah?

 

[mspecperformance]

Not entirely sure why everyone is so in love with the 88T or similar deaign. We have used them for years in a pro setting and I went nuts getting all these 88T kits and putbthem in all the ratchets that could take them (GW, armstrong). We have warranties the 88T design more times than I can count. The most robust ratchets we have in service are probably the old 36T mac ratchets and after the snapon 80's. Just an observation. Price is still killer on those GW Ratchets and Yes I did see the torque test vids on GW vs snappy ratchets

 

[Fedwrench]

What were your questions?

I think there is a definite difference in Gearwrench quality levels between PRC made stuff and the older Taiwan made tools. However, I also feel those differences are more noticeable depending on where you bought your tools. An example of this would be the annual Black Friday sales **** hawked by Sears. The special purchase Gearwrench sets are specifically made for the sale and often feature coarser ratcheting action, rougher chrome, and some of the wrenches don't even have individual part numbers. Whereas, Gearwrench tools purchased online from tool retailers or from auto parts stores seem to be better quality.

As for putting MATCO 88 tooth repair kits in Gearwrench ratchets, I have never understood why anyone would bother doing this. Perhaps updating an older 60 tooth ratchet to me anything over 60 teeth is overkill. I own ratchets from most brands with higher tooth counts and they all serve me well whether they have 60, 84, 88, 90, or a hundred teeth.

As for a long handle 3/8 drive ratchet, I can recommend two models that are pretty tough but, won't break the bank. The first one would be a NAPA Carlyle Long fixed head 90 tooth ratchet with comfort grip handle. Get this one when on sale. If you don't like soft grip handles, pick up the long handle Gearwrench 84 tooth all metal model. Although I own a couple of 15 inch long handled truck brand 3/8 drive ratchets, I seldom use them. They're handy for belt tensioners but, aside from that they're often too long to be practical, and the handles flex a bit under load.

The brand name stamped into a tool isn't really important. What is important is how well the tool serves you, and how you feel using it.

 

[Wamsutta]

Matco is an office and a warehouse; they don't make tools.

 

[Skin]

Matco is an office and a warehouse; they don't make tools.

They make tool boxes. A number of tools are contracted out and are unique to them especially now with the death of Armstrong. The fact that their name isn't on the manufacturing building is really kind of moot in those situations. Case in point their ratchets are exclusively manufactured and supplied by AJ Manufacturing. Snap-On does this too like with their pullers being exclusively supplied by Hydramec.

 

[lazer50]

Good to know that the matco 88 will fit! I also just bought a long 3/8"and it makes 5,84t and 2 120xp.as far as country of origin,i see a major diffrerence in gw's ratchet wrenches.i bought 2 new sets coo china.they will slip every now and then,and generic finish compared to my taiwan made.imo

 

[jrockford]

A lot of folks here on the board claim that there is, but I've yet to see it, and I own a LOT of GearWrench. I think it's less factual and more emotional, personally.

Stick around, and you'll find enough posts to the contrary. If you listen to some folks, Craftsman has always been worse than using a stick and a rock to repair your stuff.

I have a few Taiwan made GW ratchets and Chinese GW ratcheting wrenches. There's a definite difference in surface finish and chrome coat between the 2. Structural quality is somewhat apples to oranges as they both function flawlessly, but have different intended uses.

As far as Craftsman ALWAYS being bad, I can't say I've ever heard this along with a logical reason why. To echo your reply about the above topic, more emotional perhaps?

 

[JohnDeere1]

Speaking of L-O-N-G 3/8" drive ratchets...

This is the Tekton 18" 3/8" drive 72 tooth Ratchet...

The other photo is the 24" 1/2" and the 18" 3/8" compared...

They are worth the asking price...$27.60 at Amazon...

As I am in my eighth decade, the extra leverage is nice to have...

I have the 18" Tekton but never used it also have 3 other 18"ers snap on,Mac ,and kobalt. The Tekton and kobalt both use the same guts and I think are made by the same people only difference is one is a flex.

 

[B.S.A. (ret.)]

"Back in the day", I remember when New Britain came out with their 60-tooth ratchets and many asked why would you ever need more than 45-teeth which was 1-1/2 to more than double the tooth count of the standard ratchets of the time. That being said, I love my Dual 80's and Matco 88. Still haven't seen the need to go higher than that, just grab the power tools and negate the whole debate.

 

[PFSard]

I also bought an old Cornwell 1/4" ratchet, but I lost the bearing when I was cleaning it. I tried to replace it with a 1/8" bearing, but it was too big and I mangled the spring when I tried to use it. I like the feel of it, but I need to replace those parts.

I'll leave the rest of the discussion for others. The bearing you need for your 1/4" drive is probably 3/32". Those tiny things can be a PITA!!

 

[Scotty_B]

I'll leave the rest of the discussion for others. The bearing you need for your 1/4" drive is probably 3/32". Those tiny things can be a PITA!!

I found some of those 3/32 steel balls. Wonder where I could find that spring, though. I wonder if Cornwell would still carry parts for a ratchet that old. Guess I should contact them.