I see nothing in your posts about WHY it can't be attached to your existing structure. Would be a simple matter to attach a proper ledger board to the framing of the building. It's done all the time.
OTher than that, if you are intent on a free-standing design, then you need to look at POST-frame construction methods / youtube channels and also old-world timber-framing designs. There is nothing difficult about what you are wanting to accomplish.
I find you posts about it taking forever and nobody local having any solutions or willingness to take on the work to be confusing.
Look at some vids by RR buildings in the midwest.
https://www.youtube.com/c/RRBuildings
They do an excellent job of showing post-framed construction methods. All the info on footings, laminated tall posts, everything you need is in their vids.
What matters is your local code requirements and approval process and what if any freeze / footing depth you have to be concerned with in your locality. As that will drive design choices.
Lastly, you should have gone to your local code authority FIRST THING so they could give you guidance on what they need to see or so they could suggest solutions. You seem to be doing the reverse, trying to divine the answers before you even bring a plan to them, and 'planning to fail' and revise as they demand. Why not instead skip that part and START with them.
/i'm no fan of seeking permission or slavishly following dictates, but it would seem they would have the answers and your methods don't seem to be getting anywhere so far.
Sorry for being MIA. I had to take care of family and then I fell ill myself, long story. I'm back, but keeping this short as I can, recovering but not feeling so great.
For the questions: Phew! This is a lot to reply to when there's no quick easy answer. I tried to streamline my thread this time to avoid that. But for the sake of answering out of common courtesy, I'm just going to skim over the biggest reasons - which will still be a lot.
Thanks rayra, lots of really helpful stuff there.
You wrote: I see nothing in your posts about WHY it can't be attached to your existing structure.
It was a potential TMI situation, that was my reason for start out with 'because it can't be attached structurally' and left it at that.
I know it's common practice starting with a ledger board, that was my knee jerk reaction too. Then the City, a highly respected local pole barn contractor (that said the job would be minimum 1 1/2 yrs out for him) and the qualified pole barn specialist designers I mentioned earlier, at different times all said that it wasn't designed to handle additional loads. That's the very nature and appeal of most pole barns - being built cheaply. That they aren't always designed to handle added loads. Not without some retrofitting and reinforcements first. They said, adding to a design which has been specifically calibrated only to handle it's own load requirements, could cause failure under the high stresses with additional loads and down forces not considered or intended by the original designer or architect.
Becasue of how it's used, mine unfortunately isn't considered an agricultural building. If it were, it'd be done by now. Ag bldg laws are very lose here. Laws apply differently in my situation since it's a machine shop & occupied. I agree with you,.. I'm not a fan either, but at the end of the day, we're all tethered by the local code and enforcement for sure.
I was told a ledger board would involve a full on construction permit to attach. Instead of a basic bldg permit. From what the city told me, the shop would have to be inspected before anything could happen. Any mods or retrofits required would have to addressed before the lean-to could proceed. That might end up being a can of worms. Not to mention our permit fees just increased by 50% last month.
Though I've spent a ton of money repairing, fixing and improving on some seriously shady construction on this money pit of a pole barn, there are things an inspector might have issues with that I haven't gotten around to yet. I'm not sure I wanna open a can of worms there adn create more headaches for myself. When we bought the place, it wasn't even up to past standards let alone todays. I've since come to know the contractor who built it. He has a bad reputation and I found out first hand why. He built the house too, and did equally poor work. It's been a nightmare.
It was originally the City and a Designer Architect who proposed considering building a freestanding non-structural lean-to, to get around the obstacles. I knew it wasn't the answer, but at least it gave me a starting point.
Also, the posts on the pole barn are showing their age - 27 yrs. I'm not a fan of adding a load to them. One is rotted out at the base and in need of repair before anything begins. I'd considered placing the new supporting post on the lean-to @ 10' o.c. instead of 12' sistering up to the pole barn's. This would stagger the posts and make any future repairs far less of a headache on the old posts. If the lean-to and shop were anchored together by the ledger board etc, all the better for that too.
One solution is to open that exterior wall, notch the concrete and add another row of posts inside the walls to beef it up. I like this idea, but it's more work than you'd know becasue of the interior situation. And, there's neither the time or budget for all that.
YOU WROTE
: I find you posts about it taking forever and nobody locally having any solutions or willingness to take on the work to be confusing.
Me too ray,.. me too. I understand and It doesn't look good for me does it? lol!
I will say, before relocating, I have 36 yrs of managing 2 successful businesses back to back under my belt. With crews and handling large contracts + job bids with the City, Gov, Hospitals, Lawyer firms, Banks, Hotel Chains, Factories, UPS distribution centers and countless residential locations. In all that time working with people, I only lost one bid. Complaints were rare to none. As acting jobsite coordinator, inspectors frequently commented to co-workers that I was the easiest person they'd worked with, always ready, prepared and respected their time. We proudly had a separate file cabinet dedicated to references and all the appreciation letters we'd received over the years from our clients. We never lost a contract unless the business moved, closed or local contractor opportunities had to be rotated by law.
I mention this, to represent myself in whatever confusion there is. I'm simply saying I know how to talk to people, I assure you it's nothing I'm doing and I'm not accusing anyone of saying that either - just covering my ***. I and other people present when I made most of the calls, would tell you, it wasn't anything I did. Then again, that's just might be what a crazy delusional person would say too. Ha! And,.. that's the part where someone says, "You said it, not me!"
Customer service and overall business demeanor has changed over the yrs here. In my experience, it's a sign of the times or simple as people being over their service limit and blowing potential customers off - it happens. To be fair, it's not just this way with builders either. It's plumbers, electricians and concrete guys too. (all businesses I've tried to hire in the last 2yrs) Even my internet went out again a few weeks ago. The soonest they could schedule a tech was 12 days. An improvement for the 14 days last time. Luckily it came back on the next day. Come to find out, they were over servicing our area and that's why it failed.
I called every spray foam specialist within 100 miles last year to do a job, and not one returned my calls. I ended up ordering 2 pallets of spray foam and doing it myself. Only one concrete business returned my calls and never got back to me after I sent them the info they requested for an estimate. Not even after attempting to touch base with them as a reminder. So, I did that myself too. These were all jobs located in a neighboring town close to them. It's just the way it is around here.
Construction's notoriously well known for being a congested or procrastinating profession around here. It took 1 1/2 yrs before the guy who built my neighbors house could be bothered to finish putting up some simple trim and box in some porch posts. I've worked with about every kind of contractor and was even one myself. Even when I had 12 guys going full bore and couldn't keep up, I always returned calls whether I could take the job or not. That was just my way of doing things. But I will say that good contractors are hard to find, becasue they're usually the busiest of them all, for good reason.
YOU WROTE: Lastly, you should have gone to your local code authority FIRST THING so they could give you guidance on what they need to see or so they could suggest solutions.
Couldn't agree more, but who said I didn't?? If you look directly above your post, among my last sentences it states, "The city's what foiled my plans of a LVL ledger board and keeping it simple like I thought it'd be."
I wrote that because I began with the intention of using a ledger board. And at some point had contact with the city to begin with,... first thing. And like most, I pursued that conversation further asking them, "Why the heck not?" Which is how I ended up here.
I started spring of last year, and my first thread here wasn't until August after hitting walls with them for months on end. From what you're saying, you're quite fortunate. Our City / LCA does not function with the same tax payer courtesy and consideration that yours does. I can get answers incrementally when I press my luck, but only crumbs and incomplete answers.
Numerous emails and voicemails failed without reply this entire time. Going down there and talking to them in person, I do get ambiguous titbits but it mostly falls on deaf ears as they repeat that I should examine the local codes online (as if I hadn't already, since that was the point of calling or going down there myself). And if I have any further questions to speak with a rep or hire a professional to address any further concerns as they cannot advise, design or assist me in any architectural designing of a project with a home owner, due to liabilities. And then they say, if you have any further questions, feel free to contact our office and we'll be glad to connect you with a representative. Rinse and repeat...
That was their reaction to this specific project, as well as 7 other permits I've filed before on previous occasions at his location. It was like pulling teeth, but in the end I passed with flying colors. So, this too shall pass. It's just the way things work here for everybody. My friends and neighbors have all gone through the same thing.
After complaining, the receptionist told me if I get 98% of it right on my blueprints, they'll assist in minor corrections. They have too many people with too many questions flooding understaffed gates with a DIY attitude, becasue of either the economy or lack of professionals available. So, they're trying to discourage people from taking too much of their time, because they still have jobs to do. Which, I do understand. I appreciated the honest answer, so it didn't matter of whether I liked it or not. Just a matter of how to get around it.
That seems odd? Here in Indiana we have 20 psf snowload but frost depth is 40-42 inch depth with requires a 48" pole depth. And that depth is merely adequate for wind loads. I think 32" is way to shallow.
But there are some odd locations, hense, why "where do you live" is important. You don't have to tell us your actual small town or neighborhood, just a general location.
I agree. I'm probably going with 4' depth for all the reasons you mentioned. I've had everything verified and it's correct. The 48 psf snow load, I'll just round off to 50psf. I did finally find out the wind load is risk category II, Vuly(mph) 120 & Vasd (mph) is 93. So that was progress.
You asked them and they said you can't? Any more to this? Curious.
Hopefully I covered that enough above. It's not so much that I can't, as it's just complicated. I really didn't want it on city record that my building failed inspection either. They did tell me besides the added expense, that it could be an insurance nightmare. It's not a run down shack, don't get me wrong. I just need a lean-to sooner than I can finish the repairs inside - and doing it the way I'd like to. So freestanding is a compromise between the two - another route to get it done. I'm running out of time now with fall approaching. I may just finish what I'm doing in the pole barn and then not worry about inspections and added coast complicating things. But that'll cost me dearly having the shop down that long.
I will say though, anchoring them together is a great option and I like that idea 100%. I think I've worked out a way around it with the city, I should know something soon. Either way, I don't wish to add any additional loads to the existing building even when I finish the repairs I've been doing. It's just not built for it. The extra posts might cost a little more and be less pretty, but it's peace of mind and not as if I'd regret it later or anything. It's a cry once not twice, kinda thing.
Hope that makes sense?
