Messed up my 4-way switched circuits

[djmdammit]

I wired up my garage wrong. I ran the load and the power cables where the 4way switch will be. I dont want to tear out the new drywall to fix it. Isn't there a way to make this work by using the neutral as a hot lead? I'll try to get a pic.

I actually did this in two seperate circuits. One has the hot lead at the 4-way switch with the load at the end. The other circuit has the load at the 4-way switch and power at the end. Can anyone help?

 

[VHF]

Let's see if we've got this straight. You are going to have this circuit switched at 3 locations, so you have a 3-way switch, a 4-way switch, and a 3-way switch. Does that describe what you are planning, or are you only wanting switches at two locations?

 

[djmdammit]

Let's see if we've got this straight. You are going to have this circuit switched at 3 locations, so you have a 3-way switch, a 4-way switch, and a 3-way switch. Does that describe what you are planning, or are you only wanting switches at two locations?

Hey vhf- yes that's right. I have a circuit consisting of three switched locations so i have planned for a 4-way switch flanked by 3-way switches. The load is at the 4 way switch box.

And the second circuit is the same but I power at the 4 way switch box.

 

[pattenp]

Do a Google image search for "4-way Switch Wiring Diagrams". Looking at those images I'm sure you'll see a way to make it work if possible.

 

[VHF]

In multiple location switch setups, you are always going to need 3 conductors (plus ground) between each switch location. This can be 1 hot + two travelers, 2 travelers + 1 neutral, or 2 travelers + 1 load. As long as there are 3 wires (plus ground) available between each box you are good to go no matter which boxes the incoming line and and outgoing load are connected to.

Let's call the three boxes A, B, and C. B is the "middle" box with the 4-way switch. This might be a case where a picture is worth a 1,000 words, but I'll try to describe the connections (hopefully in less than 1,000 words!)

One has the hot lead at the 4-way switch with the load at the end.

The hot lead coming into box B will wirenut to an available wire* which will go to box A, where it will connect to the "common" terminal on the 3-way switch. The two travelers will then come from the 3-way switch in box A to the 4-way switch in box B. Two more travelers will continue from the 4-way switch to the 3-way switch in box C. The "common" terminal on the 3-way switch in box C will connect to the load.

The incoming neutral in box B will wire nut to an available white wire to travel to Box C, where it will wire nut to the neutral going to the load.

The other circuit has the load at the 4-way switch and power at the end.

Assuming the incoming power is at the end we call Box A...

The hot lead coming into box A will connect to the "common" terminal on the 3-way switch. Two travelers (typically black and red) will continue to Box B. The incoming neutral will wire nut an available white wire and also continue to box B, where it will be wire nutted to the neutral going to the load.

In Box B, the incoming travelers will connect to the 4 way switch. The other side of the 4-way switch will connect to two more travelers which will continue to Box C. In Box C, the two travelers will connect to the 3-way switch. The "common" terminal of the 3-way switch (which is the switched hot going to the load) will connect to the remaining wire* to go back to Box B, where it will be wire nutted to the wire going to the load.

There, I think that was less than 1,000 words (but maybe not by much!) Hopefully you can draw it out from this description.

*If you are using NM (Romex), you may recolor wires to change the white wire to another color for use as something other than a neutral. Green and bare copper are for ground ONLY; white and gray are for neutral ONLY; all other colors may be used for hot leads, including travelers and switched hot to the load. In the case of standard 12-3 NM, I would use the black and red as the travelers and when needed recolor the white to say blue when it is needed as a hot or switched hot (load) conductor.

 

[djmdammit]

Thank you for taking the time to write this up VHF! Much appreciated. I will draw it out and give it a try.

 

[djmdammit]

I followed your advice and everything seems to be working just fine


Now that I have these recesssed LED lights in working order I can see they are too BRIGHT. If I want to install a dimmer switch can I just place one where the power comes in or do I need to have a dimmer at all three switch locations? Those little dimmers, at least the ones compatible with LED lights are about $40/a piece!

 

[VHF]

Awesome!

You can either use a single dimmer or get one designed for 3-way (or 4-way) operation.

These days, dimmers designed for 3-way operation frequently come with two units in the package. One is the actual dimmer unit which installs in place of one 3-way switch. The other is a "remote" switch that installs in place of the other 3-way switch. These are designed to hook up using the existing traveler wires in place of regular 3-way switches. Some manufacturers allow adding additional "remote" switches to control the light from additional locations (in place of a 4-way switch.)

If you want to add a standard single-location dimmer to your circuit, the best place to put it in the circuit would be after your last 3-way switch but before the load. That way, your 3-way and 4-way switches turn on and off the power going to the dimmer. This assumes the dimmer is the sort that "remembers" where you have it set! Some electronic dimmers might revert to a default level after a power failure (which is what turning off the switch would be from the dimmer's perspective.)

The biggest drawback in adding a single dimmer to your existing 3-way/4-way setup would be the need to make room for it next to your last 3-way switch--either replaceing a single-width J-box with a double or else using an old-work box to install the dimmer near the 3-way switch.

There used to be some 3-way dimmers (designed for incandescent lights) that would work with a regular 3-way switch on the other end. These typically had a knob for dimming and pushing the knob toggled on-off. If you can find one like this that is designed for LEDs then you could just replace one of your regular 3-way switches and keep your other 3-way and 4-way as-is.

Note that most dimmers designed for LED lighting requrie a neutral connection as well as the incoming hot and outoing load lines, but this shouldn't be an issue as long as you locate it in a box where you have a neutral available.

 

[djmdammit]

Not sure I follow. I guess I was trying to understand how many dimmers are required in a circuit with three switch locations. Can I get away with using one dimmer switch? Installing another gang isnt an option at this point.

 

[VHF]

You only need one dimmer, but (because you don't want to add an extra gang) you need one specifically designed for 3-way applications.

They used to make them where you could just replace one 3-way switch and leave a regular 3-way switch on the other end, but I don't know if they make this style for LED. If you can find a suitable 3-way dimmer that has only one switch in the package and doesn't say it requires a special device on the other end, then you would be good to go. They used to make them where pushing the knob toggled the switch, and you could leave a regular 3-way switch on the other end (as well as any 4-way switches in the middle.)

The other style of 3-way dimmer popular these days is where you get two devices in the package--one is the actual dimmer and the other is a compatible "remote dimmer" that mearly sends control signals to the main dimmer unit. These are designed to use in place of standard 3-way switches, although how they use the travelers may be different (i.e. they may use one traveler as always hot and the other to send a signal.) With this style you can't leave any of the existing 3-way or 4-way switches in place, so you would need to obtain an additional compatible "remote dimmer" to be able to control the light from 3 locations (i.e. you would have one main dimmer unit and two compatible "remote dimmer" units.)

Next time I'm in the home center I'll have to browse the electrical department to see what is typically available these days.