After years of waiting, I am finally doing a garage/shop at my home. The grading starts next week and the concrete will follow in the coming weeks. I am going with a 30x40, with (2) 10x8 doors. My question to the group is this... Should I go with the metal garage (square tubing framing) or should I stick build it? The metal garage is faster and less expensive. The stick built will cost me a little more plus my labor, but is more customizeable. I own a construction renovation company so I have the knowledge and labor to build it, but not really the time. Please tell me the positive and negatives based on your experiences. I want to make the right choice and have to have a final decision before any concrete work starts.
Metal Garage V/S Stick Built
- Thread starter Lawnace
- Start date
finn
Well-known member
Stick. No question. The tube frame buildings seem like a temporary solution, at best.
readhead
Well-known member
Being in the construction business you are aware that there are many ways to build a building. In your case I think you would be better off making money at your regular jobs than pulling away your people to build your garage.
The metal building can be customized if you are talking to the right supplier. Be very careful about how you approach purchasing a tube steel structure. There are a lot of sketchy actors in the business. Approach the concrete details carefully. Watch what kind of doors and windows they want to supply. Most are poor quality and try to go with sectional overhead doors rather than roll up doors. I would recommend that you insulate now and with real insulation, not bubble wrap.
Any building can be finished any way. I have put shingles on a metal building. I have installed wood siding on a metal building. Tube steel buildings are just as permanent as any other kind of building.
The metal building can be customized if you are talking to the right supplier. Be very careful about how you approach purchasing a tube steel structure. There are a lot of sketchy actors in the business. Approach the concrete details carefully. Watch what kind of doors and windows they want to supply. Most are poor quality and try to go with sectional overhead doors rather than roll up doors. I would recommend that you insulate now and with real insulation, not bubble wrap.
Any building can be finished any way. I have put shingles on a metal building. I have installed wood siding on a metal building. Tube steel buildings are just as permanent as any other kind of building.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
Knowing your location would be a big help. As to stick vs tube, it's location dependent. There are areas where tube structure is not appropriate without significant engineering going into the designwork.
Thanks for the replies. I am located in the central area of NC so our weather is hot in the summer but usually moderate in the winter. I definately want to insulate the building and add hvac to keep it comfortable. Eagle carports is the company I am working with if I go the metal route. They offer the double bubble insulation or a 2" fiberglass insulation. The fiberglass only raises the R value by about 3% over the bubble according to their website. My thought was to have the bubble installed by them to control the condesation issue and to add by own regular insulation before I finish out the interior. As for the garage doors, they have the roll up doors which are not insulated and have gaps at the ends near the track. I plan to have a seperate company install residential insulated garage doors.
jrsavoie
Well-known member
I would go with 12' doors just in case there's ever a dually in your future.
We like the 12' wide doors with the dually.
We like the 12' wide doors with the dually.
I'd rather have stick built hands down. I can build it, modify it and add on quite easily.
Never messed with the metal tube frame and not sure how well it would perform in colder climates being metal is a good conductor of hot/cold.
Never messed with the metal tube frame and not sure how well it would perform in colder climates being metal is a good conductor of hot/cold.
So going with a minimum if 12' side walls ?
I went square tube building, for cost. From what I can tell the bubble portion of bubble wrap is useless, but a radiant barrier is the best value, preferably installed when the building is assembled. A radiant barrier would be optional with an insulated and conditioned space.
Toolfool
Well-known member
I went with carportcentral . They're a 'broker', and I insisted on connecting with the company that would actually supply my building ( TBS in Lake City, FL ). I called and met with the owner before putting a deposit down. My building is 46x48x12, and anything over 30' is considered 'commercial' and gets double stud framing ( 2-1/2" x 2-1/2" studs stitch-welded together ) making all my walls 5" deep. This allowed me to frame interior walls with 2x4's inside the metal framing and not lose any interior space.
Firebrick43
Well-known member
If your wanting to insulate and heat, Stick built hands down.
If you go the glorified carport route, make sure the slab is the same size as the building instead of the slab being bigger than the building. Wind driven water will be pushed under the sill
If you go the glorified carport route, make sure the slab is the same size as the building instead of the slab being bigger than the building. Wind driven water will be pushed under the sill
PWC Repair
Well-known member
Mine is both.....like a "Perka" except a different manufacturer.
I definately want to insulate and heat. The slab will be the same size as the building. I have noticed other posts about water coming under the sill or bottom plate of the metal buildings. Sounds like stick built is going to bethe better option for my situation.
glentre
Well-known member
Depends on your neighborhood. Metal buildings in a residential area, even if permitted, are an eyesore and bring down the potential resale value of the property and may get the neighbors pissed off as well. In a rural or commercial area, no problem with metal.
Glen
Glen
Toolfool
Well-known member
Thanks for the compliment. Open cell spray foamed. ( closed cell was over $12k ). Painted the ceilings. Plywood over framed walls so I can screw things anywhere I need to. Stained concrete floors. (you can check out my thread )
I also only ordered "framed openings" for all doors and supplied and installed my own doors and had insulated overhead garage doors
installed. With a 12K mini-split in the shop area and an 18K in the garage area, plus a wall mounted oscillating fan in each area, it stays around 80 +/- degrees in there on the hottest North Florida days this year.
I don't believe the stuff about "bring down the resale value". It may reduce the size of your interested buyer base, but the right buyer will pay.
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Toolfool
Well-known member
In reference to comments about the size of your slab, my slab was formed at 7" bigger than the building in both directions. I screwed a 2x4 on flat inside the top edge of the forms to create a "brick ledge" type of step. The building's frame sits 1-1/2" above the ledge where water can reach and the siding goes down to the lower point. NO CHANCE of water getting into the building.
jack stand
Well-known member
That's a very nice detail!In reference to comments about the size of your slab, my slab was formed at 7" bigger than the building in both directions. I screwed a 2x4 on flat inside the top edge of the forms to create a "brick ledge" type of step. The building's frame sits 1-1/2" above the ledge where water can reach and the siding goes down to the lower point. NO CHANCE of water getting into the building.
Lou's Garage
Well-known member
Lawnace: For reference, I went with the bubble insulation on my building. In a similar climate to yours it's been great. It holds the heat back in the Summer and retains heat in the Winter. The temperature change is slow so there is no "rain" or any problem like that. I think if I were in a colder climate I might opt for spray foam but the cost difference was unbelievable. My building is larger (30 x 50) so it has the doubled uprights like Toolfool's. I only briefly considered stick built until I got the first quote, a smaller building was more than double what I have into this.
Lou Manglass
Lou Manglass
nadogail
Well-known member
Best wishes for a great shop and an agreeable building experience.
CraigStu
Well-known member
What I see here is a metal building and then a stick building built inside. Seems like double work to me so I wonder why.
jack stand
Well-known member
That's very similar to what you have with a finished interior with post frame (pole) building also.
I think the OP, since he's in the trade should frame it. I believe that in the long run he'll have a better resale value. Actually eaves and overhangs and a tremendous visual impact but while "shopping", often overlooked. That said @toolfoo's building is the first one of this type building that I'm aware of having this detail and it looks like normal stick construction.
I think the OP, since he's in the trade should frame it. I believe that in the long run he'll have a better resale value. Actually eaves and overhangs and a tremendous visual impact but while "shopping", often overlooked. That said @toolfoo's building is the first one of this type building that I'm aware of having this detail and it looks like normal stick construction.
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Between stick and square tube, I'd go stick. If you were considering red iron, or cold formed steel, I might have a different opinion.
I put up a cold formed steel building last year. For many of the same reasons as you're considering. cost (at the time I think lumber was near its peak), fewer steps in the assembly. And all that is true.
One of the biggest pains I have now that I'm outfitting the shop is mounting anything to a wall is a huge pain. And if you're just going to go ahead and frame out the interior with 2x4s in order to hang OSB/drywall/etc. you've lost any cost or time advantage of going with a metal building.
I think the biggest advantage of metal buildings is the clear span and the distance you can have unsupported roof trusses. For me, the clear span meant I could install a decent size lift without making the building with 12' or 14' walls. My span is 40' across - that's more of a challenge to do with wood trusses - probably not impossible but....
I put up a cold formed steel building last year. For many of the same reasons as you're considering. cost (at the time I think lumber was near its peak), fewer steps in the assembly. And all that is true.
One of the biggest pains I have now that I'm outfitting the shop is mounting anything to a wall is a huge pain. And if you're just going to go ahead and frame out the interior with 2x4s in order to hang OSB/drywall/etc. you've lost any cost or time advantage of going with a metal building.
I think the biggest advantage of metal buildings is the clear span and the distance you can have unsupported roof trusses. For me, the clear span meant I could install a decent size lift without making the building with 12' or 14' walls. My span is 40' across - that's more of a challenge to do with wood trusses - probably not impossible but....
dcg9381
Well-known member
In Texas, apparently this is called (by the locals) a "rat lip" - we use it in red iron buildings too.
My order of preference:
Red Iron, stick built, tube.
Not a darn thing wrong with a tube garage!
My Old Tools
Well-known member
readhead
Well-known member
There is a lot of misinformation about metal buildings and specifically tube steel out there. I think that most people base their opinions on inexpensive carport builders and they are not familiar with the other options out there.
I hear all the time that wood framing inside a tube building is redundant and expensive, why not just stick frame? The easiest, fastest and least expensive way is to install hat channels on the inside horizontal and then install whatever wall finish you want. No wood framing needed. I want overhangs, no problem if you are talking to the right supplier.
I have installed red iron, cold formed and tube steel and can get pretty much any result you want. Wind and snow load performance can be had with any system depending on your specific requirements.
I hear all the time that wood framing inside a tube building is redundant and expensive, why not just stick frame? The easiest, fastest and least expensive way is to install hat channels on the inside horizontal and then install whatever wall finish you want. No wood framing needed. I want overhangs, no problem if you are talking to the right supplier.
I have installed red iron, cold formed and tube steel and can get pretty much any result you want. Wind and snow load performance can be had with any system depending on your specific requirements.
I might misunderstand what you're talking about since I'm from central Europe, but here a metal garage is a much better choice by miles... And especially for a garage where I grind and weld stuff, I'd be very scared to even consider wood or flammable materials.
I'm also a bit on the cheap side, so I scouted for old materials. I know a guy who disassembles industrial garages and he offered me the "sandwich" aluminium panels. You can do a garage with those in no time. But I didn't like the foam inside (was still concerned about fires, though tbf maybe a bit excessive). Instead I bought the bare aluminium panels he had. They were from some old chicken farm, 4€/square meter - about half the cost of new steel roofing. I bought all the stock he had, took a week to pressure wash it and used stainless rivets in all the old holes. For the garage I planned on adding insulation, but I also used the roof for a car canopy and I glued on felt ("dripstop", a local company makes it and I bought it straight from them, 1€ per square meter of a faulty roll but half of it was useful, so I got through really cheaply). All together it took me two weeks to properly clean all the panels and apply that felt (otherwise condensation makes water drip off of it), but the panels were like new and industrial-thick (I think a bit over 1mm, pretty good for something like this, and with tall "waves").
This was about 7 years ago when steel was quite cheap compared to today. I ordered 180x50 rectangular tubing, 4mm thick. The odd size was so the tubes supported the outer and inner walls. They were used as pillars around the garage. When the concrete base was made, I also welded thick flat steel on the rebar, right where the pillars were supposed to go, so they're not moving... On the pillars, across the perimeter of the garage, I welded 40x20 3mm thick rectangular tubing on four levels on the outer side, so I could screw on the panels. On top, to connect the pillars, I had a bunch of old railroad tracks for very cheap and used those (basically very beefy I beams), and also added strong braces. This took about 4 days to get everything nice and level. On top of the I beams, I also welded on the 40x20mm rectangular tubing so I could attach the roof panels easily. It took me three days to clean the welds and paint everything properly.
Then the panels were on in a day. At first I struggled to get the screws right in the just 20mm wide tube, but then got the brilliant idea to search for it with a magnet! Didn't miss one screw afterwards.
Then I used non-flammable insulation (glass wool) and some fire-resistant plasterboards to cover it all up. The plasterboards are mounted directly to the 180x50 rectangular tubes. All panels and fibreboards were attached with self-cutting stainless steel screws, but turns out the stainless ones aren't that great for drilling and cutting thick steel so I used a normal drill first and then popped the screw in instead otherwise I had a bunch of issues. The tapered phillips head self cutting screws for the plasterboard were a bit tricky to find (had to order online).
To keep wiring simple and practical in the garage, I just ran a big PVC electrical channel on top of it all around it and pulled cables out of it, and all components are on top of plaster board...
On the end of the garage I also cut holes to the steel beams in the wall and welded on that thick 180x50 tubing straight out for a fixed table (also some bracing). It's amazing since I can use the broom under it easily since there are no table legs, but it's really rigid. On another pillar I did a similar stand just for a big vise, and on another I made a stand for a bench grinder.
I also left some holes in the top plasterboard and welded on some spacers and two thinner I profiles, so I can use them to winch stuff and even use them as rails if I'd make something that'd roll on them...
There aren't many things that could catch on fire inside, and the aluminium won't rust much anyway, so I think this garage will outlast me.
All together, it took me about two months to finish it all, and I didn't quite break the bank (steel was really cheap at the time, I think I gave 1500€ for it all, another ~100€ for the paint, some 500€ for the concrete, about 300-400€ for the fireproof plasterboard... We even poured the concrete base ourselves. I think I paid 1700€ for the aluminium panels, but had a bunch left over afterwards.
Welding profiles is quite easy, and if you place them together smart (ideally, the structure should stand without the welds if there's no wind...) it is not an issue. Of course it's very overbuilt, a structural engineer would use way less material, but I'd pay more for a structural engineer than if I just bought more material.
I'm also a bit on the cheap side, so I scouted for old materials. I know a guy who disassembles industrial garages and he offered me the "sandwich" aluminium panels. You can do a garage with those in no time. But I didn't like the foam inside (was still concerned about fires, though tbf maybe a bit excessive). Instead I bought the bare aluminium panels he had. They were from some old chicken farm, 4€/square meter - about half the cost of new steel roofing. I bought all the stock he had, took a week to pressure wash it and used stainless rivets in all the old holes. For the garage I planned on adding insulation, but I also used the roof for a car canopy and I glued on felt ("dripstop", a local company makes it and I bought it straight from them, 1€ per square meter of a faulty roll but half of it was useful, so I got through really cheaply). All together it took me two weeks to properly clean all the panels and apply that felt (otherwise condensation makes water drip off of it), but the panels were like new and industrial-thick (I think a bit over 1mm, pretty good for something like this, and with tall "waves").
This was about 7 years ago when steel was quite cheap compared to today. I ordered 180x50 rectangular tubing, 4mm thick. The odd size was so the tubes supported the outer and inner walls. They were used as pillars around the garage. When the concrete base was made, I also welded thick flat steel on the rebar, right where the pillars were supposed to go, so they're not moving... On the pillars, across the perimeter of the garage, I welded 40x20 3mm thick rectangular tubing on four levels on the outer side, so I could screw on the panels. On top, to connect the pillars, I had a bunch of old railroad tracks for very cheap and used those (basically very beefy I beams), and also added strong braces. This took about 4 days to get everything nice and level. On top of the I beams, I also welded on the 40x20mm rectangular tubing so I could attach the roof panels easily. It took me three days to clean the welds and paint everything properly.
Then the panels were on in a day. At first I struggled to get the screws right in the just 20mm wide tube, but then got the brilliant idea to search for it with a magnet! Didn't miss one screw afterwards.
Then I used non-flammable insulation (glass wool) and some fire-resistant plasterboards to cover it all up. The plasterboards are mounted directly to the 180x50 rectangular tubes. All panels and fibreboards were attached with self-cutting stainless steel screws, but turns out the stainless ones aren't that great for drilling and cutting thick steel so I used a normal drill first and then popped the screw in instead otherwise I had a bunch of issues. The tapered phillips head self cutting screws for the plasterboard were a bit tricky to find (had to order online).
To keep wiring simple and practical in the garage, I just ran a big PVC electrical channel on top of it all around it and pulled cables out of it, and all components are on top of plaster board...
On the end of the garage I also cut holes to the steel beams in the wall and welded on that thick 180x50 tubing straight out for a fixed table (also some bracing). It's amazing since I can use the broom under it easily since there are no table legs, but it's really rigid. On another pillar I did a similar stand just for a big vise, and on another I made a stand for a bench grinder.
I also left some holes in the top plasterboard and welded on some spacers and two thinner I profiles, so I can use them to winch stuff and even use them as rails if I'd make something that'd roll on them...
There aren't many things that could catch on fire inside, and the aluminium won't rust much anyway, so I think this garage will outlast me.
All together, it took me about two months to finish it all, and I didn't quite break the bank (steel was really cheap at the time, I think I gave 1500€ for it all, another ~100€ for the paint, some 500€ for the concrete, about 300-400€ for the fireproof plasterboard... We even poured the concrete base ourselves. I think I paid 1700€ for the aluminium panels, but had a bunch left over afterwards.
Welding profiles is quite easy, and if you place them together smart (ideally, the structure should stand without the welds if there's no wind...) it is not an issue. Of course it's very overbuilt, a structural engineer would use way less material, but I'd pay more for a structural engineer than if I just bought more material.
I love my 20x30x10 Metal (2.5" square 14g) building that I ordered from Alan's Factory Outlet for $9,700. I'm super grateful for it, and see no reason I wont enjoy it for a very long time. If you do go with one of these, here's a few things to consider to make your building even more nice and easier to finish out that I unfortunately did not understand at the time:
- Spend a TON of time on your foundation and getting everything exactly how you want it, and do not (even though they suggest) make the slab bigger than the building unless you do the raised "rat wall".
- Still seal the bottom base plate with a fat bead of a good polyurethane sealant from Loctite or Vulkem, the builders will want to throw it up quick so be present to make sure you get this part done.
- Pay a little bit more for the 12g tubing 4' on center (vs the stock 5') and thicker panels. Also get the vertical roof like I did.
- Forget the 'double bubble' insulation they try to sell you, get it spray foamed immediately.
- Play a ton with the online 3D builders, much cheaper to increase the size now obviously, and play around with your garage doors on the side vs gable ends to see what you like best vs price changes based on different configurations.
- Don't have them install a single window. They are extremely cheap windows and very overpriced. You can easily do this later fur much, much cheaper while still having much better quality windows. Plus they lie on where you can place the window. I wanted my windows centered, but due to the vertical tubing I had to offset them. Not a huge deal, just be aware.
Minus my mistakes I really love my building. I would love to go back in time and make it a bit bigger but that's what everyone else says. With my back, finances, and being busy with work I could have never made one stick built for this price. I just really wish I knew what I typed above beforehand!
- Spend a TON of time on your foundation and getting everything exactly how you want it, and do not (even though they suggest) make the slab bigger than the building unless you do the raised "rat wall".
- Still seal the bottom base plate with a fat bead of a good polyurethane sealant from Loctite or Vulkem, the builders will want to throw it up quick so be present to make sure you get this part done.
- Pay a little bit more for the 12g tubing 4' on center (vs the stock 5') and thicker panels. Also get the vertical roof like I did.
- Forget the 'double bubble' insulation they try to sell you, get it spray foamed immediately.
- Play a ton with the online 3D builders, much cheaper to increase the size now obviously, and play around with your garage doors on the side vs gable ends to see what you like best vs price changes based on different configurations.
- Don't have them install a single window. They are extremely cheap windows and very overpriced. You can easily do this later fur much, much cheaper while still having much better quality windows. Plus they lie on where you can place the window. I wanted my windows centered, but due to the vertical tubing I had to offset them. Not a huge deal, just be aware.
Minus my mistakes I really love my building. I would love to go back in time and make it a bit bigger but that's what everyone else says. With my back, finances, and being busy with work I could have never made one stick built for this price. I just really wish I knew what I typed above beforehand!
fitter30
Well-known member
8' high doors can be tight if the theres a truck involved.
F-22 sounds like you have a nice, well built shop. thanks for your reply.
Dougf - I agree with all your points and think it is a reasonable solution. But by the time I do a 30x40, then spray foam, I think I will have about as much in it as I would if I stick build.
I have decided to go with 10' high doors no matter which building I do, which means 12' walls.
Dougf - I agree with all your points and think it is a reasonable solution. But by the time I do a 30x40, then spray foam, I think I will have about as much in it as I would if I stick build.
I have decided to go with 10' high doors no matter which building I do, which means 12' walls.
Ah, can't find any good photos of it, but it's behind the hay rack (another reason why I wanted it to be very resistant to fire). It's large enough for ~4 tractors, I think around 10m long and 10m wide.
By the way the original hay rack frame is supposed to be 19th century oak. They are typical for my area. It was repaired and rebuilt numerous times, and about 20 years it was also enclosed, but it's one of the oldest ones in my area, and the craftsmanship of the oldest parts is amazing (only wood joints...). Only heartwood oak everywhere on the main frame, I don't think I ever saw an oak thick enough for something like this! The non-heartwood oak was eaten away by insects decades ago. Years ago, my father tied it together with some steel bars and threaded rods, raised it and made a concrete foundation, then enclosed it so there's hay on top and sheep underneath. The sun symbol is also about 15 years old now, some neighbour had a Krishna religion "phase" for a couple years, and while the wood was repainted he added the drawing. The grapevine should be about as old as the hay rack too.
By the way the original hay rack frame is supposed to be 19th century oak. They are typical for my area. It was repaired and rebuilt numerous times, and about 20 years it was also enclosed, but it's one of the oldest ones in my area, and the craftsmanship of the oldest parts is amazing (only wood joints...). Only heartwood oak everywhere on the main frame, I don't think I ever saw an oak thick enough for something like this! The non-heartwood oak was eaten away by insects decades ago. Years ago, my father tied it together with some steel bars and threaded rods, raised it and made a concrete foundation, then enclosed it so there's hay on top and sheep underneath. The sun symbol is also about 15 years old now, some neighbour had a Krishna religion "phase" for a couple years, and while the wood was repainted he added the drawing. The grapevine should be about as old as the hay rack too.
metlmunchr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2011
- Messages
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Based on horrible reviews and an endless string of BBB complaints against Eagle Carports, you might be better off to stick frame a shop with used pallets. Both will leak and both are likely to collapse in a good puff of wind, but at least the pallets would be free.
I respectfully disagree with the assessment on the durability of these buildings. Especially if you upgrade to the 12g framing and get it spray foamed. It will be as solid as a stick build.
I completely agree on your BBB assessment of Eagle Carports. Its horrible. That's why talking to the actual installer like the poster above did is a great idea to get the warm and fuzzy before putting the deposit down. I did not do that, and maybe I was lucky. One week after I submitted my deposit 3 Mexicans in a dually showed up and installed it in a day and a half and did an outstanding job. I know there are horror stories though.
I completely agree on your BBB assessment of Eagle Carports. Its horrible. That's why talking to the actual installer like the poster above did is a great idea to get the warm and fuzzy before putting the deposit down. I did not do that, and maybe I was lucky. One week after I submitted my deposit 3 Mexicans in a dually showed up and installed it in a day and a half and did an outstanding job. I know there are horror stories though.
readhead
Well-known member
The problem with Eagle and most others is not the product, it is the process. Granted most of these outfits use the lowest quality material such as the windows and doors and some other items. The reason they have such bad reviews is you never know when they will show up and who you will get to install. The installers are independent contractors and like any trade there are good ones and bad ones.
To the OP. You may want to look for an independent supplier or a Versatube dealer. They will be more attentive and have more options available and usually have their own installers.
To the OP. You may want to look for an independent supplier or a Versatube dealer. They will be more attentive and have more options available and usually have their own installers.
PWC Repair
Well-known member
That is the smart or correct way to do it. What myself and others have referred to is those that pour a flat slab larger than the building. Then the building is built atop the slab, leaving a space for rain, snow or whatever ever form of weather moisture to hit, sit and collect.In reference to comments about the size of your slab, my slab was formed at 7" bigger than the building in both directions. I screwed a 2x4 on flat inside the top edge of the forms to create a "brick ledge" type of step. The building's frame sits 1-1/2" above the ledge where water can reach and the siding goes down to the lower point. NO CHANCE of water getting into the building.
Caulk, sealant or whatever the builder used in an attempt to block the water intrusion is going to fail eventually.