Metal lathe/mill advice

[JordonMusser]

I am looking at buying either a Smithy 3 in 1, or a smaller Lathe and Mill from Grizzly or Smithy.

Budget is around $3k total (flexible).

Will be used only for 1 off parts, and at most a couple times a month. One of those "when you need it, you need it!". anything bigger/complex Ill farm out to a real machine shop.

Typical parts are spacers/etc and odds/ends for race cars. Nothing huge.

I have trouble making a decision because I am not that experienced. as an engineer I have played with manual mills/lathes and designed hundreds of parts built on CNC, but I am far from a machinest.

Anybody with experience have a suggestions? I have the room for a small lathe and a smaller mill, the price range pretty much dictates the size.

I dont expect to need to switch back and forth b/w mill-lathe often, as I wont really be designing/building parts.. more modification than anything else. Facing welded parts on the mill, spacers, etc.

Thanks for any input..

 

[xman_charl]

use a 9x20 and G602 from grizzly, sort of cheapo, good enough
for me

precision matthews is the best for laths/mills

Charl

 

[fordcragar]

If you the room, separate machines would be better. Look on Craigslist, you might find some good deals. I used to have a Shop Task 3 in 1 machine, but like the mill and lathe that I have now.

 

[DocsMachine]

Separate machines are always better. You waste a lot of time, and add a bunch of frustration, having to swap from one to the other all the time.

Also, the "combination" machines always have a lot of shortcomings; things like a really narrow "throat" (the distance between the mill spindle and the lathe headstock) an undersized mill table (they're usually undersized so they don't interfere too much with the mill travel) and wonky controls (awkwardly-located handles, hard-to-read dials, etc.)

Even with mini/desktop machines, you'd be much better off two two separate machines, rather than one big combo machine.

Doc.

 

[gte718p]

If you the room, separate machines would be better. Look on Craigslist, you might find some good deals. I used to have a Shop Task 3 in 1 machine, but like the mill and lathe that I have now.

Unless you are in an apartment and have no space, I highly recommend going with separate machines. $3k will go a long way.

A Grizzly G0463 and G0768Z would give you much more functionality and leave some money for tooling.

 

[buildyourown]

You know why you see Smithys for sale all the time? Cause they kinda ****.
$1000 will get you a serviceable Atlas or old Cman lathe all day. Especially, in your part of the country. $1500 gets you a little mill drill that will outrun any all-in-one. That leaves you $500 for tooling.

 

[Kiwi Canuck]

Precision Matthews, highly recommended and you will find what you need there and then some.

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/

Probably blow your $3,000 budget though if you want both a lathe and mill.

Nothing wrong with Smithy or Grizzly, just think PM is just a bit better, service wise and value for money.

I started looking at the 3 in 1 machines on CL and ended up with a set of PM machines, a PM1340GT Lathe & PM935TS Mill, no regrets here.

Good Luck

David.

 

[IndyGarage]

You know why you see Smithys for sale all the time? Cause they kinda ****.
$1000 will get you a serviceable Atlas or old Cman lathe all day. Especially, in your part of the country. $1500 gets you a little mill drill that will outrun any all-in-one. That leaves you $500 for tooling.

Not true - actual Smithy machines are hard to find used, sell quickly if they are priced right and bring good money on resale.

I had a Smithy for about 15 years and used it for the exact kinds of things the OP wants one for. They are perfect for that kind of work. I sold mine about 4 years ago because I now have individual machines - Bridgeport and Monarch lathe - and I wish I would have kept the Smithy. For quick, simple jobs it was really hard to beat, and it fit on a relatively small workbench.

The one I had was the small blue one that was their original model - I think they call it the granite or something like that. Mine was the 1220XL model, I think.

Like any made in China machines, there ware some rough edges on the machine - for example the belt tensioning device was junk and had to be rebuilt.

The lathe function is definitely better than the milling function. I would say the lathe was as good as many small benchtop lathes - atlas, south bend, etc. I eventually learned to cut with accuracy and even to cut threads on it, and made several fairly useful tools and parts with it. For example I made a motorcycle wheel adapter for my Snap-on wheel balancer, which was just like the one Snap on sells for $550. It worked great. The only problem with threading was you had to set up the change gears to get the right feed for each thread size. It was pretty simple once you did it a few times.

The mill function on mine was pretty limited by the cross slide travel. It also didn't have a ton of power - it was pretty easy to stall out the cutterhead. Even with those limitations, I still made plenty of little projects on it.

If you can find a good used one, with all its accessories, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it that way. New ones are pretty expensive.

The Smithy is a great learning device and it's not a toy - you can make useful stuff on it.

 

[txvwnut]

I second what Indy just posted.

My first ever type of machining tool was a Smithy 1220XL, it was purchased because I needed two machines and only had a budget for one. Mine was the MT-3 quill taper but the new ones are R-8. The MT-3 was the sole reason for getting rid of mine as I needed the ability to use R-8 tooling. I had that Smithy for over ten years and made a ton of money on it machining customers engines on and taking in the occasional oddball machining job. If you are tight on space and budget a 3-in-1 machine will do well for you. Does it have it limitations, yes. But it also comes down to what the operator can do and how you setup your machining process.

I now have separate machines but still wish I had that little Smithy sitting in the shop.

 

[astroracer]

X3 on the "Smithy is good" vibe. I've been using mine nearly every day since '92. I cut my teeth on the Combo and have since added a stand-a-lone mill to the shop.

Was the Smithy a good investment? Hell yes, it ran production on a **** load of model car parts for nearly 15 years and is still my go-to machine for off hand lathe work. I have a similar sized Jet that does the threading and any work needed when I don't want to bust down the set-up on the Smithy.
I will whole heartedly recommend going with a Combo as a first machine. is it perfect? No. Is it a bit of a pain to swap between applications, yea. BUT it is a start and it will get you thinking along the lines of a machinist without filling your shop with tools you may never use.
Mark

 

[JordonMusser]

Thanks guys, good advice here. I definitely understand the value of larger separate machines if I was using it regularly, or to really make parts.

It looks like in my budget I could get the Smithy 3 in 1, or a Grizzly G0705 and a G0602 . Other than the physical machining envelope, are there other advantages? I don't have enough experience to know better

If I have the room, I assume I would be better off with those two tools vs the 3 in 1? Spec to spec they seem to do more unless I am missing something.

ultimately I will have to decide if I want to give up the extra floor space.

And thanks for sharing the other options besides grizzly/smithy. Ill look at those as well.

 

[pmason0]

I always here having two separate machines, about a year ago I bought a G0759 mill and just the other week I bought a used Enco lathe really cheap, from someone I knew. Just trying to set it up.
Have fun.

 

[kmacht]

I can't speak for the Smithy but my first machine was a Grizzly G4015Z 3 in 1. I could do serviceable work on it but it was always a pain. In order to facilitate enough clearance for milling they put spindle and cross slide of the lathe high up off the bed. It was fine with aluminum parts but any moderate cuts in steel you would get some serious chatter. The mill head was also mounted on a round column so it could be swung out of the way when using the lathe. The problem is that the locking mechanism for the column relied on a screw and friction. Taking a moderate cut on the mill always ended up with the head moving slightly. It made precision work difficult or time consuming. The other thing I didn't care for was the mill head took Morse 3 taper tooling. It can be found but was always much more expensive than similar R8 tooling. I ended up selling it and buying a 9" southbend and Bridgeport. They are probably bigger than you are looking for though. The one lathe that I have owned that surprised me was the grizzly mini-lathe. Harbor fright and a number of other places sell different colors of the same lathe. As long as you were good with a limited work envelope the lathe was pretty capable. If I were you I would look into the enco 9x20 lathe and the Grizzly G0704 mill. That will leave you with a bit of money left over for tooling.

Keith

 

[E.Marquez]

I bought a used Smithy Midas 1220 XLT about 7 years ago for a nice price and a long drive to a boarder town to get it.

I have since spent 5 times purchase price on tooling and such.
I make or modify parts with it a few times a month or more.

It is a better lathe than mil... but light milling it can do.

For what I do, it was a good investment, I want to expand my capabilities so I am looking to purchase a Bridgeport mil and larger lathe... I will likely keep the 1220XLT as it just plain does the job...and I already own it, and a lot of tooling for it which will not swap over to a larger platform.

Bushings, spacers, press plates, caps, knobs, pins, ect are a common thing for me to make weekly, and the cost and time it would take to farm that out is way more then the total I have invested so far.

I do a custom lighted flywheel for the Honda VTR1000F, I have cut down more then a 100 and sent them all across the use and a dozen non US countries.

I made a billet aluminum filter fuel screen for ford in tank fuel pick to replace the plastic ones that commonly fail..up a year ago...that was fun..

I milled and precision drilled a Stainless steel mount for a three alternate set up for an Audio competition friend of mine last month.. that was a mil taxing part to produce... it was done, but not in finish quality i prefer and it was SLOW in process.

If you have questions on the Smithy series of 3-1 Im reasonable knowledgeable on the largest current version of the 1220, and am part of a Yahoo group of Smithy owners where there is a vast amount of experience on all of the line up, old and current.

So if you have a Smithy specific question, Ask....

If you are told they are Chinese junk and cant not produce quality working parts to tolerance......I have a lot of parts to prove them wrong, and access to write ups and pics of 10s of thousands of parts built on Smith's to prove them wrong as well.

Erik

I am looking at buying either a Smithy 3 in 1, or a smaller Lathe and Mill from Grizzly or Smithy.

Budget is around $3k total (flexible).

Will be used only for 1 off parts, and at most a couple times a month. One of those "when you need it, you need it!". anything bigger/complex Ill farm out to a real machine shop.

Typical parts are spacers/etc and odds/ends for race cars. Nothing huge.

I have trouble making a decision because I am not that experienced. as an engineer I have played with manual mills/lathes and designed hundreds of parts built on CNC, but I am far from a machinest.

Anybody with experience have a suggestions? I have the room for a small lathe and a smaller mill, the price range pretty much dictates the size.

I dont expect to need to switch back and forth b/w mill-lathe often, as I wont really be designing/building parts.. more modification than anything else. Facing welded parts on the mill, spacers, etc.

Thanks for any input..

 

[rmack898]

I will also echo what others have said. Many years ago I bought a Smithy 1324 Granite and made many quality parts with it. Fit and finish right out of the box was a few levels above what most other mainland China machines were at the time.

Like Erik said, it is a much better lathe than it is a mill. Actually it was a pretty damn good lathe. Smithy has a starter tooling package that will get you going with the basics but be prepared to spend a lot more money on tooling. A QC tool post is a must.

The lathe is more capable than any Atlas or Craftsmen. When I moved up to a bigger lathe and mill, I sold the Smithy for damn near what I paid for it.

 

[billspit]

You never see used Smithys for sale around here.

 

[spfrazierjr]

I have the lathe portion of a Smithy 1220LTD. I picked it up cheap on craigslist as "parts" and it works well as just a lathe. The good thing about the LTD is that you can pass 1 inch stock through the spindle. Most small 9x20 lathes can only pass .750 stock. I can't speak to the milling side of it as mine doesn't have the mill head.

Having said that, if you have the room then 2 machines would be my choice.

 

[tlmartin84]

I will Second checking into Precision Mathews.

Good service, and on a combo deal they will wheel and deal some.

 

[ilovevocs]

From a guy who owns a 3 in 1 I echo the “buy separates” comments.

It’s a real PITA to square and mount the vise / compound every time you change operations.

At first I was fine but as soon as I started making more complex parts it got old real fast. The only upside is I’m really fast at squaring a vise now...

Thought about machining a piece for the t-slot and pinning the vise to make Setup faster but need a bigger mill to do it.

Th absence of knee means your always struggling with setups as well. The machines aren’t really ridged enough to produce quality work milling with the quill all the way out. I’m always stacking things up on 1,2,3 blocks and such.

If your going to perform drilling operations you have to find just the right length drill bit to work once you mount a vise.


I bought my 3 in 1 for the same reason you did. My next shop upgrade is going to be old American iron.

Since owning the import 3in1 I now feel confident enough to buy used. Prior to this I didn’t have the knowledge or expertise to know what I was even looking at.


I have more invested in tooling, measuring, and layout equipment than the 3 in 1 itself. It’s easy to do.

I suggest you google search “MIT machine shop videos” and watch the entire series. It’s very beneficial material.

 

[zmotorsports]

There is a lot of hate towards the Smithy (or any of the 3 in 1 machines) but to be honest, I had my Smithy for nearly 16 years and made not only a lot of small one-off parts but also made a fair bit of money with it. I am not, nor have I ever been a machinist. I am/have been a mechanic that just wanted to do more of his own work in house and not have to farm out work so I learned how to do basic machining by doing. I bought the little larger sized Smithy, the older model 1239 but I don't think they have made it for quite some time now. It had 12" swing and was 39" between centers.

I had originally purchased it to support my racing interests but then found myself machining parts for other people until about 3 or so years ago ended up selling it and purchasing dedicated lathe and mill to expand my capabilities. The Smithy was a good learning tool and when I went to sell it the unit sold quickly. I had a friend who wanted it as soon as I mentioned I was thinking about upgrading.

Like others have already touched on, it was a much better lathe than it was a mill but it was workable and once you know the machines shortcomings you can work around or with them but it does take a bit of getting to know the machine. In my opinion it was a PITA to cut threads on due to the change gear design vs. a Norton gearbox or quick change gear box.

If you have the opportunity to get separate lathe and mill I think you will be much happier but if space is limited and you aren't going to be doing a ton of machining the 3 in 1's are a nice compromise and can be very a very productive piece of equipment in the home shop.

 

[zmotorsports]

On a side note, if you decide to look at separate machines, give Matt a call @ Precision Mathews. He is great to work with and has a lot of machine choices to choose from that would more than likely fit your needs.

 

[IndyGarage]

Thanks guys, good advice here. I definitely understand the value of larger separate machines if I was using it regularly, or to really make parts.

It looks like in my budget I could get the Smithy 3 in 1, or a Grizzly G0705 and a G0602 . Other than the physical machining envelope, are there other advantages? I don't have enough experience to know better

If I have the room, I assume I would be better off with those two tools vs the 3 in 1? Spec to spec they seem to do more unless I am missing something.

ultimately I will have to decide if I want to give up the extra floor space.

And thanks for sharing the other options besides grizzly/smithy. Ill look at those as well.

Regarding Grizzly, personally I think Grizzly is a step down in quality from Smithy. When I first bought a stand alone mill I bought a used Grizzly. It was a benchtop model that had its own metal stand. I would say it was OK, not great. It was better than the Smithy milling setup, but not in the same league as a Bridgeport.

If I were going for stand alone equipment for a beginner, I would find a small stand alone lathe - south bend, atlas or something like that with as much tooling as I could find. And then I would locate a small Bridgeport mill in decent shape - even an older M-head Bridgeport would be fine, although some of them had oddball spindles and you really want an R-8 if you can get one. If you have to go M-head, see if you can match the spindle of your mill with the tailstock of your lathe.

On the subject of tooling, I would choose a used machine with a bunch of tooling over a new machine with no tooling any day of the week. You will very quickly find that the tooling you will want costs more than the machine did.

Ideally you find some older retired guy, or his heirs with a couple machines in good shape and all tooled up for many kinds of projects - I see them every once in awhile - if you see that, jump on it.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I'm taking manual machining classes right now with the intent of purchasing a mill and lathe sometime next year. I have zero interest in a combo machine after using "full size" machines. I was making a part last night on a larger benchtop mill with a knee, and there is no way I'd want to go with anything smaller than that, or with anything without a knee. I had a Sieg mini-mill at one point and it's working window was so small that I quickly got tired of it and sold it for a regular drill press. Like Mike and David, I'll be going with Precision Matthews machines as my research shows their quality and service is slightly better than the other brand name imports. I have zero experience with the Smithy, but I'd hate to spend all that money on tooling just to have to spend the same money (or likely more) on tooling up for a larger machine down the road.

 

[gte718p]

The 704 is better then the 705 mill at about the same price though it is slightly smaller. The square column gives you more rigidity and makes setup easier.

It doesn't look like the Smithy is R8 tooling. That significantly reduces what is available in terms of tooling, and makes it more expensive. If you do upgrade later, and a lot of people do, your tooling will not transfer.

The main difference is the work envelop. It comes into play more often then you might think. When you need to start doing fixture the small table gets used up quickly.

The head on the 3 in 1 machines does not move up and down. As a result you are always limited by the quill. Most of the time the quill will be very extended which reduces the rigidity of the machine. A general rule of thumb is you want as little quill sticking out as possible.

Everyone is absolutely right you can do good work on the smithy machine. I started on a 3 in 1 machine in college. I made great parts on it. It is just a lot harder to setup and much more difficult then on the dedicated machines. If you are not space and budget limited there is not reason to make the sacrifices.

 

[Mickm]

I will chime in also. I am an engineer and graduate of machining school.
I have had a Smithy 1324 Granite for several years and do with it exactly what you describe.
I have built several custom cars with many one-off parts, all made on my Smithy.

As others have said the lathe is better than the mill but still more than adequate if you take smaller passes.

My only advice is would be to read the manual that it comes with and take your time and get everything aligned and set up properly. I have to believe most who have issues with the Smithy didn't take the time to do this.

I hope this helps,

 

[Kevin54]

I've been a T&D maker for over 30 years. Believe me.....If you are wanting to buy something to make one off parts, buy a Bridgeport mill. You will use it more than a lathe.

 

[My Old Tools]

Drive a little and get better stuff....tooled up Logan in Shreveport.

https://shreveport.craigslist.org/tls/d/logan-modelmetal-lathe-1600/6378823681.html

If you really want a combo...
https://tulsa.craigslist.org/tls/d/grizzly-lathe-mill-combo/6375207051.html

 

[Ign]

Separate machines are always better. You waste a lot of time, and add a bunch of frustration, having to swap from one to the other all the time.

Also, the "combination" machines always have a lot of shortcomings; things like a really narrow "throat" (the distance between the mill spindle and the lathe headstock) an undersized mill table (they're usually undersized so they don't interfere too much with the mill travel) and wonky controls (awkwardly-located handles, hard-to-read dials, etc.)

Even with mini/desktop machines, you'd be much better off two two separate machines, rather than one big combo machine.

Doc.

I totally agree and I'm not gonna comment further 'cause the Smithy-type lovers always get really hurt.

.........BUT if I had to have a combo machine...........and if I didn't first kill myself because of this restriction...............I've always been fascinated by Grizzly's approach of a taking a legit (relative term) lathe and slapping an entirely separate head/spindle/quill over the ways. This is the only way that makes sense to me vs trying to combine the headstock and mill head. If you added a DRO you'd really be stylin'

Example:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-...791?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com

Taper here is R8 according to specs

 

[dr_clyde]

I am in the "buy separate machines" category. 3k is a good budget for some real tools. You can buy a very decent engine lathe and a good mill for that money. I bought a South Bend "Heavy 10" for $800 recently, and a local machinery sales guy routinely has J head bridgeports for under 1k.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I am in the "buy separate machines" category. 3k is a good budget for some real tools. You can buy a very decent engine lathe and a good mill for that money. I bought a South Bend "Heavy 10" for $800 recently, and a local machinery sales guy routinely has J head bridgeports for under 1k.

To be fair, you live in an area that is loaded with old iron, those deals don't come up here in AZ. Additionally, 99% of people buying their first machine couldn't tell you what kind of condition it's in or the cost to repair it.

 

[BoneChop]

As a matter of fact, my dad has an older 3 n 1 Smithy I beleive he would part with....
PM me

 

[stioc]

I recently (earlier this year. I have a couple of threads here about my stuff) went through the same decision and had the same exact need (more of an itch to learn machining and hopefully making useful things with them). I bought a used RF45 mill and a G4000 9x20 lathe.

The RF45 mill has a great Android based DRO and I paid about $1k for it. It has plenty of power, capacity. I have zero complaints.
The G4000 was bought new, I paid about $1300 or so out the door. It's an awesome lathe. I didn't want the variable control ones in the similar range because this one by comparison is built like a tank and will last my lifetime. However, here I wish I'd gotten a bigger one (and I'll probably do that when I have more room) something more powerful so I could take deeper cuts and fewer passes. Still for the price and the occasional use it serves its purpose well without occupying a lot of space.

The tooling between the two cost me almost $600-800 right away. I mean I could've gotten a bunch of it later as the needs arose but I wanted to get most common tooling from the get-go.